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One machete crime every 90 minutes on Britain's streets

PoS said:
If you have any news links that contradict the stats that the Daily Mail is posting, please give us the link to them, because nobody (other than nutty libs) could care less about your silly opinions on the matter.
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The Daily Mail didn't present any statistics, they only reported conclusions. A reliable source would make the raw data available. I totally accept that knife-crime in general and use of machetes in particular are major and growing problems in parts of the UK, but I don’t think much of anything should be read in to that specific article alone.

PoS said:
I have already given links that show your arguments are wrong, so try and refute them with facts, if you dare.
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What arguments do you think I’m making? I stand by anything I’ve explicitly stated as being true, but I try to be clear with the exact context and definitions which are important not to overlook.
 
Ah, a crap thread by the other TAAC.
 
Godric1970 said:
England's streets Scotland has low and declining knife crimes ... that's what happens when you cut over 20,000 policemen over 10 years meanwhile Scotland's police numbers grew by 1,000 over the same period
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And all under a Conservative "Tough on on Crime" government!
Scotland, on the other hand, has treated knife crime as a public health issue for over a decade, and Glasgow, which has a 70 year history is no longer the "knife crime capital" of Europe. It's not the place where Edinburgh people go for a laugh, and come back in stitches any more!
 
PoS said:
You living under a rock? This is a common mantra among gun banners.
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I live at the end of a dirt road in one of the reddest states in the Republic. I have a 300 yard range in my front yard and at least once a month send a feral hog to it's just reward.

Please cite where 'gun' banners claim that a total firearm ban will make people safe.... not safer but completely safe.

Mantra away.... :peace
 
PoS said:
Silly, totally biased link, but I'll humor you:

Fact-check: How many gun deaths are there per day in the United States? - News - Austin American-Statesman - Austin, TX

According to this article about 100 gun deaths per day happens in the US, but America has got like 5 times the population of the UK. If we were to multiply the UK to the equivalent population to the US it would number about 90, so its almost the same.

And whereas in the UK violent crime is on the rise, it has fallen in the US:

5 facts about crime in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

So you fail.



You living under a rock? This is a common mantra among gun banners.
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Did you read the link that you slough off as biased?
You must have missed this...

Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

100 people are shot and killed
210 survive gun injuries
95 are injured in an attack
61 die from suicide
10 survive a suicide attempt
1 is killed unintentionally
90 are shot unintentionally
1 is killed by legal intervention
4 are shot by legal intervention
1 died but the intent was unknown
12 are shot but the intent was unknown

Agrees with your link, 100 deaths per day, 210 survive, 310 shootings per day. 71 are suicides and attempted suicides. Let's forget about 1 suicide so we have simpler numbers- 240 shootings per day, 10 per hour versus 1 machete crime per hour and a half. Crime, not death. That's 15 shootings in the US for each machete crime in the UK. 15 to 1 isn't the population ratio in the two countries.
Humour me again- who failed here?

And don't mistake me for a gun banner. I support the right of Americans to arm themselves anyway they see fit, just not their right to blatantly fudge numbers and twist facts.
 
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Grand Mal said:
Did you read the link that you slough off as biased?
You must have missed this...

Every day, 310 people are shot in the United States. Among those:

100 people are shot and killed
210 survive gun injuries
95 are injured in an attack
61 die from suicide
10 survive a suicide attempt
1 is killed unintentionally
90 are shot unintentionally
1 is killed by legal intervention
4 are shot by legal intervention
1 died but the intent was unknown
12 are shot but the intent was unknown

Agrees with your link, 100 deaths per day, 210 survive, 310 shootings per day. 71 are suicides and attempted suicides. Let's forget about 1 suicide so we have simpler numbers- 240 shootings per day, 10 per hour versus 1 machete crime per hour and a half. Crime, not death. That's 15 shootings in the US for each machete crime in the UK. 15 to 1 isn't the population ratio in the two countries.
Humour me again- who failed here?
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You did. You said:

Grand Mal said:
How many is that per day? 18? Theres 310 people shot every day in the US. 71 are suicides and suicide attempts so that's what, 240 compared to 18.
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240? That's a laugh.

And don't mistake me for a gun banner. I support the right of Americans to arm themselves anyway they see fit, just not their right to blatantly fudge numbers and twist facts.
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I was referring to another poster. Reading comprehension 101.

notquiteright said:
I live at the end of a dirt road in one of the reddest states in the Republic. I have a 300 yard range in my front yard and at least once a month send a feral hog to it's just reward.

Please cite where 'gun' banners claim that a total firearm ban will make people safe.... not safer but completely safe.

Mantra away.... :peace
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Gun laws make America safer | The Seattle Times

Rogue Valley said:
Ah, a crap thread by the other TAAC.
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Troll harder.

HonestJoe said:
The Daily Mail didn't present any statistics, they only reported conclusions. A reliable source would make the raw data available. I totally accept that knife-crime in general and use of machetes in particular are major and growing problems in parts of the UK, but I don’t think much of anything should be read in to that specific article alone.

What arguments do you think I’m making? I stand by anything I’ve explicitly stated as being true, but I try to be clear with the exact context and definitions which are important not to overlook.
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Youre making nonsensical arguments, thats what. You have failed to cite contradictory evidence as to what the Daily Mail is saying. Are you going to. or will it be just more word salad?
 
PoS said:
Youre making nonsensical arguments, thats what. You have failed to cite contradictory evidence as to what the Daily Mail is saying. Are you going to. or will it be just more word salad?
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What arguments exactly?

I never said anything directly contradicting the Daily Mail article, I only pointed out that it is inconsistent and unclear, bouncing between the phrases “machete crime” and “machete attack” and providing zero details on exactly what and who their FOI request asked. That article isn’t a reliable basis for any conclusions in any direction.

Anyway, none of that is relevant to the core assertion in your OP about people claiming that banning guns will make us safe.
 
PoS said:
Gun laws make America safer | The Seattle Times
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You do the typical 'gun' rubber dodge. I asked for 'banners' claiming it will make us SAFE.

The article NEVER says anything about banning all firearms, never said makes us safe (said SAFER)

Not my first rodeo on this rubber twisting of words to claim 'safe'.

I look forward to the day I can have an honest discussion about firearms and safety.

Today doesn't appear to be that day.... :peace
 
HonestJoe said:
What arguments exactly?

I never said anything directly contradicting the Daily Mail article, I only pointed out that it is inconsistent and unclear, bouncing between the phrases “machete crime” and “machete attack” and providing zero details on exactly what and who their FOI request asked. That article isn’t a reliable basis for any conclusions in any direction.
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So you just wasted my time, great. :roll:

Anyway, none of that is relevant to the core assertion in your OP about people claiming that banning guns will make us safe.
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It was a sarcastic assertion since that is a common refrain amongst gun banners.

notquiteright said:
You do the typical 'gun' rubber dodge. I asked for 'banners' claiming it will make us SAFE.

The article NEVER says anything about banning all firearms, never said makes us safe (said SAFER)

Not my first rodeo on this rubber twisting of words to claim 'safe'.

I look forward to the day I can have an honest discussion about firearms and safety.

Today doesn't appear to be that day.... :peace
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Safe? You do realize that the word safe doesnt necessarily mean 100% safe, which is what youre trying (and failing) to imply.

Its obvious this is the only way gun banners can maintain their nonsensical arguments- via a strawman fallacy, which is based on poor logic. Congrats on living up to the stereotype.
 
PoS said:
So you just wasted my time, great. :roll:


It was a sarcastic assertion since that is a common refrain amongst gun banners.



Safe? You do realize that the word safe doesnt necessarily mean 100% safe, which is what youre trying (and failing) to imply.

Its obvious this is the only way gun banners can maintain their nonsensical arguments- via a strawman fallacy, which is based on poor logic. Congrats on living up to the stereotype.
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What a funny word “Safe” is. You are safe from me if I was carrying a .50 cal machine gun or a .40 cal pistol and you were stranded on a deserted road. But you are not safe from assault with or without weapons in the bad part of town.

The fault lies with who holds the gun. We have a people problem.
 
PoS said:
So you just wasted my time, great. :roll:
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Only if you weren't honestly misled by the Daily Mail spin. My point in replying was to put the article you linked in a wider context. If you were already aware of that (but chose to ignore it) then I guess it would a be a waste of your time but I am more interested in making sure anyone else reading is aware of that context anyway.

As I said from the outset, if you (or anyone else) wants to have an actual serious discussion about the various topics raised here, it has to be done from the basis of accurate and honest information. If you weren't really looking for a serious discussion in the first place, it'd be you wasting all our time rather than the other way around.

PoS said:
It was a sarcastic assertion since that is a common refrain amongst gun banners.
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It isn't though. Again, nobody suggests banning guns will make us 100% safe, they'll only say safer.
 
PoS said:
You did. You said:



240? That's a laugh.


I was referring to another poster. Reading comprehension 101.



Gun laws make America safer | The Seattle Times



Troll harder.



Youre making nonsensical arguments, thats what. You have failed to cite contradictory evidence as to what the Daily Mail is saying. Are you going to. or will it be just more word salad?
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Laugh all you want. 240 people shot per day, not counting suicides and attempts versus 18 machete crimes. Not 18 people attacked, 18 crimes. There's probably no way of even counting gun crimes.
There's nowhere for you to go here. No way to fiddle the numbers, no room for spin. You need to just accept and acknowledge that the US is by far the most violent society in the developed first world. 18 machete crimes in Britain? Per day? What's the population ratio, 5 to one? The day there's fewer than 100 people shot in the US, not killed, just shot, that day we'll see how many were actually attacked in Britain, not threatened, not just possession, attacked, and take another look.
 
HonestJoe said:
As I said from the outset, if you (or anyone else) wants to have an actual serious discussion about the various topics raised here, it has to be done from the basis of accurate and honest information.
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What an ironic statement coming from you, since you have failed to put up any sort of data that refutes what the Daily Mail said. You have also failed to refute the data on increasing knife and machete attacks in England and Wales. So its clear you are not the one interested in any meaningful discussion.

notquiteright said:
I requote you to show your attempt to slippery eel out of this is weak at best. I asked who is the 'they' you point to? Best you can do is a report that says "SAFER" and no law will make us completely safe.... :doh

Who says ban 'guns' and people will be safe.... :peace
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Again you have proved your dishonesty, nowhere did I mention in my OP any sort of claim that "safe" means "100% safe." Its a single word youve latched onto and made it into a giant sized strawman.

Ive given you the link from the Seattle Times that proves my assertion, so the fail is on you.

Grand Mal said:
Laugh all you want. 240 people shot per day, not counting suicides and attempts versus 18 machete crimes. Not 18 people attacked, 18 crimes. There's probably no way of even counting gun crimes.
There's nowhere for you to go here. No way to fiddle the numbers, no room for spin. You need to just accept and acknowledge that the US is by far the most violent society in the developed first world. 18 machete crimes in Britain? Per day? What's the population ratio, 5 to one? The day there's fewer than 100 people shot in the US, not killed, just shot, that day we'll see how many were actually attacked in Britain, not threatened, not just possession, attacked, and take another look.
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LOL using stats from an anti-gunner blog site that was proven wrong only means youve doubled down on your fallacy, not to mention your hypocrisy.
 
PoS said:
What an ironic statement coming from you, since you have failed to put up any sort of data that refutes what the Daily Mail said. You have also failed to refute the data on increasing knife and machete attacks in England and Wales. So its clear you are not the one interested in any meaningful discussion.



Again you have proved your dishonesty, nowhere did I mention in my OP any sort of claim that "safe" means "100% safe." Its a single word youve latched onto and made it into a giant sized strawman.

Ive given you the link from the Seattle Times that proves my assertion, so the fail is on you.



LOL using stats from an anti-gunner blog site that was proven wrong only means youve doubled down on your fallacy, not to mention your hypocrisy.
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Proven wrong? Where? Those numbers come from the US government, the US Department of Health and Human Services

HCUPnet: A tool for identifying, tracking, and analyzing national hospital statistics

Do you even know what 'hypocrisy' means? Because there's no way it applies here.
 
PoS said:
Again you have proved your dishonesty, nowhere did I mention in my OP any sort of claim that "safe" means "100% safe." Its a single word youve latched onto and made it into a giant sized strawman. Ive given you the link from the Seattle Times that proves my assertion, so the fail is on you.
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Again you try and wiggle like most when caught trying to demean- you attempted a snide swipe at 'banners' claiming 'they say' bans will make us safe- Not SAFER but SAFE- I again ask WHO SAID THAT?????? :peace
 
Peter King said:
Let us think, one idiot with a machete versus cops leads to 1 dead machete wielding idiot

One idiot with an three Heckler & Koch HK416 with all the clips he wants in a body armor against the police leads to dead police officers, dead civilians and in due course 1 dead gun nut.

Still like the first one much better than the second situation.
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smart people understand that someone who goes to that level of preparation to slaughter others, will not obey a gun ban.
 
Rich2018 said:
Imagine the lives saved if all American mass shooters only had a knife...
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imagine a world full of unicorns where banning something actually means criminals cannot get it.
 
TurtleDude said:
smart people understand that someone who goes to that level of preparation to slaughter others, will not obey a gun ban.
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With an infinite number of firearms on the street it will be much more likely that someone will get himself a firearm than in a country with much much much lower firearms ownership.
 
ecofarm said:
Grand Mal said:
~ There's a culture of violence at work in the US that won't be exceeded anywhere else any time soon.
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You know the Iranian regime does not record the tens of thousands it slaughters every year?
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The error made was to say "anywhere else anytime soon." Even if you limit the search to the developed Western World you are back to a culture that is not found in other developed, western nations.

Case in point - the OP tries to laugh at "Britain" however if you compare gun homicides in the UK since 2010 to gun homicides in the USA you find a horrible comparison against the USA.
 
PoS said:
What an ironic statement coming from you, since you have failed to put up any sort of data that refutes what the Daily Mail said. You have also failed to refute the data on increasing knife and machete attacks in England and Wales. So its clear you are not the one interested in any meaningful discussion.
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I'm still not trying to refute what the Daily Mail reported and I'm not claiming there isn't a knife crime issue in the UK. What I am saying is that the Daily Mail doesn't provide any actual data, only conclusions and that tabloid has a long history of being unreliable. We don't know what or who they asked in their FOI requests and we don't know what the replies were. We still have no idea whether they actually asked about "attacks" or "crimes". Ultimately you'd need more evidence from better sources to reach any kind of conclusion, let alone the kind of conclusion you leapt to in the OP.
 
Grand Mal said:
Proven wrong? Where? Those numbers come from the US government, the US Department of Health and Human Services

HCUPnet: A tool for identifying, tracking, and analyzing national hospital statistics

Do you even know what 'hypocrisy' means? Because there's no way it applies here.
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You just linked to a homepage for healthcare. Looks like you truly lost the argument, and possibly your mind too.

notquiteright said:
Again you try and wiggle like most when caught trying to demean- you attempted a snide swipe at 'banners' claiming 'they say' bans will make us safe- Not SAFER but SAFE- I again ask WHO SAID THAT?????? :peace
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Doubling down on a strawman doesnt make you right, youre still wrong. The word safe has multiple meanings: Safe | Definition of Safe by Merriam-Webster

1 : free from harm or risk : unhurt

2a : secure from threat of danger, harm, or loss
b : successful at getting to a base in baseball without being put out

3 : affording safety or security from danger, risk, or difficulty

1 : a place or receptacle to keep articles (such as valuables) safe
2 : condom sense 1

But it seems in your world it only has one single meaning.

Does the word "ass" only mean donkey to you?

HonestJoe said:
I'm still not trying to refute what the Daily Mail reported and I'm not claiming there isn't a knife crime issue in the UK. What I am saying is that the Daily Mail doesn't provide any actual data, only conclusions and that tabloid has a long history of being unreliable. We don't know what or who they asked in their FOI requests and we don't know what the replies were. We still have no idea whether they actually asked about "attacks" or "crimes". Ultimately you'd need more evidence from better sources to reach any kind of conclusion, let alone the kind of conclusion you leapt to in the OP.
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If you want to refute the DM with data then please provide some. I have asked you time and again to come up with some facts, but you keep running away, why is that?
 
So what have we learned from this thread? That there are more gunshot victims per hour in the US than there are machete 'crimes' in the UK per hour - crime being anything down to possession in public, which is not an attack. I'll take that.
 
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