• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

London Bridge Knife Attacks - Terrorism or Multiple Murder?

Serenity said:
A section of society will always be divided because they already hold bigoted views. For the many benefits that can be associated with Social Media, there are terrible negatives too. So many vulnerable people are targeted by various social media platforms and the digital environment with hateful propaganda. The ease of access to incorrect information and the speed at which incorrect information is shared, is very hard to counter. This is the world we live in unfortunately.

All we can do is stay true to ourselves and speak out when we see instances of unacceptable broad brushing. It's completely reasonable to refer to this as highly likely an act of terrorism based on the information to hand. It's not OK to somehow try and associate those actions to Muslims in general.

That's my position.
Click to expand...

Of course, on the other hand, the unmentionable but obvious bigotry of muslims who attack infidels. No bigotry at work there? No painting with a broad brush. No muslim social media endorsements. I could easily go on with the same repetitious garbage, but there are no excuses for a basic tenet of a religion that demands subjugation of all, every single living person on this earth, to the words of a false prophet. It isn't islam vs. Jews, islam vs. Christians, islam vs. Hindi, islam vs. Zoroastrians, islam vs. Buddhists, islam vs. animists, hell, damn everyone else. It is the heart and soul of bigotry, hate and preaching hate. A religion which needs to be put down like a rabid dog. That's not a broad brush, it is truth. An unassailable truth.

A garden is made of many flowers. There are no islamic flowers. Only poison plants.
 
Serenity said:
A section of society will always be divided because they already hold bigoted views. For the many benefits that can be associated with Social Media, there are terrible negatives too. So many vulnerable people are targeted by various social media platforms and the digital environment with hateful propaganda. The ease of access to incorrect information and the speed at which incorrect information is shared, is very hard to counter. This is the world we live in unfortunately.

All we can do is stay true to ourselves and speak out when we see instances of unacceptable broad brushing. It's completely reasonable to refer to this as highly likely an act of terrorism based on the information to hand. It's not OK to somehow try and associate those actions to Muslims in general.

That's my position.
Click to expand...

Islam is a supremely intolerant, absolutist and totalitarian all-embracing philosophy; its political aims and cruel legal system are primitive and incompatible with 'Western' civilised values.

That's my position.
 
Sweden said:
Islam is a supremely intolerant, absolutist and totalitarian all-embracing philosophy; its political aims and cruel legal system are primitive and incompatible with 'Western' civilised values.

That's my position.
Click to expand...

The overwhelming majority of muslims that live in the west live in peace
 
vegas giants said:
The overwhelming majority of muslims that live in the west live in peace
Click to expand...

A small majority of Muslims living in the UK admit to pollsters that they think the appropriate punishment for apostasy - leaving Islam - is death.
 
Sweden said:
A small majority of Muslims living in the UK admit to pollsters that they think the appropriate punishment for apostasy - leaving Islam - is death.
Click to expand...

And yet they do nothing about it and the vast vast majority live in peace
 
marke said:
Some brainwashing is permanent and cannot be cured by rehabilitation efforts.
Click to expand...

Depends on the rehabilitation efforts.

Personally, I think a good sturdy gallows soon remedy the permanently brainwashed.
 
Sweden said:
A small majority of Muslims living in the UK admit to pollsters that they think the appropriate punishment for apostasy - leaving Islam - is death.
Click to expand...

So this means they cease living in peace in the UK because of their views on apostasy?
 
OldFatGuy said:
Of course, on the other hand, the unmentionable but obvious bigotry of muslims who attack infidels. No bigotry at work there? No painting with a broad brush. No muslim social media endorsements. I could easily go on with the same repetitious garbage, but there are no excuses for a basic tenet of a religion that demands subjugation of all, every single living person on this earth, to the words of a false prophet. It isn't islam vs. Jews, islam vs. Christians, islam vs. Hindi, islam vs. Zoroastrians, islam vs. Buddhists, islam vs. animists, hell, damn everyone else. It is the heart and soul of bigotry, hate and preaching hate. A religion which needs to be put down like a rabid dog. That's not a broad brush, it is truth. An unassailable truth.

A garden is made of many flowers. There are no islamic flowers. Only poison plants.
Click to expand...

OFG:

Thank you for using the broadest of brushes upon all Muslims and their faith to make your incendiary and clearly prejudicial point.

Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
OFG:

Thank you for using the broadest of brushes upon all Muslims and their faith to make your incendiary and clearly prejudicial point.

Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

It wasn't a broad enough brush. No brush could be broad enough. Better had my rant been more explosive than merely incendiary. Hate breeds hate, and islamic hate had earned my hate a thousand times over. It isn't prejudicial, it is not before the fact. It is on fact, entirely judged as appropriately earned. Extremely timely, and not soon enough. Earned in the past and earned freshly with every new day. Do not belittle my hate by calling it prejudicial. It is a hate of now and tomorrow. Truly celebrate the tense. Islam is evil incarnate, my hate for islam will flourish as long as islam continues to exist, and to defend islam in any manner is evil.
 
OldFatGuy said:
It wasn't a broad enough brush. No brush could be broad enough. Better had my rant been more explosive than merely incendiary. Hate breeds hate, and islamic hate had earned my hate a thousand times over. It isn't prejudicial, it is not before the fact. It is on fact, entirely judged as appropriately earned. Extremely timely, and not soon enough. Earned in the past and earned freshly with every new day. Do not belittle my hate by calling it prejudicial. It is a hate of now and tomorrow. Truly celebrate the tense. Islam is evil incarnate, my hate for islam will flourish as long as islam continues to exist, and to defend islam in any manner is evil.
Click to expand...

OFG:

It is impossible to belittle someone who has already belittled themselves publicly so completely. So burn hot and fast in the fires of hate until the wretched flames consume you and burn away whatever modicum of humanity you may have left in you. Behold the credo of the American Taliban!

In short, "Yadda- yadda-yadda. I hate evil Muslims. Hear me roar from behind my keyboard."

Sheesh.
The apparently aptly named Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
OFG:

It is impossible to belittle someone who has already belittled themselves publicly so completely. So burn hot and fast in the fires of hate until the wretched flames consume you and burn away whatever modicum of humanity you may have left in you. Behold the credo of the American Taliban!

In short, Yadda- yadda-yadda. I hate evil Muslims. Hear me roar from behind my keyboard.

Sheesh.
The apparently aptly named Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

You don't get it. I am proud of my bigotry toward islam. I celebrate its, revel in it and see you as the enemy of all that is right and good. So f off. C'est le guerre.

Hear me roar everywhere, everyday, you are clueless.
 
OldFatGuy said:
You don't get it. I am proud of my bigotry toward islam. I celebrate its, revel in it and see you as the enemy of all that is right and good. So f off. C'est le guerre.

Hear me roar everywhere, everyday, you are clueless.
Click to expand...

OFG:

Oh, I get your bigotry and hate, I've seen its ilk in many damaged folk over the years. You're nothing special in that respect. So crow on cockerel of hate. Now I will leave you so that you can self-immolate in privacy.

Burn on.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
OFG:

Thank you for using the broadest of brushes upon all Muslims and their faith to make your incendiary and clearly prejudicial point.

Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

There is no broad brush at work. The Qur'an explicitly compares non-Muslims to donkeys who can carry books, but not understand them, and says preaching to non-Muslims is like talking to someone who can only hear shouts and whistles because they are deaf, dumb, and blind.

So, I was wrong. There is a broad brush, but it's the Qur'an that wields it.

Will you please at least acknowledge that?
 
Last edited:
Evilroddy said:
OFG:

Oh, I get your bigotry and hate, I've seen its ilk in many damaged folk over the years. You're nothing special in that respect. So crow on cockerel of hate. Now I will leave you so that you can self-immolate in privacy.

Burn on.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

You've seen nothing. I am not damaged as you so fantasize. My hate has been earned, whether you like it or not. It has been earned by the rotting corpses of islam's victims, whether you like it or not. Your false judgments mean nothing. Feel free to pimp for islam, your day is coming, whether you like it or not.
 
Snazzy said:
So this means they cease living in peace in the UK because of their views on apostasy?
Click to expand...

No it means Muslims continue to live in the UK and accept - well most of them - that it will not be possible to kill apostates until the time comes when they will be able to impose Shaia law.
 
Evilroddy said:
OFG:

Thank you for using the broadest of brushes upon all Muslims and their faith to make your incendiary and clearly prejudicial point.

Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Here are some specific examples of how the Qur'an uses the broadest of brushes upon all non-Muslims and their faith to make its incendiary and clearly prejudicial point:

- 7:176*"A person who follows his own lust is like a dog: if you attack him he pants with his tongue out, and if you leave him he pants with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of people who deny Our verses"
- 7:179*"They [unbelievers] are worse than lost cattle"
- 70:42*"So leave them to plunge in vain talk and play about, until they meet their Day which they are promised"
- 80:42*"they who are unbelievers, the wicked"
- 39:32*"Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning Allah, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers"?
- 40:10*"The disbelievers will be told, 'God's hatred towards you is much greater than your hatred of your own selves'".
- 7:177*"How evil an example are people who denied Our signs and used to wrong themselves"
- 19:86*"and drive the evildoers [followers of Satan] into Hell"
- 19:88-89*"They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son.*Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous"!
- 41:26-28 "The Unbelievers say: 'Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that you may gain the upper hand'.*But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.*That is the reward of Allah's enemies: the Fire. Therein is their immortal home, payment forasmuch as they denied Our revelations".

There are many hundreds of such verses. The denigration of non-Muslims is relentless. There's your broad brush.
 
stevecanuck said:
Here are some specific examples of how the Qur'an uses the broadest of brushes upon all non-Muslims and their faith to make its incendiary and clearly prejudicial point:

- 7:176*"A person who follows his own lust is like a dog: if you attack him he pants with his tongue out, and if you leave him he pants with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of people who deny Our verses"
- 7:179*"They [unbelievers] are worse than lost cattle"
- 70:42*"So leave them to plunge in vain talk and play about, until they meet their Day which they are promised"
- 80:42*"they who are unbelievers, the wicked"
- 39:32*"Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning Allah, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers"?
- 40:10*"The disbelievers will be told, 'God's hatred towards you is much greater than your hatred of your own selves'".
- 7:177*"How evil an example are people who denied Our signs and used to wrong themselves"
- 19:86*"and drive the evildoers [followers of Satan] into Hell"
- 19:88-89*"They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son.*Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous"!
- 41:26-28 "The Unbelievers say: 'Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that you may gain the upper hand'.*But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.*That is the reward of Allah's enemies: the Fire. Therein is their immortal home, payment forasmuch as they denied Our revelations".

There are many hundreds of such verses. The denigration of non-Muslims is relentless. There's your broad brush.
Click to expand...

Stevecanuk:

Arab tribal culture of the 7th to 10th centuries CE was violent and brutal. The Qur'an reflects that in its language but most modern Muslims understand that what was acceptable in the 9th Century CE is not acceptable in the 21st Century CE. Just as the Torah/Old Testament is filled with violence and brutality reflective of the early Iron Age in Mesopotamia, and the New Testament is filled with horrors from the minds of the Classical Period, the Qur'an reflects the time and the culture which created the faith of Islam. Aside from a very small margin of fanatical zealots most Muslims have the good sense to take a more nuanced and far less fundamentalist approach to their faith. Yes they believe that the Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah transmitted through the person of the Prophet Muhammad, but they also understand that the Arabs are not still riding about on horses, swinging tulwars about and stomping on non-believers and dhimmi. Most Muslims today use the Qur'an and the teachings of their mullahs, imams, etc. as a guide to life, not as a literal instruction manual. That literalism is the province of the fundamentalists and fanatics at the far fringes of Islam, not the home of the vast majority of the faithful.

Your repeated reliance on quoting parts of the surahs out of context and in a 9th Century CE mindset is the same tunnel vision that guides the militant fundamentalists to plague their fellow Muslims and non-Muslims with violence justified in the name of Islam. Most Jews and Chistians have left behind the genocides of the Amelkites and the stoning of transgressors, consigning such stuff in the dustbin of history. Likewise the vast majority of Muslims have left the hatreds and atrocities of the 9th Century CE behind too. Only the fanatics of those three religions cling to the monstrosities of the past. It seems you yourself cannot see that.

Go to some of your local mosques and speak with the Muslims who work or pray there. They are not stuck in the mindset of the people who fought the Battle of Badr. They have grown and evolved into modern people who do not put much weight on the passages you repeatedly cite, as you attempt to demonise all Muslims the world over. Get your nose out of dusty books and hate-mongering websites and meet the people you are pillorying. Talk to them civilly and you will see the vast mass of the iceberg of Islam existing under the surface of your very antagonistic narrative are peaceful, normal people. Learn to shed your dependency on literalism and experience the beauty and the wisdom of Islamic civilisations around the globe which flowered and flourished long before you were born. Then ask yourself what became of the Golden Ages of Islam. It was the Franks, Mongels, Turks and other Westerners who came as the barbarians to topple the great civilisations of Islam, and those attacks continues today. You are one of these attacks' enthusiastic cheerleaders. Rah-rah-rah, read the bad surah! You are the barbarian behind the book.

So rage on in the hate-filled literalism that is a millennium out of date. You do you, and the rest of us will live our lives as sane people.

Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
OldFatGuy said:
You've seen nothing. I am not damaged as you so fantasize. My hate has been earned, whether you like it or not. It has been earned by the rotting corpses of islam's victims, whether you like it or not. Your false judgments mean nothing. Feel free to pimp for islam, your day is coming, whether you like it or not.
Click to expand...

Zzzzzzzzz.
 
Sweden said:
No it means Muslims continue to live in the UK and accept - well most of them - that it will not be possible to kill apostates until the time comes when they will be able to impose Shaia law.
Click to expand...

"until the time comes"

Do you think that the UK will ever adopt the Sharia law?
 
Snazzy said:
"until the time comes"

Do you think that the UK will ever adopt the Sharia law?
Click to expand...

When Muslims are in the majority in the UK. Immigration and demographics suggest this may happen around 2050.

(Shariah 'family courts', where women are at a great disadvantage, already exist in the UK btw).
 
Sweden said:
When Muslims are in the majority in the UK. Immigration and demographics suggest this may happen around 2050.

(Shariah 'family courts', where women are at a great disadvantage, already exist in the UK btw).
Click to expand...
So in 2020, the Muslim population of the UK is under 10% and you expect that to climb to 50%+ in one generation? Have you even done the math on that, or you just quoting some neo nazi site?

Sent from my Honor 8X
 
Evilroddy said:
Stevecanuk:

Arab tribal culture of the 7th to 10th centuries CE was violent and brutal. The Qur'an reflects that in its language but most modern Muslims understand that what was acceptable in the 9th Century CE is not acceptable in the 21st Century CE. Just as the Torah/Old Testament is filled with violence and brutality reflective of the early Iron Age in Mesopotamia, and the New Testament is filled with horrors from the minds of the Classical Period, the Qur'an reflects the time and the culture which created the faith of Islam. Aside from a very small margin of fanatical zealots most Muslims have the good sense to take a more nuanced and far less fundamentalist approach to their faith. Yes they believe that the Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah transmitted through the person of the Prophet Muhammad, but they also understand that the Arabs are not still riding about on horses, swinging tulwars about and stomping on non-believers and dhimmi. Most Muslims today use the Qur'an and the teachings of their mullahs, imams, etc. as a guide to life, not as a literal instruction manual. That literalism is the province of the fundamentalists and fanatics at the far fringes of Islam, not the home of the vast majority of the faithful.
Click to expand...

There are more literalists out there than you want to admit to. Look at the laws that exist in some Muslim countries and think about that again. Religious minorities in many Muslim majority countries live in constant fear of being found guilty of "insulting Islam" and losing their heads as a result. Not all Muslims, but enough to be a problem.

Your repeated reliance on quoting parts of the surahs out of context and in a 9th Century CE mindset is the same tunnel vision that guides the militant fundamentalists to plague their fellow Muslims and non-Muslims with violence justified in the name of Islam.
Click to expand...

Yes. We are in complete agreement. People who fret about finding the root causes of terrorism need look no further than the Qur'an. It guides today's zealots every bit as much as it guided the first Muslims. That's the main point I've been making. I'm glad you see it.

As to the "out of context" red herring, when you understand the historical context in which these verses were written, it draws a picture showing exactly when Mohamed first commanded killing "fee sabil allah". That happens in verses 2:190-191 at exactly the point when he wanted to start raiding Meccan caravans. It only gets worse from there.

{Most Jews and Chistians have left behind the genocides of the Amelkites and the stoning of transgressors, consigning such stuff in the dustbin of history. Likewise the vast majority of Muslims have left the hatreds and atrocities of the 9th Century CE behind too. Only the fanatics of those three religions cling to the monstrosities of the past. It seems you yourself cannot see that.
Click to expand...

No, that is EXACTLY what I see, and what I've been saying.

What you don't see is that the Qur'an is a sermon. It is only about 2% story telling. For Christians (mostly) to act horribly based on the bible, they have to extrapolate the details of a story into commands for today, and much of that is a pretty ridiculous stretch. For Muslims to act badly, they only have to read direct commands from God and decide to either obey or not.
 
Evilroddy said:
Stevecanuk:


Go to some of your local mosques and speak with the Muslims who work or pray there. They are not stuck in the mindset of the people who fought the Battle of Badr. They have grown and evolved into modern people who do not put much weight on the passages you repeatedly cite, as you attempt to demonise all Muslims the world over. Get your nose out of dusty books and hate-mongering websites and meet the people you are pillorying. Talk to them civilly and you will see the vast mass of the iceberg of Islam existing under the surface of your very antagonistic narrative are peaceful, normal people. Learn to shed your dependency on literalism and experience the beauty and the wisdom of Islamic civilisations around the globe which flowered and flourished long before you were born. Then ask yourself what became of the Golden Ages of Islam. It was the Franks, Mongels, Turks and other Westerners who came as the barbarians to topple the great civilisations of Islam, and those attacks continues today. You are one of these attacks' enthusiastic cheerleaders. Rah-rah-rah, read the bad surah! You are the barbarian behind the book.

So rage on in the hate-filled literalism that is a millennium out of date. You do you, and the rest of us will live our lives as sane people.

Evilroddy.
Click to expand...


Aaaaand finish with a flourish of self-righteous virtue signaling. Feel better? When you feel the need to throw in phrases like "dusty books" and "hate-mongering websites", it shows you have no real argument.

Yes, literalism. Literalism is what drives a mujaheed today as much as it did 1400 years ago. You even admitted that yourself.

As yes, those nasty Franks. How dare they stop the Muslim advance just west of Paris. Oh, the audacity.
Click to expand...
 
AProudLefty said:
Terrorism - intending to scare people into submission.
Mass Murder - just a freak event when one goes crazy.
Click to expand...

In most of these incidents, it's both.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom