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Thread: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

  1. #121
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    EU citizens can only vote in local elections not national elections.

    As for the referendum, EU nationals living legally in the UK should have been able to vote as it effected them as well, just as ALL UK citizens living outside the UK should have been able to vote. The Tory government screwed both over.

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    That's just stupid. Why would foreign nationals have a say in the future of a nation, particularly if that nation is deciding to regain their sovereignty? It would be like letting foreign nationals living in the U.S. to vote on U.S. immigration policy.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    That's just stupid. Why would foreign nationals have a say in the future of a nation, particularly if that nation is deciding to regain their sovereignty? It would be like letting foreign nationals living in the U.S. to vote on U.S. immigration policy.
    That is not the same. It would be more like only people born in New York being able to vote in succeeding from the US. Anyone born outside New York could not vote..

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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    That is not the same. It would be more like only people born in New York being able to vote in succeeding from the US. Anyone born outside New York could not vote..

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    That's for giving a 1st-hand example of the point I've been making this entire time. The pro-EU people are against the concept of European countries existing and having it's own nation, well beyond the economic zone that was originally intended. You want sovereign nations to be reduced to province/state status.
    “There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies.” ― Glen Cook, Chronicles of the Black Company

  4. #124
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    That's for giving a 1st-hand example of the point I've been making this entire time. The pro-EU people are against the concept of European countries existing and having it's own nation, well beyond the economic zone that was originally intended. You want sovereign nations to be reduced to province/state status.
    Nonsense. Anyone out there calling for the separate nations to play as one EU team in the football world cup? For there not to be a European Championship? Nope.

  5. #125
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    That's for giving a 1st-hand example of the point I've been making this entire time. The pro-EU people are against the concept of European countries existing and having it's own nation, well beyond the economic zone that was originally intended. You want sovereign nations to be reduced to province/state status.
    Hardly. It is basically the opposite. The EU/EEC has always been about cooperation on issues that are best solved as a group and of course the common market to promote competition and benefit the consumer. It also has a policy of as much power as possible to local government and not national governments. A good example is regional aid, where local government can apply for aid, and dont have to get the permission of national governments to do so. The Scottish and Welsh have benefited massively from this, since the English based parliament has for centuries not invested in the areas as much as they should have.

    Now why do I say that EU citizens living and working legally in the UK should have had a say? Because they pay a ton of taxes to the UK and the outcome would affect their lives far far more than ordinary Brits. But sadly it is up to the country in question on how they treat people. My own country, for example do not allow its own citizens living abroad to vote in national elections...
    PeteEU

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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Snazzy View Post
    I wonder if the door swings both ways for those voting rights - especially in the ROI.

    Logic says yes,
    and logic is confirmed. British citizens holding resident status in the Republic may vote at Dáil, European and local elections.
    but you never know with politics.
    Especially when looking to the future. One may indeed wonder whether the multi-lateral agreement on this issue will prevail after Brexit, especially if it happens as a crash-out.

    But that'll be a ROI-UK thing, not a UK-EU one.
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Sven Karma View Post
    Nonsense.
    As was to be expected in view of nothing else ever coming from that direction on this issue.
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  8. #128
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    You are, with all due respect, misreading the ruling altogether.

    The Court ruled upon the protection of parliament's sovereignty and in its ruling effected just that. That issue is not primarily a political matter but one of law. With the Court upholding precisely that.

    That the judges considered the unity of the UK to be at stake is pure speculation, as much as that, during the days of their deliberations, they were eating bad breakfasts would be.
    Chagos:

    With respect I disagree with your take on this. I have now read the published court ruling, and while not a lawyer myself, it is clear to me that this decision was not about the sovereignty of parliament at all, since Mr. Johnson was held responsible rather than the sovereign for the prorogation. Mr. Johnson and his clique are part of the parliament and it was he who recommended that parliament be prorogued over and above the three-week long hiatus already scheduled for party conferences. Parliamentary sovereignty does not apply here as this is an intra-parliamentary dispute, so in my eyes the court's decision was a political one and not one based on British/UK constitutional law. Parliamentarians do not have sovreignity over other parliamentarians and cabinet has more control of the parliament than any other bloc of non-governmental parliamentarians. This was a political fix for a deadlocked parliament which does not want to lose its power while being simultaneously loathe/afraid to exercise that power and responsibility. When court's make political decisions the results are usually not good.

    https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/do...2-judgment.pdf

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    Last edited by Evilroddy; 09-29-19 at 09:40 AM.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Brexit: Scottish judges rule Parliament suspension is unlawful

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    Chagos:

    With respect I disagree with your take on this. I have now read the published court ruling, and while not a lawyer myself, it is clear to me that this decision was not about the sovereignty of parliament at all, since Mr. Johnson was held responsible rather than the sovereign for the prorogation. Mr. Johnson and his clique are part of the parliament and it was he who recommended that parliament be prorogued over and above the three-week long hiatus already scheduled for party conferences. Parliamentary sovereignty does not apply here as this is an intra-parliamentary dispute, so in my eyes the court's decision was a political one and not one based on British/UK constitutional law. Parliamentarians do not have sovreignity over other parliamentarians and cabinet has more control of the parliament than any other bloc of non-governmental parliamentarians. This was a political fix for a deadlocked parliament which does not want to lose its power while being simultaneously loathe/afraid to exercise that power and responsibility. When court's make political decisions the results are usually not good.

    https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/do...2-judgment.pdf

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    Interpret it as you wish, the ultimate effect remains that a PM cannot prorogue parliament (better said advice the HofS to so do) just as he pleases (IOW not without sound and thus lawful reason).

    I never even intimated that parliamentarians have sovereignty over other parliamentarians, instead I pointed out that parliament's sovereignty as a whole found protection. If you want to insert "privilege" for "sovereignty", no prob. with me.

    66.That case clearly establishes: (1) that it is for the court and not for Parliament to determine the scope of Parliamentary privilege, whether under article 9 of the Bill of Rights or matters within the “exclusive cognisance of Parliament”; (2) that the principal matter to which article 9 is directed is “freedom of speech and debate in the Houses of Parliament and in parliamentary committees. This is where the core or essential business of Parliament takes place” (para 47)....................~
    As to this sentence (especially what I bolded)
    This was a political fix for a deadlocked parliament which does not want to lose its power while being simultaneously loathe/afraid to exercise that power and responsibility.
    , you clearly should read the ruling again.

    Seeing how the court did not rule on any other ongoing political processes in parliament, stuck or not, but clearly stated excusing itself from making any such judgments.

    Quite apart from it remaining a mystery of how (alone) the passing of the Benn Act can be seen as an expression of (intended) inactivity that could be read as being loath to exercise anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by coldjoint View Post
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