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Work life in Europe

FinnFox said:


I didn't know that you guys work in US often without employment contracts. In my bubble I was thinking it's just impossible. My guess is that some people in US may think that people in Europe are lazy (paid & long vacations), but I in my eyes it's good and needed to relax from work. Here in Finland 5 weeks paid vacation is normal and some people have even more (you get more days by working longer in same place).

Do you think that people in Europe are lazy because of longer vacations?
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I will not declare Europeans to be lazier, however it seems their philosophy on work doesn’t take into account the fact that many Americans enjoy working.

Work is a gift. I am happy working. Something it seems Europeans who I’ve talked to don’t understand is I do not wish to have 5 weeks paid vacation and the greater percentage of wages I keep without paying taxes plus my employer benefits puts me ahead of many European workers.

I get massive fulfillment in my life from work and my non working time I spend at my church. Many Western Europeans seem bewildered that someone who doesn’t receive insane social benefits and mandated paid vacation can actually be happy, and thats where I criticize their philosophy.
 
HumblePi said:
I don't understand what you mean by 'taking wage pressures off labor'. I don't know when the last time was that you had 2 kids in daycare and worked 80 hours a week. There's a good bit of pressure in that situation. People aren't as greedy as they are spoiled. People are accustomed to owning a home and having two cars in the garage. So, if that's their choosing then they'll have to work hard to maintain it. The number of hours any one person works has nothing to do with the actual value of their work.
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The problem is two kids in daycare, if the lesser earning spouse quit and became a stay at home parent and spent their time support the advancement of the higher earning spouses career then they would probably save money over day care.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
If you value quality of life over raw numbers, Europe is definitely the way to go.
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Quality of life is pretty good here in Finland too.

Mobile network is bad in Germany, you can have good connection in the city, but if you go to smaller towns you're most likely in out of service zone. Maybe that's the only aspect I can think of how Germany is behind Finland tech wise. Here you have to go really deep in huge forest to get out of mobile network zone (it's possible in Lapland and some other areas). Use of landline phone is going down fast, maybe here is around 100.000 left, but most of them are in firms or other non-personal use. One landline/mobile provider announced that this 2019 is last year when landline is still working. Funny thing is that some people have landline even when they use only mobile now - it's like old relic with no use. Having landline cost you more now than having mobile (you can get mobile for under 10€/month while landline is 25€/month even if you don't use it at all).
 
ElChupacabra said:
The rates clearly vary by country, and the ones with the stronger recoveries after 2008 have relatively low unemployment rates and still have tax funded healthcare and education.

This whole "who will pay for all the free stuff?" always cracks me up because it's as if we aren't paying for the consequences of these issues over here. The question is how we pay for it; whether it's to improve the potential outcomes for individuals or pay for managing the negative effects of not doing so.
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There's a small problem. Socialism doesn't work.

Unfunded Govt. Liabilities -- Our Ticking Time Bomb | RealClearPolitics
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I will not declare Europeans to be lazier, however it seems their philosophy on work doesn’t take into account the fact that many Americans enjoy working.

Work is a gift. I am happy working. Something it seems Europeans who I’ve talked to don’t understand is I do not wish to have 5 weeks paid vacation and the greater percentage of wages I keep without paying taxes plus my employer benefits puts me ahead of many European workers.

I get massive fulfillment in my life from work and my non working time I spend at my church. Many Western Europeans seem bewildered that someone who doesn’t receive insane social benefits and mandated paid vacation can actually be happy, and thats where I criticize their philosophy.
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I'm not sure if you have a family or not, but if you don't then that's where people often complain about not having enough time in terms of work/life balance. I enjoy working as well, but it's measured against the other things I enjoy doing; like spending time with my family, cycling, and other leisurely activities. I can't speak for anyone else, but the time away from work helps me re-energize and come back to it in full swing.

Attitudes toward work vary by individual and culture; some in Asian countries think we don't work enough because their focus is based solely on meeting their company's demands. In some of those cases, those views are heavily influenced by corporate propaganda and a philosophy that favors efforts toward the greater good.
 
ElChupacabra said:
You mean the unfunded liabilities no one in this administration has addressed either? Plus added to our growing deficit with the unfunded tax cut?
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How about market forces that can help correct this downward spiral. [instead of casting blame]

Correcting the tax and regulatory burden and putting people back to work certainly helps.
 
WCH said:
How about market forces that can help correct this downward spiral. [instead of casting blame]
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Such as?

Correcting the tax and regulatory burden and putting people back to work certainly helps.
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We're close to maximum employment; who are you looking to put back to work?
 
ElChupacabra said:
I'm not sure if you have a family or not, but if you don't then that's where people often complain about not having enough time in terms of work/life balance. I enjoy working as well, but it's measured against the other things I enjoy doing; like spending time with my family, cycling, and other leisurely activities. I can't speak for anyone else, but the time away from work helps me re-energize and come back to it in full swing.

Attitudes toward work vary by individual and culture; some in Asian countries think we don't work enough because their focus is based solely on meeting their company's demands. In some of those cases, those views are heavily influenced by corporate propaganda and a philosophy that favors efforts toward the greater good.
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Yeah, but you don’t need employment contracts and state mandated leave to obtain that.

I get all my religious holidays off, every Sunday off, I get time off for vacations and international travel and that’s just fine. And because of my country’s low taxes and low public benefits then I probably as a worker come out financially ahead. Plus I can quit whenever I want. I’ve used “at will employment” to quit jobs that weren’t a good fit. I was reading a quora post how you have to give 60 days notice to quit! I’ve literally quit and walked out of my workplace before in minutes, it is a freedom I love having. I call forced labor slavery
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Yeah, but you don’t need employment contracts and state mandated leave to obtain that.

I get all my religious holidays off, every Sunday off, I get time off for vacations and international travel and that’s just fine. And because of my country’s low taxes and low public benefits then I probably as a worker come out financially ahead. Plus I can quit whenever I want. I’ve used “at will employment” to quit jobs that weren’t a good fit. I was reading a quora post how you have to give 60 days notice to quit! I’ve literally quit and walked out of my workplace before in minutes, it is a freedom I love having. I call forced labor slavery
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There's always a trade off, and the main ideological difference is a focus on the greater good versus the individual good. Having a system which makes job loss less of a major life event prevents people falling between the cracks as often happens in this country. We can talk about people being prepared etc., but clearly that doesn't work as well as we'd like and we end up paying for it one way or the other. The question is whether we do so proactively or reactively; here we chose the latter. No system is perfect though.
 
Another interesting video, comparison Sweden vs US work life.



We don't have actual FIKA in Finland, but typical work day is with 2 breaks, lunch and one coffee break (official coffee break is only 10min, but can be longer... because why not).
 
FinnFox said:
Another interesting video, comparison Sweden vs US work life ~
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My younger brother used to work for Deloittes as a computer systems employee and would often get called on software / hardware support to fly to Philadelphia (among other places around the world).

In discussion with his American counterparts - he discovered it wasn't just quality of life that differed but contracts and security of work. Suffice to say, he liked his European conditions and was envied by the Americans he worked with for his job security and healthcare (even then - a mainland European computer systems employee working for Deloittes would have much better conditions than a British computer systems employee).
 
Helix said:
No, I think that the way we do it in the US is ****ing stupid. I didn't even get a day of paternity leave to bond with my kid. Had to use a week of PTO, which is what I have to use for sick days and everything else. I don't know how I'll pull off a family vacation when he gets older without buying PTO, which I can't afford. Our culture of hard work or whatever has been used as a weapon against workers.
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It is a disgrace that people do not get parental leave after birth. In the Netherlands women have 16 weeks of maternity leave. 6 weeks before the due date and 10 weeks after the due date. Maternity leave has to be started at the latest 4 weeks before the due date. But then the after birth maternity leave becomes 12 weeks so that it remains 16 weeks.

Say the birth takes place 3 weeks before the due date and the woman started her maternity leave 6 weeks before the due date than the 3 weeks gets added onto the after birth maternity leave so that it remains 16 weeks.

If the birth takes longer the total maternity leave is extended so that it will still be 10 weeks after the date of birth that a woman has maternity leave.

If a child has had to remain in hospital for several weeks than the maternity leave can be extended for a few more weeks.

Maternity leave is also for people who are on benefits. They too get 16 weeks of maternity leave.

People who are pregnant of twins or more get extra maternity leave of about 4 weeks. They can stop working 10 weeks before the due date.

From 2020 the leave that mates/husbands/fathers of newborns get will be 6 weeks.

If you child gets ill and nobody is able to care for the child, you can request 2 weeks of short term carers leave in the space of a year. During that time you will get the sick leave pay of 70% of your normal wage.

And then there is long term carers leave but that is not usually paid for by the employer unless the contract of the employee or the central agreement for that kind of work regulates that it is paid.

So as a Dutch parent you have maternity/paternity leave, parental leave (2 months in the first few years of your child's life) and carers leave.

Then there is calamity leave. Say your child falls and hurts himself and you have to take them to hospital that falls under calamity leave but that is only a short term paid leave system for real emergencies and calamities.

Then you also get child benefits for each child you have up to age 18.

If your child is 5 or younger you will get 247 dollars per 3 months. If you child is from 6 to 11 you will get 300 dollars per 3 months. If you child is from 12 to 17 you will get 353 dollars per 3 months. And that is per child, if you have 2 children you will get twice those amounts.

Life is reasonably good for Dutch parents and children, add to that the paid leave that parents have, it is not that strange that Dutch children are really happy. Good wages, plenty of free time, extra money for having children, etc. etc. etc. makes for a decent system for parents and children.
 
Peter King said:
It is a disgrace that people do not get parental leave after birth. In the Netherlands women have 16 weeks of maternity leave. 6 weeks before the due date and 10 weeks after the due date. Maternity leave has to be started at the latest 4 weeks before the due date. But then the after birth maternity leave becomes 12 weeks so that it remains 16 weeks.

Say the birth takes place 3 weeks before the due date and the woman started her maternity leave 6 weeks before the due date than the 3 weeks gets added onto the after birth maternity leave so that it remains 16 weeks.

If the birth takes longer the total maternity leave is extended so that it will still be 10 weeks after the date of birth that a woman has maternity leave.

If a child has had to remain in hospital for several weeks than the maternity leave can be extended for a few more weeks.

Maternity leave is also for people who are on benefits. They too get 16 weeks of maternity leave.

People who are pregnant of twins or more get extra maternity leave of about 4 weeks. They can stop working 10 weeks before the due date.

From 2020 the leave that mates/husbands/fathers of newborns get will be 6 weeks.

If you child gets ill and nobody is able to care for the child, you can request 2 weeks of short term carers leave in the space of a year. During that time you will get the sick leave pay of 70% of your normal wage.

And then there is long term carers leave but that is not usually paid for by the employer unless the contract of the employee or the central agreement for that kind of work regulates that it is paid.

So as a Dutch parent you have maternity/paternity leave, parental leave (2 months in the first few years of your child's life) and carers leave.

Then there is calamity leave. Say your child falls and hurts himself and you have to take them to hospital that falls under calamity leave but that is only a short term paid leave system for real emergencies and calamities.

Then you also get child benefits for each child you have up to age 18.

If your child is 5 or younger you will get 247 dollars per 3 months. If you child is from 6 to 11 you will get 300 dollars per 3 months. If you child is from 12 to 17 you will get 353 dollars per 3 months. And that is per child, if you have 2 children you will get twice those amounts.

Life is reasonably good for Dutch parents and children, add to that the paid leave that parents have, it is not that strange that Dutch children are really happy. Good wages, plenty of free time, extra money for having children, etc. etc. etc. makes for a decent system for parents and children.
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The rest of the first world does a lot of intelligent things that we should do here. However, every time it's tried, the right throws a tantrum and holds back progress. It's frustrating.

I was somewhat surprised to find that I was offered nothing when it came to paternity leave. Even a few weeks would have helped. My wife had a good delivery, but was in a lot of pain afterwards. After a week, I had to say, "welp, see ya, honey, I'm off to work. Good luck!" It's ****ing stupid to have a work / life setup like that.
 
Yes, I know very well it isn't 50% in the US.

More Trumpian bloviating.
 
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