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Why does NATO work out troop transfer to Eastern Europe

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Jak Fraam

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In February, NATO’s Defender of Europe 2020 exercises, the largest in 25 years, will begin in Europe. In total, 37 thousand soldiers from 19 countries will take part in them.
The official goal of the maneuvers is to work out the expeditious transfer of American troops to the countries of Eastern Europe. The European theater of operations will cover 10 states - Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, the Czech Republic, Italy and Georgia.
Experts believe that the administration of US President Donald Trump, pushing the Allies to form a logistic structure for military equipment, can help create a hotbed of tension in Europe, which in the event of a military conflict, European countries will suffer.

Washington and NATO are striving to militarize the region under the guise of exercises, and the deployment of the American contingent may involve not only educational, but also offensive goals. But not only Europeans face the threat of hostilities, which are less and less like defensive ones. United States troops take part in exercises whose conditions are close to military: away from their land, on foreign territory.
Several divisions thrown by the United States to defend Europe cannot be a determining factor in the event of a conflict with Russia. And provoking the situation can lead to global consequences when European countries are exposed to a real threat. Moreover, the risk of accidental conflicts increases manifold, against the backdrop of a statement by US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who commented on a missile attack in Iraq and the death of an Iranian general with the words “the destruction of Suleimani is an example of a new US strategy.” Not only Poland and Georgia, which voluntarily became a target to please American patrons, but also the whole of Europe, may be under attack.
At the same time, the US is trying in every possible way to show that they are the guarantor of European security, although they are not doing it for free. Experts emphasized that the president of America calls the help to protect allies a service, and to provide it for free is “bad business” for Americans. The head of the White House is demanding that NATO member countries increase military spending to 2% of GDP and increase the pay for American forces located on their territory.

Most of the nearly 80 thousand American military contingent in Europe is located in Germany and amounts to approximately 35 thousand. In Germany, Americans occupy the territory of the Ramstein air base, which became the headquarters of the US Air Force in Europe, and the Landstuhl medical center. Their maintenance costs the Germans about $ 1 billion annually. Another 12 thousand American soldiers are in Italy, 8 thousand in the UK, 3 thousand in Spain. The Allies pay America a total of almost $ 2.5 billion for the deployment of American troops on their territories.

Nevertheless, there is a split in NATO, and even with the assistance of America, the bloc’s allies sound protests. German Die Welt quotes Bundestag deputy from the Left Party Alexander Noah: “These exercises are a new planned provocation against Russia, which will lead to retaliatory steps by Moscow.” Left-wing politicians in the parliament of Saxony also consider: “This large-scale exercise is a provocation against Russia and a huge waste of money and resources.”
 
Jak Fraam said:
In February, NATO’s Defender of Europe 2020 exercises, the largest in 25 years, will begin in Europe.

~snipped to free up space~
Click to expand...

I don't know how old you are...perhaps you are too young to remember...but there was a time when all of the Western European countries, with a few exceptions like Switzerland, were very happy to have US forces present to provide a speed bump if the Soviet Union ever decided to invade. Since the Cold War ended, though, there is virtually zero danger. Russia simply doesn't have the ability to mount an invasion into Europe. Heck, they didn't even invade Ukraine...rather, they used mercenaries and locals. So don't worry. The Russian skies won't be falling on you anytime soon.

As far as "the US is trying in every possible way to show that they are the guarantor of European security", believe me...we are getting to the point where we'd just as soon tell you to take care of yourself. But, for some reason...I suspect money...the EU insists on keeping NATO going even though the Soviet threat is a thing of the past.

Now...let's talk about Germany, eh? Here is an article, with some actual numbers, from back in 2013. (this isn't a new issue, you know)

The size of the U.S. force in Germany is expected to drop in the coming year as the Army plans to deactivate one brigade combat team next year and possibly reduce the force even further with a cut of around 2,500 soldiers. Currently, the U.S. has 48,000 active-duty personnel in Germany at a cost of $4 billion.

The amount does not include military personnel costs of $3.9 billion.

The troop reductions — the Army already deactivated one heavy brigade combat team in October 2012 — have resulted in excess military facilities. However, instead of getting cash for the buildings, the U.S. has been negotiating residual value, in-kind payments of services or facilities with a cash value.

Cash payments would be placed in an account and only used for maintenance, repair and environmental restoration. In-kind payments can be directed to military construction.

The committee identified some questionable military construction projects from this arrangement. About $200,000 of residual value, in-kind payments were directed to add sunrooms to senior officer homes in Stuttgart, Germany, in 2007.

“Before the 200-square-foot additions, the homes were each 2,490 square feet, well above DoD’s minimum size standard,” the report said.

The report found that the U.S. has negotiated the return of more than 100 facilities to Germany since 2005, yet they haven’t been included in the residual value settlements between the two countries. Their current value is nearly $1.1 billion.

Report: US Paying Billions More For Military Bases Overseas Despite Troop Reductions – CBS DC
Click to expand...

You complain about Germany paying about a billion a year when the US is paying four times that amount...and paying it to Germany...to protect Germany and all of Europe. Perhaps you would rather the US leave...and leave it up to Germany to pay for their own security? If so, you should know that the EU and NATO disagree with you. They like that American cash.

Oh...and that "2% of GDP" thing? That's something that ALL of the NATO countries agreed to...years ago...and very few have worked towards. Germany is one of those countries who have ignored the goal they agreed to. Perhaps Germany should abide by their own promises before complaining about the US, eh? And, perhaps all of Europe should realize that the days of depending on Uncle Sam for your own financial and national security...without paying for it...are coming to an end.

And finally...you should find more knowledgeable "experts". You know...ones who speak honestly and factually about Trump's intentions. He is NOT "striving to militarize the region". That simply isn't his style. He is more inclined to use economic warfare tactics to protect the European west from possible Russian intentions. For example, one of the first things he did after his inauguration was to make a deal with Poland for them to stop buying LNG from Russia and start buying it from the US.

By the way, since then, Poland has asked the US to establish military installations in their country. Perhaps the Poles have realized that it's not Germany at risk anymore...but themselves. Perhaps the Poles welcome these upcoming NATO exercises.
 
Saying that there is a split in opinion on this exercise because the Germans dont want to pay is a stretch....the Germans NEVER want to put money into any military effort, at home or with NATO. America has let them get away with it for decades, so of course they dont see any reason to change.
 
Jak Fraam said:
In February, NATO’s Defender of Europe 2020 exercises, the largest in 25 years, will begin in Europe. In total, 37 thousand soldiers from 19 countries will take part in them.
The official goal of the maneuvers is to work out the expeditious transfer of American troops to the countries of Eastern Europe. The European theater of operations will cover 10 states - Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, the Czech Republic, Italy and Georgia.
Experts believe that the administration of US President Donald Trump, pushing the Allies to form a logistic structure for military equipment, can help create a hotbed of tension in Europe, which in the event of a military conflict, European countries will suffer.

Washington and NATO are striving to militarize the region under the guise of exercises, and the deployment of the American contingent may involve not only educational, but also offensive goals. But not only Europeans face the threat of hostilities, which are less and less like defensive ones. United States troops take part in exercises whose conditions are close to military: away from their land, on foreign territory.
Several divisions thrown by the United States to defend Europe cannot be a determining factor in the event of a conflict with Russia. And provoking the situation can lead to global consequences when European countries are exposed to a real threat. Moreover, the risk of accidental conflicts increases manifold, against the backdrop of a statement by US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who commented on a missile attack in Iraq and the death of an Iranian general with the words “the destruction of Suleimani is an example of a new US strategy.” Not only Poland and Georgia, which voluntarily became a target to please American patrons, but also the whole of Europe, may be under attack.
At the same time, the US is trying in every possible way to show that they are the guarantor of European security, although they are not doing it for free. Experts emphasized that the president of America calls the help to protect allies a service, and to provide it for free is “bad business” for Americans. The head of the White House is demanding that NATO member countries increase military spending to 2% of GDP and increase the pay for American forces located on their territory.

Most of the nearly 80 thousand American military contingent in Europe is located in Germany and amounts to approximately 35 thousand. In Germany, Americans occupy the territory of the Ramstein air base, which became the headquarters of the US Air Force in Europe, and the Landstuhl medical center. Their maintenance costs the Germans about $ 1 billion annually. Another 12 thousand American soldiers are in Italy, 8 thousand in the UK, 3 thousand in Spain. The Allies pay America a total of almost $ 2.5 billion for the deployment of American troops on their territories.

Nevertheless, there is a split in NATO, and even with the assistance of America, the bloc’s allies sound protests. German Die Welt quotes Bundestag deputy from the Left Party Alexander Noah: “These exercises are a new planned provocation against Russia, which will lead to retaliatory steps by Moscow.” Left-wing politicians in the parliament of Saxony also consider: “This large-scale exercise is a provocation against Russia and a huge waste of money and resources.”
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The US pays Germany about a billion a year for the lease on Ramstien. The air base generates a lot of money for the local economy, and employs hundreds of German workers as well. This offsets Germany's cost.....something that you conveniently left out of your post.

Try harder.
 
Mycroft said:
I don't know how old you are...perhaps you are too young to remember...but there was a time when all of the Western European countries, with a few exceptions like Switzerland, were very happy to have US forces present to provide a speed bump if the Soviet Union ever decided to invade. Since the Cold War ended, though, there is virtually zero danger. Russia simply doesn't have the ability to mount an invasion into Europe. Heck, they didn't even invade Ukraine...rather, they used mercenaries and locals. So don't worry. The Russian skies won't be falling on you anytime soon. perhaps all of Europe should realize that the days of depending on Uncle Sam for your own financial and national security...without paying for it...are coming to an end. By the way, since then, Poland has asked the US to establish military installations in their country. Perhaps the Poles have realized that it's not Germany at risk anymore...but themselves. Perhaps the Poles welcome these upcoming NATO exercises.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are too old and mired in the past. I too served during the two Germany era. I was in the 3/36th Inf, 1st BDE, 3AD stationed at 'The Rock'. I was part of the 'speed bump'. I recall conscription for Germany long after we went all volunteer. Their units cost far less to field for a variety of reasons. I remember training with them, sharing major training areas with them, admiring their Marders while riding in our far inferior 113's.

While many try and claim our presence in Germany is a financial benefit for the 'host' countries fact is the amount, though important to a relative few, is a very small nit to the average German.

Lets bet a bit more honest, we wanted NATO for economic reasons, we feared losing the tremendous market once Europe became financially stable. We keep our German bases to help with our world wide 'national interest'. Germany was a safe, and somewhat isolated from the USofA, base for operations during our recent follies in the desert. We pay so much (not a lot when compared to our total military/security expenditure) because we NEED bases in Europe- from intel bases in England to major transportation and medical bases in Germany. Our speed bump role is now a tiny little pothole.

You mention Poland sees our troops as a deterrent to Russian aggression, yet also cite how limited the Russians are in obtaining Ukrainian territory. I'd suggest our token combat troop commitment in Poland is more a hostage move than a true shield. Does Poland really feel a threat or did BushII and the Neo-Cons want to put pressure on Russia? We have an Armored BDE in Poland- less than my old BDE and far less of a speed bump than we had in Germany back in the day. No doubt Poland wants greenbacks poured into their government.

One mutual benefit you neglect is our strong reliance on Former East Bloc security guards around our myriad of governmental buildings in Iraq and Afghanistan. I knew quite a few 'contractors' who served as the last checkpoint security for many governmental compounds in both countries. There are dozens of 'other agency' compounds than just the 'green zone'. Now the security corporations use former Warsaw Pact guards at a fraction of the cost of my acquaintances.

The bottom line is simple enough, we don't invest one penny in a country we don't feel the strong need to do so. How many Sub-Saharan countries do we have token anti- terrorist forces? How many none at all? We are in Nato because we NEED to be, we WANT to be. Europe doesn't see the need for doubling their commitment because they don't want to project power outside their borders like we do.
 
notquiteright said:
Perhaps you are too old and mired in the past. I too served during the two Germany era. I was in the 3/36th Inf, 1st BDE, 3AD stationed at 'The Rock'. I was part of the 'speed bump'. I recall conscription for Germany long after we went all volunteer. Their units cost far less to field for a variety of reasons. I remember training with them, sharing major training areas with them, admiring their Marders while riding in our far inferior 113's.

While many try and claim our presence in Germany is a financial benefit for the 'host' countries fact is the amount, though important to a relative few, is a very small nit to the average German.

Lets bet a bit more honest, we wanted NATO for economic reasons, we feared losing the tremendous market once Europe became financially stable. We keep our German bases to help with our world wide 'national interest'. Germany was a safe, and somewhat isolated from the USofA, base for operations during our recent follies in the desert. We pay so much (not a lot when compared to our total military/security expenditure) because we NEED bases in Europe- from intel bases in England to major transportation and medical bases in Germany. Our speed bump role is now a tiny little pothole.

You mention Poland sees our troops as a deterrent to Russian aggression, yet also cite how limited the Russians are in obtaining Ukrainian territory. I'd suggest our token combat troop commitment in Poland is more a hostage move than a true shield. Does Poland really feel a threat or did BushII and the Neo-Cons want to put pressure on Russia? We have an Armored BDE in Poland- less than my old BDE and far less of a speed bump than we had in Germany back in the day. No doubt Poland wants greenbacks poured into their government.

One mutual benefit you neglect is our strong reliance on Former East Bloc security guards around our myriad of governmental buildings in Iraq and Afghanistan. I knew quite a few 'contractors' who served as the last checkpoint security for many governmental compounds in both countries. There are dozens of 'other agency' compounds than just the 'green zone'. Now the security corporations use former Warsaw Pact guards at a fraction of the cost of my acquaintances.

The bottom line is simple enough, we don't invest one penny in a country we don't feel the strong need to do so. How many Sub-Saharan countries do we have token anti- terrorist forces? How many none at all? We are in Nato because we NEED to be, we WANT to be. Europe doesn't see the need for doubling their commitment because they don't want to project power outside their borders like we do.
Click to expand...

And yet, when Trump says anything that can be hyperbolized and spun about the US leaving NATO, the Europeans have a **** fit.

Go figure...
 
RetiredUSN said:
The US pays Germany about a billion a year for the lease on Ramstien. The air base generates a lot of money for the local economy, and employs hundreds of German workers as well. This offsets Germany's cost.....something that you conveniently left out of your post. Try harder.
Click to expand...

Germany pays about the same amount to help support the base. What is 'a lot of money'- a billion dollars??? I'm sure a few Komrades like the money but does it really help the average German? You shouldn't confuse what the private sector makes with what tax payers spend. If the two were the same then our federal red ink wouldn't exist. ;)

Try harder.... :peace
 
Mycroft said:
And yet, when Trump says anything that can be hyperbolized and spun about the US leaving NATO, the Europeans have a **** fit. Go figure...
Click to expand...

Ahhh sure they do... :roll:

One thing The Don never needs is his tweets 'hyperbolized and spun'... the guy is a one man sound and fury machine... :peace
 
Last edited:
Donald Trump has made many more negative comments about America's European allies and NATO itself than he has made about the Russian Federation. The man is mercurial and difficult to trust. The U.S. Constitution gives the president whopping power over the armed services and Trump is the wrong man for the job.
 
In the Polish city of Leszno, a monument of gratitude to the Red army was dismantled. Moreover, the monument was located above the mass grave of soviet soldiers who died during the liberation of the city, whose remains were exhumed. I remember well how the poles said that "they will not touch the graves". The war on monuments in Poland has become a special kind of paranoia. But probably, not... the destruction of memory in Poland is a cold, planned, cynical calculation of political prostitutes.
 
notquiteright said:
Germany pays about the same amount to help support the base. What is 'a lot of money'- a billion dollars??? I'm sure a few Komrades like the money but does it really help the average German? You shouldn't confuse what the private sector makes with what tax payers spend. If the two were the same then our federal red ink wouldn't exist. ;)

Try harder.... :peace
Click to expand...

Germany gains more that it spends.

Try harder.
 
Ringo Stalin said:
In the Polish city of Leszno, a monument of gratitude to the Red army was dismantled. Moreover, the monument was located above the mass grave of soviet soldiers who died during the liberation of the city, whose remains were exhumed. I remember well how the poles said that "they will not touch the graves". The war on monuments in Poland has become a special kind of paranoia. But probably, not... the destruction of memory in Poland is a cold, planned, cynical calculation of political prostitutes.
Click to expand...

No doubt the Poles vividly remember the Russian KGB boot on their necks for decades. Being shipped off to gulags. 1945-1989 behind the Iron Curtain.

In Riga, Latvia there is a building (Brīvības iela 61) called “Stūra māja” (the Corner House). Today it is a muzeum. For many decades it was a KGB prison and torture house.

People don't forget.
 
Rogue Valley said:
No doubt the Poles vividly remember the Russian KGB boot on their necks for decades. Being shipped off to gulags. 1945-1989 behind the Iron Curtain.

In Riga, Latvia there is a building (Brīvības iela 61) called “Stūra māja” (the Corner House). Today it is a muzeum. For many decades it was a KGB prison and torture house.

People don't forget.
Click to expand...

As opposed to the Nazis, who shipped them off to death camps and slaughtered them in the millions.

People can and absolutely do forget, and the governments of Eastern Europe have turned revisionist history into an art form. All one has to do is look at the celebration of Nazi collaborators in the Baltic States— and the attempt to prosecute the partisans who fought them— to see that.
 
notquiteright said:
Germany pays about the same amount to help support the base. What is 'a lot of money'- a billion dollars??? I'm sure a few Komrades like the money but does it really help the average German? You shouldn't confuse what the private sector makes with what tax payers spend. If the two were the same then our federal red ink wouldn't exist. ;)

Try harder.... :peace
Click to expand...

OP's Quote:

Most of the nearly 80 thousand American military contingent in Europe is located in Germany and amounts to approximately 35 thousand. In Germany, Americans occupy the territory of the Ramstein air base, which became the headquarters of the US Air Force in Europe, and the Landstuhl medical center. Their maintenance costs the Germans about $ 1 billion annually. Another 12 thousand American soldiers are in Italy, 8 thousand in the UK, 3 thousand in Spain. The Allies pay America a total of almost $ 2.5 billion for the deployment of American troops on their territories.

German base leases(Costs).JPG

Germany get more than it's share in return for their expenses.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Who wrote them is not the point here.

What is important is doing what is fair for the host country, and the country leasing the base.
Click to expand...

It is valid to the point. The host country had to have its constitution approved by the country leasing the base and that constitution did what it could to minimise militarism in Germany. This also meant limiting German expenditure AND the forced establishment of huge semi-permanent bases that you seem to want the Germans to pay through the nose for.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
It is valid to the point. The host country had to have its constitution approved by the country leasing the base and that constitution did what it could to minimise militarism in Germany. This also meant limiting German expenditure AND the forced establishment of huge semi-permanent bases that you seem to want the Germans to pay through the nose for.
Click to expand...


The Germans are not paying through the nose.
 
Tigerace117 said:
As opposed to the Nazis, who shipped them off to death camps and slaughtered them in the millions.
.
Click to expand...

(c) From the Web
journalist Andrei Medvedev:
- If I had to speak in the Bundestag I probably said these words:
- Dear deputies. Today I saw a miracle. And this miracle is called Germany.
I went to you and looked at the beautiful streets of Berlin, at people, at wonderful monuments of architecture, and now I stand here and look at you. And I understand that all this is a miracle. That you were all born into the world and live in Germany.
Why do I think so? Because, given what your soldiers did in our occupied territories, the Red Army fighters had every moral right to destroy the entire German people. Leave a burnt field, ruins in place of Germany. And only paragraphs of textbooks would remind that there was once such a country. You probably do not remember all the details of the occupation, but this is not necessary. I just remind you of what the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS did with Soviet children. They were shot.
Often in front of parents. Or vice versa, they first shot at dad with mom, and then at the children.
Your soldiers raped the children. Children were burned alive. Sent to concentration camps. Where they took blood to make serum for your soldiers. Children were starved. Your shepherds bite the children to death. Children were used as targets. Children were brutally tortured just for fun.
Or here are two examples. Crying baby prevented the Wehrmacht officer from sleeping, he took him by the legs and smashed his head against the corner of the stove.
Your pilots at the Lychkovo station bombed a train which tried to take the children to the rear, and then your aces chased the frightened kids, shooting them in a bare field. Two thousand children were killed.
Only for what you did with the children, I repeat, the Red Army could completely destroy Germany with its inhabitants. It had full moral right. But didn’t.
Do I regret it? Of course not. I admire the steel will of my ancestors, who found some incredible strength in themselves, so as not to become the same beasts as the soldiers of the Wehrmacht. On the buckles of german soldiers it was written "God is with us." But they were the spawn of Hell and brought Hell to our land. The soldiers of the Red Army were Komsomol and Communists, but the soviet people turned out to be much more cordial than the inhabitants of enlightened religious Europe. And they did not take revenge.
They could understand that Hell cannot be defeated by Hell.
You should not apologize to us, because personally you are not to blame for anything. You cannot be responsible for your grandfathers and great-grandfathers. But I will tell you honestly - for me the germans are forever a stranger, an alien people. This is not because you are personally bad.
This in me screams the pain of children burnt by the Wehrmacht. And you will have to accept that at least my generation - for whom the memory of the war is the rewards of my grandfather, his scars, his front-line friends - will perceive you like that.
What will happen next, I do not know.
Perhaps, after us come mankurts who forget everything. And we have done a lot for this, we have done a lot of things ourselves, but I hope that not everything is lost for Russia.
Of course we need to cooperate. Russian and Germans. We need to solve problems together. Fight ISIS and build gas pipelines. But you have to accept one fact: we will never repent for our Great war. And even more so for our Great Victory. And even more so, before you. In any case, I repeat, my generation. Because then we saved not only ourselves. We have saved you from yourselves. And I don’t even know which is more important. ”
 
Ringo Stalin said:
(c) From the Web
journalist Andrei Medvedev:
- If I had to speak in the Bundestag I probably said these words:
- Dear deputies. Today I saw a miracle. And this miracle is called Germany.
I went to you and looked at the beautiful streets of Berlin, at people, at wonderful monuments of architecture, and now I stand here and look at you. And I understand that all this is a miracle. That you were all born into the world and live in Germany.
Why do I think so? Because, given what your soldiers did in our occupied territories, the Red Army fighters had every moral right to destroy the entire German people. Leave a burnt field, ruins in place of Germany. And only paragraphs of textbooks would remind that there was once such a country. You probably do not remember all the details of the occupation, but this is not necessary. I just remind you of what the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS did with Soviet children. They were shot.
Often in front of parents. Or vice versa, they first shot at dad with mom, and then at the children.
Your soldiers raped the children. Children were burned alive. Sent to concentration camps. Where they took blood to make serum for your soldiers. Children were starved. Your shepherds bite the children to death. Children were used as targets. Children were brutally tortured just for fun.
Or here are two examples. Crying baby prevented the Wehrmacht officer from sleeping, he took him by the legs and smashed his head against the corner of the stove.
Your pilots at the Lychkovo station bombed a train which tried to take the children to the rear, and then your aces chased the frightened kids, shooting them in a bare field. Two thousand children were killed.
Only for what you did with the children, I repeat, the Red Army could completely destroy Germany with its inhabitants. It had full moral right. But didn’t.
Do I regret it? Of course not. I admire the steel will of my ancestors, who found some incredible strength in themselves, so as not to become the same beasts as the soldiers of the Wehrmacht. On the buckles of german soldiers it was written "God is with us." But they were the spawn of Hell and brought Hell to our land. The soldiers of the Red Army were Komsomol and Communists, but the soviet people turned out to be much more cordial than the inhabitants of enlightened religious Europe. And they did not take revenge.
They could understand that Hell cannot be defeated by Hell.
You should not apologize to us, because personally you are not to blame for anything. You cannot be responsible for your grandfathers and great-grandfathers. But I will tell you honestly - for me the germans are forever a stranger, an alien people. This is not because you are personally bad.
This in me screams the pain of children burnt by the Wehrmacht. And you will have to accept that at least my generation - for whom the memory of the war is the rewards of my grandfather, his scars, his front-line friends - will perceive you like that.
What will happen next, I do not know.
Perhaps, after us come mankurts who forget everything. And we have done a lot for this, we have done a lot of things ourselves, but I hope that not everything is lost for Russia.
Of course we need to cooperate. Russian and Germans. We need to solve problems together. Fight ISIS and build gas pipelines. But you have to accept one fact: we will never repent for our Great war. And even more so for our Great Victory. And even more so, before you. In any case, I repeat, my generation. Because then we saved not only ourselves. We have saved you from yourselves. And I don’t even know which is more important. ”
Click to expand...

Lol. From someone who is using the "Stalin" surname. Murderer of millions.
 
RetiredUSN said:
The Germans are not paying through the nose.
Click to expand...

I didn't say they were paying financially through the nose but they do have a huge foreign power based on their land though in semi-permanent fashion.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Lol. From someone who is using the "Stalin" surname. Murderer of millions.
Click to expand...

The Nazis did murder millions. Considering what they did on the way east, it’s not exactly surprising that the Russians would want want payback for all their family members and loved ones slaughtered by the Nazis and their collaborators. It was Germany who started the ball rolling there.
 
Ringo Stalin said:
(c) From the Web
journalist Andrei Medvedev:
- If I had to speak in the Bundestag I probably said these words:
- Dear deputies. Today I saw a miracle. And this miracle is called Germany.
I went to you and looked at the beautiful streets of Berlin, at people, at wonderful monuments of architecture, and now I stand here and look at you. And I understand that all this is a miracle. That you were all born into the world and live in Germany.
Why do I think so? Because, given what your soldiers did in our occupied territories, the Red Army fighters had every moral right to destroy the entire German people. Leave a burnt field, ruins in place of Germany. And only paragraphs of textbooks would remind that there was once such a country. You probably do not remember all the details of the occupation, but this is not necessary. I just remind you of what the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS did with Soviet children. They were shot.
Often in front of parents. Or vice versa, they first shot at dad with mom, and then at the children.
Your soldiers raped the children. Children were burned alive. Sent to concentration camps. Where they took blood to make serum for your soldiers. Children were starved. Your shepherds bite the children to death. Children were used as targets. Children were brutally tortured just for fun.
Or here are two examples. Crying baby prevented the Wehrmacht officer from sleeping, he took him by the legs and smashed his head against the corner of the stove.
Your pilots at the Lychkovo station bombed a train which tried to take the children to the rear, and then your aces chased the frightened kids, shooting them in a bare field. Two thousand children were killed.
Only for what you did with the children, I repeat, the Red Army could completely destroy Germany with its inhabitants. It had full moral right. But didn’t.
Do I regret it? Of course not. I admire the steel will of my ancestors, who found some incredible strength in themselves, so as not to become the same beasts as the soldiers of the Wehrmacht. On the buckles of german soldiers it was written "God is with us." But they were the spawn of Hell and brought Hell to our land. The soldiers of the Red Army were Komsomol and Communists, but the soviet people turned out to be much more cordial than the inhabitants of enlightened religious Europe. And they did not take revenge.
They could understand that Hell cannot be defeated by Hell.
You should not apologize to us, because personally you are not to blame for anything. You cannot be responsible for your grandfathers and great-grandfathers. But I will tell you honestly - for me the germans are forever a stranger, an alien people. This is not because you are personally bad.
This in me screams the pain of children burnt by the Wehrmacht. And you will have to accept that at least my generation - for whom the memory of the war is the rewards of my grandfather, his scars, his front-line friends - will perceive you like that.
What will happen next, I do not know.
Perhaps, after us come mankurts who forget everything. And we have done a lot for this, we have done a lot of things ourselves, but I hope that not everything is lost for Russia.
Of course we need to cooperate. Russian and Germans. We need to solve problems together. Fight ISIS and build gas pipelines. But you have to accept one fact: we will never repent for our Great war. And even more so for our Great Victory. And even more so, before you. In any case, I repeat, my generation. Because then we saved not only ourselves. We have saved you from yourselves. And I don’t even know which is more important. ”
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Quite frankly I consider the USSR to have committed many despicable acts of its own, but they played a crucial role in saving Europe from Nazi domination, and to ignore that—to scorn that and celebrate nazi collaborators, as is popular in Eastern Europe, simply because they were “anti communist” is unacceptable.

The Nazis started a war of extermination and then reaped the whirlwind when they started losing and the Soviets came West. Do I feel bad for the German non-combatants? Of course. But maybe the Nazis should have thought about them before they started doing the exact same thing to the Russians for years with the help of their collaborators. There was no “clean Wehrmacht”, especially not on the Eastern Front.
 
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