• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:51]Views on Brexit as divided as before

Infinite Chaos

Infinite Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
23,930
Reaction score
16,476
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
very few voters on either side of the argument have changed their minds about whether the UK should leave the EU. The country appears to be just as divided as it was three years ago.
On average, during the last month, polls that ask people how they would vote in another referendum suggest that 88% of those who backed Remain would do so again. Among those who voted Leave, 86% have not changed their minds.
~
the balance of opinion might be tilted narrowly in favour of remaining a member of the EU. On average, this is by 53% to 47%. Link.
Click to expand...

Screenshot 2019-10-16 at 06.59.29.jpg

There is a tiny majority for remaining and this has been the case since March 2018 but you could argue all sorts from different options people were polled on however the majority of people have not changed their minds on continuing EU membership.

Long term though, in a hard Brexit Northern Ireland and Scotland would leave the UK - Wales seems to prefer vassal status to England unless hard Brexit wipes Wales out. Those lost Remain votes in Northern Ireland and Scotland will ensure England stays out of the EU while the other parts of the UK seek to rejoin.
 
Last edited:
Infinite Chaos said:
~............................Long term though, in a hard Brexit Northern Ireland and Scotland would leave the UK - Wales seems to prefer vassal status to England unless hard Brexit wipes Wales out. Those lost Remain votes in Northern Ireland and Scotland will ensure England stays out of the EU while the other parts of the UK seek to rejoin.
Click to expand...
Which, by reducing to pertinence, would finally bring the whole matter down to what it is really about. Namely that Leave is an exclusively English thing, not a British one.

Never was.
 
Chagos said:
Which, by reducing to pertinence, would finally bring the whole matter down to what it is really about. Namely that Leave is an exclusively English thing, not a British one.

Never was.
Click to expand...

It's self-inflicted injury.
The second most googled question in the UK the day after the Brexit vote, was "what is the European Union"? The uneducated masses voted for Leave, not even knowing what the whole thing was about. And there's been a persistent majority to Stay, but instead of pulling back and holding another referendum to scratch once and for all the stupid suicidal idea, the Brits are plowing ahead and committing the suicide anyway.

So, if it isn't a British idea but rather an English one (and I think polls do support your statement), why in the hell don't Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own referendums, break away from the UK, and remain in the EU? It's lame and cowardly. They bitch about it but do nothing to stop this train wreck. Yes, I'm aware that the Scots tried to break away and failed. That's precisely what I mean. They don't have the guts to go solo. But they should realize that they wouldn't be going solo. They'd most likely be readmitted into the EU right after separating from the UK.

Putin is the one salivating with satisfaction. There is nothing that plays into his hand more than a fractured European Union.
 
Last edited:
Problem is that Brexit has turned more towards "we got to do it even if it is wrong and kills us" mentality than a rational pragmatic view of the situation.

Time and time again I have met or heard Brexit people say "well we voted to leave" as thier main excuse to sticking with it and when you pressure them on issues they tend to not want Brexit... But you know the UK voted to leave so we have to...

Remind them that the UK also voted to join..... And thier brains explode.

Sent from my Honor 8X
 
GreatNews2night said:
It's self-inflicted injury.
The second most googled question in the UK the day after the Brexit vote, was "what is the European Union"? The uneducated masses voted for Leave, not even knowing what the whole thing was about. And there's been a persistent majority to Stay, but instead of pulling back and holding another referendum to scratch once and for all the stupid suicidal idea, the Brits are plowing ahead and committing the suicide anyway.

So, if it isn't a British idea but rather an English one (and I think polls do support your statement), why in the hell don't Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own referendums, break away from the UK, and remain in the EU? It's lame and cowardly. They bitch about it but do nothing to stop this train wreck. Yes, I'm aware that the Scots tried to break away and failed. That's precisely what I mean. They don't have the guts to go solo. But they should realize that they wouldn't be going solo. They'd most likely be readmitted into the EU right after separating from the UK.

Putin is the one salivating with satisfaction. There is nothing that plays into his hand more than a fractured European Union.
Click to expand...

I can see some good reasons to leave the EU and some good reasons to stay. But for the most part when debating I tend to take the remain side because the "arguments" from the leave side are so bad, so illogical, so lacking in reality it's unbelievable.

One thing I've come to learn over the years is that people create their own fantasy worlds to hide from the real world. And Brexiters mostly fit into that category.
 
PeteEU said:
Problem is that Brexit has turned more towards "we got to do it even if it is wrong and kills us" mentality than a rational pragmatic view of the situation.

Time and time again I have met or heard Brexit people say "well we voted to leave" as thier main excuse to sticking with it and when you pressure them on issues they tend to not want Brexit... But you know the UK voted to leave so we have to...

Remind them that the UK also voted to join..... And thier brains explode.

Sent from my Honor 8X
Click to expand...

Remind them that the UK has General Elections every few years, and that they don't say "well, we just voted and we can't therefore vote every again for government, because that would be undemocratic" and, well.... they insult usually.
 
GreatNews2night said:
It's self-inflicted injury.
The second most googled question in the UK the day after the Brexit vote, was "what is the European Union"? The uneducated masses voted for Leave, not even knowing what the whole thing was about. And there's been a persistent majority to Stay, but instead of pulling back and holding another referendum to scratch once and for all the stupid suicidal idea, the Brits are plowing ahead and committing the suicide anyway.

So, if it isn't a British idea but rather an English one (and I think polls do support your statement), why in the hell don't Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own referendums, break away from the UK, and remain in the EU? It's lame and cowardly. They bitch about it but do nothing to stop this train wreck. Yes, I'm aware that the Scots tried to break away and failed. That's precisely what I mean. They don't have the guts to go solo. But they should realize that they wouldn't be going solo. They'd most likely be readmitted into the EU right after separating from the UK.

Putin is the one salivating with satisfaction. There is nothing that plays into his hand more than a fractured European Union.
Click to expand...

Scotland wouldn't stay in the EU if they left the UK; they would have to re-apply for EU membership, and Spain might well veto due to the Catalan independence movement. And Scotland can't have another referendum without the UK government's approval.
 
GreatNews2night said:
~........................why in the hell don't Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own referendums, break away from the UK, and remain in the EU? It's lame and cowardly. They bitch about it but do nothing to stop this train wreck. Yes, I'm aware that the Scots tried to break away and failed. That's precisely what I mean. They don't have the guts to go solo. But they should realize that they wouldn't be going solo. They'd most likely be readmitted into the EU right after separating from the UK................~
Click to expand...
Aristaeus already explained it well in post #7.

As to the failed Scottish independence referendum of 2014, one needs to remember that the "NO" side made all sorts of promises over Scotland remaining (as part of the UK) in the EU, while separating would have them standing in line for membership appliance. Possibly endangered by a likely Spanish (and French) veto.

Well, those promises are of course now broken.
 
Aristaeus said:
Scotland wouldn't stay in the EU if they left the UK; they would have to re-apply for EU membership, and Spain might well veto due to the Catalan independence movement. And Scotland can't have another referendum without the UK government's approval.
Click to expand...
Technically correct (the bolded) but what is Westminster going to do if the Scots push ahead anyway? Send in the army?

That might work in Spain wrt Catalunya (due that country's completely different organizational and judicial set-up) but I'll believe a Culloden re-run when I see it.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
Remind them that the UK has General Elections every few years, and that they don't say "well, we just voted and we can't therefore vote every again for government, because that would be undemocratic" and, well.... they insult usually.
Click to expand...
The Swiss need to take the voting right back from women. They held three referendum until that right finally passed, so clearly the will of the people was ignored the first two times.

Very undemocratic, I tellsya.
 
PeteEU said:
Problem is that Brexit has turned more towards "we got to do it even if it is wrong and kills us" mentality than a rational pragmatic view of the situation.

Time and time again I have met or heard Brexit people say "well we voted to leave" as thier main excuse to sticking with it and when you pressure them on issues they tend to not want Brexit... But you know the UK voted to leave so we have to...

Remind them that the UK also voted to join..... And thier brains explode.

Sent from my Honor 8X
Click to expand...
Yeah, one can't argue with stupidity, least of all with the type that stems from insanity.
 
It doesn't matter how divided views are on Brexit. Deal or no deal, that is all that remains.
 
Chagos said:
Technically correct (the bolded) but what is Westminster going to do if the Scots push ahead anyway? Send in the army?

That might work in Spain wrt Catalunya (due that country's completely different organizational and judicial set-up) but I'll believe a Culloden re-run when I see it.
Click to expand...

The Scots could push ahead anyway if they really wanted to, just as Catalonia did.

Getting the rest of the world to recognise their new found independence is a different matter altogether, and they would soon realise that the hard way, just as Catalonia did.
 
Snazzy said:
The Scots could push ahead anyway if they really wanted to, just as Catalonia did.

Getting the rest of the world to recognise their new found independence is a different matter altogether, and they would soon realise that the hard way, just as Catalonia did.
Click to expand...
My point was that I don't see Westminster preventing it by force. And IF it doesn't and IF Scotland secedes, recognition won't be as lengthy as admission to the EU. Not so much because the EU might reject application (although Spain and France might prove awkward) but because the whole process takes so much time.
 
Drawdown said:
It doesn't matter how divided views are on Brexit. Deal or no deal, that is all that remains.
Click to expand...
What would we do without your profound pearls of wisdom? And why does parliament even bother sitting any more, when they could simply ask you?

:roll:
 
Chagos said:
~ the EU might reject application (although Spain and France might prove awkward) ~
Click to expand...

I think France and Spain MIGHT prove difficult but they may also have sympathy for the Scots and Irish once freed from the English. Northern Ireland would join as part of a reunified Eire and Scotland... I now what the Spanish say WRT to Catalonia but really, the reason for Scottish rejoining is quite different.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I think France and Spain MIGHT prove difficult but they may also have sympathy for the Scots and Irish once freed from the English. Northern Ireland would join as part of a reunified Eire and Scotland... I now what the Spanish say WRT to Catalonia but really, the reason for Scottish rejoining is quite different.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree. Not comparable and not even to the minds of Spain or France.
 
Manc Skipper said:
No deal is off the table, under the Benn act. Revoke is always with us.
Click to expand...

The Benn Act doesn't control what happens. Article 50 does and Parliament has no say in how it gets applied.
 
Drawdown said:
The Benn Act doesn't control what happens. Article 50 does and Parliament has no say in how it gets applied.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing what you know nothing about.

And thanks for sharing how parliament had no say in how Article 50 was applied when the last extension was made.
 
Aristaeus said:
Scotland wouldn't stay in the EU if they left the UK; they would have to re-apply for EU membership, and Spain might well veto due to the Catalan independence movement. And Scotland can't have another referendum without the UK government's approval.
Click to expand...

No, it's not like this. At one point Scotland wanted to separate and THAT would spook Spain because they don't want to encourage Catalonia. But the situation now would be different: faced with an exiting UK, Scotland would be leaving the UK specifically IN ORDER TO RE-ENTER the European Union which would not exactly be Catalonia's situation.

Catalonia would be leaving a Spain that is a member of the EU... and the EU would punish them by not accepting them back into the EU.

But Scotland would now be leaving a UK that would NOT be a member of the EU... in order to yes, reapply, and then, yes, rejoin the EU.

Scotland would be saying, see, we don't like what England and Wales are doing... they are leaving the EU. We want to remain in the EU so we'll leave them and come back to the EU.

Catalonia would be leaving Spain AND the EU. No re-admission for them.

Now, regarding "can't have a referendum without the UK government's approval", it's all relative. With enough pressure, with Scotland actually becoming a huge pain in the ass, that authorization might very well be granted. Not immediately, not without resistance, but eventually.

Are the Scots willing to do all that?

I think not, and that's why I said it's cowardly. If they want to stay in the EU (and they do), then they should bloody fight for it, and not just defer to the English and have no say in the matter.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I think France and Spain MIGHT prove difficult but they may also have sympathy for the Scots and Irish once freed from the English. Northern Ireland would join as part of a reunified Eire and Scotland... I now what the Spanish say WRT to Catalonia but really, the reason for Scottish rejoining is quite different.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's what I just said.

Besides, Scotland and Northern Ireland breaking up with England and Wales and rejoining the EU would, for the EU, appear as further punishment and revenge for England's folly.

What the EU wants member states to know is that leaving the Union is pretty stupid.

So, if they can say, "see, the Brits left... and ended up breaking apart and part of them came back... and the English, the silly ones who drove the full Brexit folly, ended up diminished and alone."

The EU would love that. This is why they'd welcome Scotland and Northern Ireland back into the flock.
 
Last edited:
Drawdown said:
The Benn Act doesn't control what happens. Article 50 does and Parliament has no say in how it gets applied.
Click to expand...

Brexiters shouting "We want our sovereignty back"

Brexiters saying "Parliament doesn't have have UK sovereignty"

People who actually know about UK politics wondering how people who know NOTHING about UK politics get to vote.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom