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Thread: Trump/NATO/London

  1. #11
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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Trump
    Climate change is very important to me. I've done many environmental impact statements over my life and I believe very strongly in very, very crystal clear, clean water and clean air. That's a big part of climate change.



    This is embarrassing.

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Snazzy View Post
    ~......................I'm not even going to entertain this comment.
    Then I suggest that you reconsider.

    There's a helluva lot of confusion over all these payments into NATO and the current US rhetoric has served only to add to it.

    As such the second biggest payer (after the US) INTO the NATO budget right now is not the UK (as is so often mistakenly assumed by it meeting the 2 pct of its GDP), but in fact Germany, despite being far from the 2 pct ceiling.

    Another issue of confusion that needs clearing up is that whatever percentage of respective GDP any member state invests into its defense spending, is automatically the investment into NATO.

    Now wrt to European members one may say that individual spending by percentage of GDP amounts to spending on NATO but even that is not true. Greece, for instance, often lauded as one that surpasses even the 2 pct of GDP currently demanded, has thus a military budget of (in real money) 4,23 billion Euros, most of it earmarked for defending itself against its Turkish arch-enemy.

    Compared to that of Germany (43,2 billion Euros) and the UK (40,1 billion Euros), that's a pittance.

    As regards the US defense budget of 716 billion bucks, one needs to get away from the BS that all this is NATO. For one thing Europe does not entertain a Pacific fleet nor bases all over the world, for another it does not engage in the tricks of financing all kinds of other activities that are either only remotely connected to NATO defense or not connected at all.

    The US currently invests 30 billion dollars for the defense of the NATO area (not to be confused with the NATO budget which is a completely different thing) and that sum pales in light of the 240 billion dollars that the Europeans reserve (again, not for the NATO budget but in overall defense spending).

    One has to get away from all this percent of GDP and talk in real money to see the actual picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by coldjoint View Post
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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why not? It is % of GDP. Estonia has a GDP of 25 billion. So 2% is 500 million. That is not even 5 F35s.
    500 million isn't a large amount to countries with GDPs in the trillions, and populations of 20+ million people.

    Estonia has a population not much over 1.3 million people.

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    Then I suggest that you reconsider.
    Valid points made here. Although my angle was more at 2% of GDP being relative to the output of a country.

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Snazzy View Post
    500 million isn't a large amount to countries with GDPs in the trillions, and populations of 20+ million people.

    Estonia has a population not much over 1.3 million people.
    500 millionis 2% for Estonia. With the price of weapons, spending 500 million even for a small country is pretty easy.

    Point is 2% goal is idiotic because it is based of GDP. Which means if GDP increases then a country is forced to spend more on the military even though there is no need.

    Look at Greece. You think that thier military spending has increased to 2%+? No, it is because thier GDP collapsed that they are meeting the goal.



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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    500 millionis 2% for Estonia. With the price of weapons, spending 500 million even for a small country is pretty easy.
    Spending €500 million on anything, let alone weapons certainly isn't "pretty easy" for a small country like Estonia. 2% of anything is relative to its size, which is my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Point is 2% goal is idiotic because it is based of GDP. Which means if GDP increases then a country is forced to spend more on the military even though there is no need.

    Look at Greece. You think that thier military spending has increased to 2%+? No, it is because thier GDP collapsed that they are meeting the goal.
    Your addressing different points altogether here.

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Snazzy View Post
    Spending 500 million on anything, let alone weapons certainly isn't "pretty easy" for a small country like Estonia. 2% of anything is relative to its size, which is my point.



    Your addressing different points altogether here.
    Spending 500 million is easy for Estonia because of expensive weapons.

    And it is not different points, it is THE point of the whole discussion of the 2%.

    Germany could easily spend 2% on the military, but on what? At some point you are just spending money for the sake of spending money. And you have to spend more and more because it. Is % of GDP and your GDP is going up... Absolutely idiotic.

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Spending 500 million is easy for Estonia because of expensive weapons.
    What are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And it is not different points, it is THE point of the whole discussion of the 2%.

    Germany could easily spend 2% on the military, but on what? At some point you are just spending money for the sake of spending money. And you have to spend more and more because it. Is % of GDP and your GDP is going up... Absolutely idiotic.
    Your points are about the "absolutely idiotic" system of fluctuations, which are different from the original point about small countries affording the 2% relative to their GDP. Regardless of fluctuations, 2% of a figure is still 2% of a figure regardless of the amount.

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Snazzy View Post
    What are you talking about?
    I am talking about the fact, that if Estonia buys one F35, they have already spent over 1/5 of the year budget of 2% of GDP. Hence it is pretty easy for a country like Estonia to meet the requirements of 2%.

    Your points are about the "absolutely idiotic" system of fluctuations, which are different from the original point about small countries affording the 2% relative to their GDP. Regardless of fluctuations, 2% of a figure is still 2% of a figure regardless of the amount.
    Okay lets do real numbers..

    Russia spends between 3 to 4% of its GDP on the military according to western intelligence agencies and experts. That is about 70 billion dollars.

    Germany spends 1.3% of its GDP on the military and that is about 50 billion dollars. 2% spending would take that to 74 billion dollars... more than Russia.

    France spends 1.7% of its GDP on the military and that is around 62 billion dollars. So for France to reach 2% they need to spend around 70 billion dollars.

    That is 2 members alone of NATO that spend together more than Russia, and are not meeting the 2% threshold that has been agreed. If they did, Germany alone would spend more.

    Those are real numbers, not arbitrary bull**** % of GDP numbers.

    So again why should any nation spend money on the military just to get to a magical 2% number that is always going up (pretty much), when there is no real need? Fact is that the NATO alliance outspends Russia by a lot...

    NATO military spending continues to dwarf that of Russia | Euronews

    Non US NATO spending is 300 billion a year... and we are afraid of Russia and its 70 billion a year? Come on..
    PeteEU

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    Re: Trump/NATO/London

    Quote Originally Posted by Snazzy View Post
    Valid points made here. Although my angle was more at 2% of GDP being relative to the output of a country.
    By which parameter some can afford an aircraft carrier while none of the Baltic states can. Let alone building the facilities to moor it.
    Quote Originally Posted by coldjoint View Post
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