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Thread: Where next for British Conservatives?

  1. #21
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    Yet another Conservative has gone over toe the Lib Dems. Sam Gyimah - he was a logical fit for the Lib-Dems, always seen him as very "left" within the Conservative party.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    With nothing to argue over in what you post, let me say, since your thread poses a question overall, that in my book the question falls short of an issue holding far more importance for the future.

    WHAT NEXT FOR BRITAIN???

    I do not mean wrt solely to Brexit or with regard to the decline of the Tories as we both once knew them, no the question pertains to whether Brits wish to maintain an organizational state structure (thinking electoral system, thinking constitutional system, thinking system both of political and thus democratic representation)that is so blatantly faulty as we come to see in this catastrophe.
    ...
    To wit (finally), a modern democracy (better said a state deeming itself to be governed on democratic principles) cannot, in the long run, function without a constitution. And despite indignant protests that I hear already of Britain having one, it does NOT. Because where things worked so far to everybody's satisfaction, there was always bound to be a time when they would not, and today is one of those times.
    ...
    And let anyone champing on the bit to call me a socialist, wrap his unqualified opinion into a wad and shove it where the sun don't shine (I despise Corbyn heartily for a variety of reasons and his Marxist lean is one of them).
    Edited for word count.

    Chagos:

    An excellent post. Thank you!

    There are remedies in a system based on an unwritten constitution, but I fear modern populations are too meek and docile to avail themselves of them effectively anymore; and modern states are too powerful and too intrusive (in a surveillance sense) to let the remedies get started and build political momentum up. The "out of doors" has been historically effective in getting reform from below when governments were too entrenched to change from above. The much more extreme "right to rebellion" is also an established remedy but of course is often fatal for those who do not win the political struggle for reform and can cause immense political and material damage.

    The problem, as I see it, is that you do not trust that the parliamentary system has evolved to protect citizens and the state effectively by fluid political means rather than by codified legal rules or formalised checks and balances set out in a written constitution. So you seem to be calling for a republican United Kingdom rather than a parliamentary United Kingdom. Is this so?

    The problem from my point of view is that republics lack long-term flexibility and, if written constitutions are not very well composed and crafted, can entrench power even more firmly than a fluid parliamentary system, making reform much harder and tyranny/oligarchy more likely. The "cousins" from across the pond have watched more of their citizens die to domestic gun violence than citizens have died in foreign wars and that is because of the entrenchment of the US gun culture in a poorly written (in my opinion) constitutional amendment. So protecting and checking a political system is just as frought with danger by republican means as a parliamentary system protected by fluid political activism and checks. Both are messy and bring to mind the late Mr. Churchill's famous appraisal of democracy.

    The key is for the people of the U.K. to stop sitting on their hands and to stop waiting for someone else to sort things out. Take to the streets by the millions in peaceful but highly disruptive protests until parliament is recalled in an emergency session by shutting down the country. Form peoples' parliaments in the political vacuum of prorogation to frighten the elected parliamentarians back to their benches and then frighten them more through the out of doors to sort out Brexit fast or to submit to a people's parliament naming representatives to deal with the EU negotiations. Scare the crap out of the U.K. political and financial establishment until they turn the wheels to remedy the situation or until they that authority/influence and the out of doors compels the government.

    Britain's constitutional history was made by Britons who were not afraid to confront the powers that be. They had courage and fortitude so either died for their beliefs or won their reforms or revolutions. Courage, iron will and bloody-minded focus tempered by pragmatic compromise are the checks and balances which have both protected and reshaped Britain's constitutional history for a millennium. It's a messy recipe but its flexibility and its effectiveness have been proved over and over again for those willing to lay it all on the line. Democracy is a rude and often painful business and having the wisdom to see that and the courage to participate in it nonetheless makes it more stable in the long-run, because it can more easily correct its own mistakes when it has gotten things wrong. Republics tend to atrophy and become too hard and brittle to survive over the truly long-haul.

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    What will happen to the Conservative Party in Britain? It will collapse, disintegrate, rebuild and reemerge as a political force in good time, perhaps with significant rebranding to wash away the stains and stink from Cameron's Folly (Brexit and direct democracy). What needs immediate reform is who will guide the ressurrection of the party. Will it be class, financial and commercial elites alone with narrow and largely exclusive interests for the UK down the road? Will it be a more responsive and broad-spectrum mix of conservative and centrist participants and interests aiming to stabilise the rocking ship of state and to responsibly address the many structural and wide-spread economic problems which plague many Britons looking for a new but careful way forward (compassionate conservatism)? How that rebirth plays out will mark the success or failure of the next iteration of the a Conservative Party.

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    "At the heart of quantum mechanics is a rule that sometimes governs politicians or CEOs - as long as no one is watching, anything goes.
    ― Lawrence M. Krauss

  4. #24
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    ~----------------- So you seem to be calling for a republican United Kingdom rather than a parliamentary United Kingdom. Is this so?
    Errh, the two are not mutually exclusive. And as I said, I'm neither opposed to nor supportive of the monarchy. Beyond which "the House" in the US IS a parliament within a republic.

    Spain, where I live, IS a constitutional monarchy WITH BOTH parliament and a written constitution.

    ~.....................The problem from my point of view is that republics lack long-term flexibility and, if written constitutions are not very well composed and crafted, can entrench power even more firmly than a fluid parliamentary system, making reform much harder and tyranny/oligarchy more likely. The "cousins" from across the pond have watched more of their citizens die to domestic gun violence than citizens have died in foreign wars and that is because of the entrenchment of the US gun culture in a poorly written (in my opinion) constitutional amendment.................~
    having edited the rest for sake of brevity and thus easier reading of the one point I wish to address here, the US "gun culture" is IMO not a thing arising from there being a written constitution. The second amendment is just what the name says, an amendment. Amendments can be changed by further amendments, that's why they're called amendments. That there is not sufficient political appetite across the whole nation altogether for such change is not a problem of there being a written constitution.

    But to get away from digressing into US matters (and return in a roundabout way to "Europe"), Germany, for instance, has a written constitution, tailored in large parts from the US one. And Germany has NO "gun culture" like the US.

    Addendums:

    1) I don't particularly like the term gun culture anyway, seeing how it excludes all or any other aspects a culture might be made of. In that sense I'd otherwise be tempted to "garnish" the US with having a culture of violence, easier availability of guns (compared to others) just presenting the tool of more visible manifestation of said violence. But that would be just as much a generalization.

    2) There is no perfection in any system but I maintain my position that a country (organized on democratic principles)with a written constitution is better off then a country without one.
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    What will happen to the Conservative Party in Britain? It will collapse, disintegrate, rebuild and reemerge as a political force in good time, perhaps with significant rebranding to wash away the stains and stink from Cameron's Folly (Brexit and direct democracy). What needs immediate reform is who will guide the ressurrection of the party. Will it be class, financial and commercial elites alone with narrow and largely exclusive interests for the UK down the road? Will it be a more responsive and broad-spectrum mix of conservative and centrist participants and interests aiming to stabilise the rocking ship of state and to responsibly address the many structural and wide-spread economic problems which plague many Britons looking for a new but careful way forward (compassionate conservatism)? How that rebirth plays out will mark the success or failure of the next iteration of the a Conservative Party.

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    IMO as long as both "traditional" parties do not purge themselves of their radicals at whatever cost and thus pain, they'll lose more and more acceptance. Despite the current nation-wide folly (which does not represent the whole nation anyway), the majority of Brits have no taste for extremists.

    So Labour has to contain the Marxist faction as much as Tories have to contain or possibly eradicate the hedge-fonding sharks, since both are instrumentalizing actually existing issues to further their self aggrandizing ambitions. Neither of which serve the country and thus the people at all.
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    where next for the conservative Party ... Oblivion in Scotland and the same for there Red Tory pals LAbour as polls suggest SNP winning all 59 Scottish seats and a end to the UK
    "Great holy armies shall be gathered and trained to fight all who embrace evil. In the name of the gods, ships shall be built to carry our warriors out amongst the stars, and the wicked shall be vanquished, Hallowed are the Ori !!"

  7. #27
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    Re: Where next for British Conservatives?

    David Cameron's book reveals his feelings about Priti Patel, Gove and Johnson's lies doing the referendum campaign - notably this lie (not as big as the big red bus) where Michael Gove claimed that Turkey, Albania, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia would soon join and up to 5 million would suddenly move to the UK.

    Remain had nothing to combat the sheer power of fear of migration, we like to think facts win out but they most certainly didn't during the referendum. Mordaunt, Patel, Johnson and Gove all Conservatives and all liars to the core on this issue.
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