Poland plans to tear down hundreds of memorials of Soviet - "russian " occupants

this process is no one can stop , why "russia" is so against it, cheep PR? as we all know "russia" fought on Hitler side in WW2

"Since 1989, Poles have removed hundreds of memorials erected after World War II .... But around 200 memorials still remain. Now, the government wants them gone :2wave: ."

Poland plans to tear down hundreds of Soviet memorials | Europe| News and current affairs from around the continent | DW | 13.04.2016

Litwin said:

this process is no one can stop , why "russia" is so against it, cheep PR? as we all know "russia" fought on Hitler side in WW2

"Since 1989, Poles have removed hundreds of memorials erected after World War II .... But around 200 memorials still remain. Now, the government wants them gone :2wave: ."

Poland plans to tear down hundreds of Soviet memorials | Europe| News and current affairs from around the continent | DW | 13.04.2016

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No, Russia did not “fight on Hitler’s side in World War Two”. That is quite literally a blatant lie.

Without the Red Army there wouldn’t have been any Poles left either. The historical record is rather explict

Tigerace117 said:

No, Russia did not “fight on Hitler’s side in World War Two”. That is quite literally a blatant lie.

Without the Red Army there wouldn’t have been any Poles left either. The historical record is rather explict

Click to expand...

The initial non aggression pact and subsequent partition of Poland may be what he’s referring to.

And history is complex, you may be correct as things turned out but I’ve recently seen interesting evidence that the Soviet Union may have tried to sue for peace during the war and it appears those territorial concessions may have included all of Poland and then some.

On top of that the Soviet’s betrayal of the people of Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising isn’t exactly a bright spot either and of course the subsequent installation of a communist puppet state and decades of oppression, backed up by the Red Army, wasn’t so good either.

So I can understand the sentiment.

Russia did not “fight on Hitler’s side in World War Two”.

Click to expand...

your stalinist , putlerist empty words, against words of Historian N1 in world today ...
"To complete the rehabilitation, Mr. Putin saw to it that Ilyin’s corpse was repatriated from Switzerland, and that his archive was returned from Michigan. The Russian president has been seen laying flowers on Ilyin’s Moscow grave. And Mr. Putin is not the only disciple of Ilyin among the Kremlin elite.

Vladislav Y. Surkov, Moscow’s arch-propagandist, also sees Ilyin as an authority. Prime Minister Dmitri A. Medvedev, who served as president between 2008 and 2012, recommends Ilyin to Russian students. Ilyin figures in the speeches of the foreign minister, the head of the constitutional court and the patriarch of the Orthodox Church.
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What are the ideas that have inspired such esteem?

Ilyin believed that individuality was evil. For him, the “variety of human beings” demonstrated the failure of God to complete the labor of creation and was therefore essentially satanic. By extension, the middle classes, political parties and civil society were also evil, because they encouraged the development of personalities beyond the single identity of the national community.

According to Ilyin, the purpose of politics is to overcome individuality, and establish a “living totality” of the nation. Writing in the 1920s and ’30s after his expulsion from the Soviet Union, when he became a leading emigré ideologue of the anti-Communist White Russians, Ilyin looked on Mussolini and Hitler as exemplary leaders who were saving Europe by dissolving democracy. His 1927 article “On Russian Fascism” was addressed to “My White brothers, the fascists.” Later, in the 1940s and ’50s, he provided the outlines for a constitution of a fascist Holy Russia governed by a “national dictator” who would be “inspired by the spirit of totality.”

This leader would be responsible for all functions of government in a completely centralized state. Elections would be held, with open voting and signed ballots, purely as a ritual of support of the leader. The reckoning of votes was irrelevant: “We must reject blind faith in the number of votes and its political significance.”

In the light of Ilyin’s rehabilitation as Russia’s leading ideologue, Moscow’s manipulations of elections should be seen not so much as a failure to implement democracy but as a subversion of the very concept of democracy. Neither the parliamentary elections of December 2011 nor the presidential elections of March 2012 produced a majority for Mr. Putin’s party or for Mr. Putin personally. Votes were therefore added to produce a decisive result."

Opinion | How a Russian Fascist Is Meddling in America’s Election - The New York Times

Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism | by Timothy Snyder | NYR Daily | The New York Review of Books

Jetboogieman said:

The initial non aggression pact and subsequent partition of Poland may be what he’s referring to.

And history is complex, you may be correct as things turned out but I’ve recently seen interesting evidence that the Soviet Union may have tried to sue for peace during the war and it appears those territorial concessions may have included all of Poland and then some.

On top of that the Soviet’s betrayal of the people of Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising isn’t exactly a bright spot either and of course the subsequent installation of a communist puppet state and decades of oppression, backed up by the Red Army, wasn’t so good either.

So I can understand the sentiment.

Click to expand...

Which is rather different than claiming that Russia “fought on Hitler’s side”. The historical record is explict that the Nazis saw the Poles as subhuman. Millions of Polish Jews died, as did millions more non Jewish Poles.

There’s a big difference between objecting to what the Soviets did after the war, which was obviously bad, and trying to downplay or ignore the contributions they made to crushing Hitler.....or actively whitewashing the crimes of Nazi collaborators and “investigating” partisans who fought against them, which is what is happening in Lithuania.

Litwin said:

your stalinist , putlerist empty words, against words of Historian N1 in world today ...
"To complete the rehabilitation, Mr. Putin saw to it that Ilyin’s corpse was repatriated from Switzerland, and that his archive was returned from Michigan. The Russian president has been seen laying flowers on Ilyin’s Moscow grave. And Mr. Putin is not the only disciple of Ilyin among the Kremlin elite.

Vladislav Y. Surkov, Moscow’s arch-propagandist, also sees Ilyin as an authority. Prime Minister Dmitri A. Medvedev, who served as president between 2008 and 2012, recommends Ilyin to Russian students. Ilyin figures in the speeches of the foreign minister, the head of the constitutional court and the patriarch of the Orthodox Church.
Sign Up for Debatable

Agree to disagree, or disagree better? We'll help you understand the sharpest arguments on the most pressing issues of the week, from new and familiar voices.

What are the ideas that have inspired such esteem?

Ilyin believed that individuality was evil. For him, the “variety of human beings” demonstrated the failure of God to complete the labor of creation and was therefore essentially satanic. By extension, the middle classes, political parties and civil society were also evil, because they encouraged the development of personalities beyond the single identity of the national community.

According to Ilyin, the purpose of politics is to overcome individuality, and establish a “living totality” of the nation. Writing in the 1920s and ’30s after his expulsion from the Soviet Union, when he became a leading emigré ideologue of the anti-Communist White Russians, Ilyin looked on Mussolini and Hitler as exemplary leaders who were saving Europe by dissolving democracy. His 1927 article “On Russian Fascism” was addressed to “My White brothers, the fascists.” Later, in the 1940s and ’50s, he provided the outlines for a constitution of a fascist Holy Russia governed by a “national dictator” who would be “inspired by the spirit of totality.”

This leader would be responsible for all functions of government in a completely centralized state. Elections would be held, with open voting and signed ballots, purely as a ritual of support of the leader. The reckoning of votes was irrelevant: “We must reject blind faith in the number of votes and its political significance.”

In the light of Ilyin’s rehabilitation as Russia’s leading ideologue, Moscow’s manipulations of elections should be seen not so much as a failure to implement democracy but as a subversion of the very concept of democracy. Neither the parliamentary elections of December 2011 nor the presidential elections of March 2012 produced a majority for Mr. Putin’s party or for Mr. Putin personally. Votes were therefore added to produce a decisive result."

Opinion | How a Russian Fascist Is Meddling in America’s Election - The New York Times

Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism | by Timothy Snyder | NYR Daily | The New York Review of Books

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Which is totally irrelevant to the fact that Russia fought against the Germans. Claiming that they fought with Germany—or that World War Two was started by the Soviets in 1921—is simply unhinged lies.

Unless Vladimir Putin is a time traveler, what he does today is totally irrelevant to what happened in the 1940s.

"Red Army there wouldn’t have been any Poles"

a commie - stalinist propaganda , the facts :

"Poland's formal sovereignty was re-established by the Soviet-formed provisional government, later renamed as the Provisional Government of the Republic of Poland.[58] The country remained under de facto military occupation for many years to come, controlled by the Soviet Northern Group of Forces, which were stationed in Poland until 1956. Some 25,000 Polish underground fighters, including 300 top Home Army officers, were captured by NKVD units and SMERSH operational groups in the fall of 1944. They suffered mass deportations to the gulags.[59]

Between 1944 and 1946, thousands of Polish independence fighters actively opposed the new communist regime, attacking country offices of NKVD, SMERSH and the Polish communist secret service (UB).[60] The events of the late 1940s amounted to a full-scale civil war according to some historians, especially in the eastern and central parts of the country (see: the Cursed soldiers). According to depositions by Józef Światło and other communist sources, the number of members of the Polish underground, rounded up by order of Lavrentiy Beria of the NKVD and deported to Siberia and various gulags in the Soviet Union, reached 50,000 in 1945 alone.[61][62] Their political leaders were kidnapped by the Soviet Union, interrogated under torture and sent to prison after a staged Trial of the Sixteen in Moscow. None survived.[62][63] About 600 people died as the result of the Augustów roundup.

The documents of the era show that the problem of sexual violence against Polish women by Soviet servicemen was serious both during and after the advance of Soviet forces across Poland.[64] Joanna Ostrowska and Marcin Zaremba of the Polish Academy of Sciences estimate that rapes of Polish women reached a mass scale following the Winter Offensive of 1945.[4] Whether the number of victims could have reached or even exceeded 100,000 is only a matter of guessing,[4] considering the traditional taboos among the women incapable of finding "a voice that would have enabled them to talk openly" about their wartime experiences "while preserving their dignity."[65]

To this day the events of those and the following years constitute stumbling blocks in Polish-Russian foreign relations. Polish requests for the return of looted property or for an apology for Soviet-era crimes are either ignored or rejected. The Soviet and Russian state remind the nation of their version of history: "we freed you from Nazism: be grateful."[66] "

Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939–1946) - Wikipedia

Cursed soldiers - Wikipedia

Tigerace117 said:

Which is rather different than claiming that Russia “fought on Hitler’s side”. The historical record is explict that the Nazis saw the Poles as subhuman. Millions of Polish Jews died, as did millions more non Jewish Poles.

There’s a big difference between objecting to what the Soviets did after the war, which was obviously bad, and trying to downplay or ignore the contributions they made to crushing Hitler.....or actively whitewashing the crimes of Nazi collaborators and “investigating” partisans who fought against them, which is what is happening in Lithuania.

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The Soviets didn’t liberate Poland out of the goodness of their heart and while in retrospect despite the subsequent oppression, yes they did save the Poles from their planned destruction... They certainly didn’t really care about them though and I don’t see an attempt by the OP to downplay Nazi crimes, he’s just super duper anti-Russia.

The non-aggression pact and partition, the betrayal of the Warsaw uprising and many other things show that the Polish survival as a people was not really all that concerning to the Soviet Union.

Tigerace117 said:

No, Russia did not “fight on Hitler’s side in World War Two”. That is quite literally a blatant lie.

Without the Red Army there wouldn’t have been any Poles left either. The historical record is rather explict

Click to expand...

Jetboogieman said:

The initial non aggression pact and subsequent partition of Poland may be what he’s referring to.

And history is complex, you may be correct as things turned out but I’ve recently seen interesting evidence that the Soviet Union may have tried to sue for peace during the war and it appears those territorial concessions may have included all of Poland and then some.

On top of that the Soviet’s betrayal of the people of Warsaw during the Warsaw uprising isn’t exactly a bright spot either and of course the subsequent installation of a communist puppet state and decades of oppression, backed up by the Red Army, wasn’t so good either.

So I can understand the sentiment.

Click to expand...

As usual, the historical account is significantly more complicated than Litwin's bizarre "THE GODDAMN RUSSIANS ARE GODDAMN MONGOLIANS" shtick implies it to be. Here, everyone, have a taste of the finest Mongolian folk metal in circulation. It's pretty great, and glorifies Genghis Khan about as hard as Litwin probably beats himself off to Carolus Rex and Gustavus Adolphus when he isn't busy concocting half-baked theses for a hobby. Remember your subtitles, they're... well, they help at least. Some stuff isn't actually translated, and instead just changes alphabets from Cyrillic to Latin.

Russia was one of two invaders of Poland, and then the 2 invaders fought over control of Poland. Russia won. Russia did NOT liberal Poland. How does that make Russians heroic to Poles? It replaced Germany as the oppressive occupying invader country.

Jetboogieman said:

The Soviets didn’t liberate Poland out of the goodness of their heart and while in retrospect despite the subsequent oppression, yes they did save the Poles from their planned destruction... They certainly didn’t really care about them though and I don’t see an attempt by the OP to downplay Nazi crimes, he’s just super duper anti-Russia.

The non-aggression pact and partition, the betrayal of the Warsaw uprising and many other things show that the Polish survival as a people was not really all that concerning to the Soviet Union.

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Why they did it is irrelevant. The fact is that at the end of the day, they did, in fact, liberate Poland from a regime which was actively slaughtering them. And speaking of broken promises, the western allies sitting on their asses and doing jack and **** while the German offensive slammed into Poland rather easily comes to mind.

Yes, Stalin didn’t particularly care about the Poles. Nobody said he did. He was a psychopath. But pretending that Poland wasn’t liberated from the Nazis is foolish.

Jesse Booth said:

As usual, the historical account is significantly more complicated than Litwin's bizarre "THE GODDAMN RUSSIANS ARE GODDAMN MONGOLIANS" shtick implies it to be. Here, everyone, have a taste of the finest Mongolian folk metal in circulation. It's pretty great, and glorifies Genghis Khan about as hard as Litwin probably beats himself off to Carolus Rex and Gustavus Adolphus when he isn't busy concocting half-baked theses for a hobby. Remember your subtitles, they're... well, they help at least. Some stuff isn't actually translated, and instead just changes alphabets from Cyrillic to Latin.

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Still not entirely sure why he thinks “mongol” is an insult, but there’s a degree of blatant bigotry there which is rather obvious.

But then again, considering that Lithuania’s been celebrating its Nazi collaborators pretty much since the minute it regained independence while looking for any excuse to “investigate” those who fought against them....

Lithuania and Nazis: The country wants to forget its collaborationist past by accusing Jewish partisans of war crimes.

Tigerace117 said:

Still not entirely sure why he thinks “mongol” is an insult, but there’s a degree of blatant bigotry there which is rather obvious.

But then again, considering that Lithuania’s been celebrating its Nazi collaborators pretty much since the minute it regained independence while looking for any excuse to “investigate” those who fought against them....

Lithuania and Nazis: The country wants to forget its collaborationist past by accusing Jewish partisans of war crimes.

Click to expand...

I don't believe anyone sane would claim the Soviets had a friendly attitude towards civilians during WW2, but that's no excuse for literally idolizing the Nazis who were actually attempting to ethnically cleanse the region at the time.

Russia “fought on Hitler’s side”.

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yes, modern Putin- Ilyin - Vlasov´s russia (official ideology , flag, religions , economy , form of governance etc) fought on Hitler side ,





or you try to say that putlerstan is the smaller version of commie USSR?

Jesse Booth said:

I don't believe anyone sane would claim the Soviets had a friendly attitude towards civilians during WW2, but that's no excuse for literally idolizing the Nazis who were actually attempting to ethnically cleanse the region at the time.

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actually , Hitler was huge admirer of koba and his methods , he imitated literally every koba´s step

Stalin’s Ethnic Deportations—and the Gerrymandered Ethnic Map - Languages Of The World

Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush - Wikipedia

" those who fought against them" well stalinist , you can write to NATO & Pentagon , why they produce such documentations today

"After the Second World War, soldiers from across the Baltics who had fought on both sides of the war disappeared into the forests to wage Europe's bloodiest guerrilla war against the occupying Soviet forces". look like you got the short end here again :lol:

Jesse Booth said:

I don't believe anyone sane would claim the Soviets had a friendly attitude towards civilians during WW2, but that's no excuse for literally idolizing the Nazis who were actually attempting to ethnically cleanse the region at the time.

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One need not idolize Nazis to detest Soviet crimes. Both regimes were repugnant. Neither deserves any hero's mantle.

Rogue Valley said:

One need not idolize Nazis to detest Soviet crimes. Both regimes were repugnant. Neither deserves any hero's mantle.

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Hitler is stone dead for everyone, everywhere in the world , meanwhile koba is THE N1 IMPERIAL LEADER IN MUSCOVY TODAY

"Seventy percent of Russian respondents told the Levada Center in 2019 that Stalin played a positive role for Russia. Stalin’s previous record approval rating stood at 54 percent in 2016.

A record low of 19 percent viewed Stalin’s role negatively, down from 32 percent in 2016.

“Stalin begins to be perceived as a symbol of justice and an alternative to the current government, deemed unfair, cruel and not caring about people,” Academy of Sciences sociologist Leonty Byzov was quoted as saying by the RBC news website.

“It’s purely a mythological image of Stalin, very far from the real historical figure,” Byzov added." Stalin’s Approval Rating Among Russians Hits Record High – Poll - The Moscow Times


Stalin's Appeal Surging Among Russians, Opinion Poll Suggests

Litwin said:

" those who fought against them" well stalinist , you can write to NATO & Pentagon , why they produce such documentations today

"After the Second World War, soldiers from across the Baltics who had fought on both sides of the war disappeared into the forests to wage Europe's bloodiest guerrilla war against the occupying Soviet forces". look like you got the short end here again :lol:

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What “Stalinist” are you referring to?

Are you trying to claim all Baltic nationalist partisans were Nazi collaborators? Because, as usual with you, that is blatantly false..,,,and a pretty clear “own goal” to boot.

Then again, from reading the article it does seem clear that a lot of the “Forest Brothers”, especially in Latvia, were part of the Waffen SS, so yes, I agree that NATO shouldn’t be listening to those pushing that agenda.

Jesse Booth said:

I don't believe anyone sane would claim the Soviets had a friendly attitude towards civilians during WW2, but that's no excuse for literally idolizing the Nazis who were actually attempting to ethnically cleanse the region at the time.

Click to expand...

The way they’ve decided to target partisans while celebrating collaborators is utterly despicable. There is no reason to tolerate it; additionally, the article goes into rather explict detail about how Lithuanians themselves—including a number of the folks being celebrated by the post independence government—-were the ones happily pulling the trigger for the Nazis.

Litwin said:

actually , Hitler was huge admirer of koba and his methods , he imitated literally every koba´s step

Stalin’s Ethnic Deportations—and the Gerrymandered Ethnic Map - Languages Of The World

Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

Hitler and Stalin hated each other like rat poison, and there was certainly no “imitation” involved. Hitler slaughtered those he thought would rebel or were “inconvenient”.

Tigerace117 said:

Hitler and Stalin hated each other like rat poison, and there was certainly no “imitation” involved. Hitler slaughtered those he thought would rebel or were “inconvenient”.

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I would imagine this guy has an argument for how the French Revolution is somehow retroactively the fault of Russian communist purges, too. Everything even remotely bad is Russian, in Litwin's nightmare alternate reality.

Jesse Booth said:

I would imagine this guy has an argument for how the French Revolution is somehow retroactively the fault of Russian communist purges, too. Everything even remotely bad is Russian, in Litwin's nightmare alternate reality.

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Clearly the French Revolution occurred because Mongolians showed up in Paris and made everyone overthrow the king. Then the Mongolians began a super secret plot to destroy France by making them fight all their neighbors and then invade Greater Mongolia/Russia, all to show off how powerful Mongolia is. Those sneaky Asians :roll::mrgreen:

Tigerace117 said:

Clearly the French Revolution occurred because Mongolians showed up in Paris and made everyone overthrow the king. Then the Mongolians began a super secret plot to destroy France by making them fight all their neighbors and then invade Greater Mongolia/Russia, all to show off how powerful Mongolia is. Those sneaky Asians :roll::mrgreen:

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They can't keep getting away with it!

Jesse Booth said:

They can't keep getting away with it!

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https://geology.com/world/mongolia-map.gif
The horror....the horror...