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Nearly half of UK voters back no-deal Brexit and no PM Corbyn, poll finds

PeteEU said:
Only one benefiting for this scenario is Putin...but I am guessing that is what you want. The weaker the nations of Europe are the easier to bully or conquer...

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Not true. A UK/US deal that would be the envy of all would wake the EU from it’s stupor. It would pull its head out its ass and start thinking things through.

German practicality would overcome French insensibility.
 
ChezC3 said:
Not true. A UK/US deal that would be the envy of all would wake the EU from it’s stupor. It would pull its head out its ass and start thinking things through.

German practicality would overcome French insensibility.
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Yeah, but, y'know, just logistically there are so many quotidian things that a great UK/US deal is not going to have any relevance to. Trump's opening bid has been discounts on whiskey and Harley-Davidsons.

Second, German and French interests remain fundamentally dovetailed. Merkel's a class act and Macron an annoying buffoon, but this week they pulled off an impeccable good cop/bad cop routine on the visiting Boris.
 
ChezC3 said:
Not true. A UK/US deal that would be the envy of all would wake the EU from it’s stupor. It would pull its head out its ass and start thinking things through.

German practicality would overcome French insensibility.
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A US UK deal is useless for the UK.

Realistically the UK does not produce anything the US does not ( a few specialty items excepted) at better price with similar quality. The UK became a financial service center for the EU. The US does not need that. Cars are made at lower cost in the US so will agricultural products. The UK trade deficit already large will get larger as it has little to offer the US for export. It had a better competitive situation in the EU and it still has a large trade deficit. To compete UK workers would have to be as productive as Japanese and Korean workers. That will take quite a few years
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
A US UK deal is useless for the UK.

Realistically the UK does not produce anything the US does not ( a few specialty items excepted) at better price with similar quality. The UK became a financial service center for the EU. The US does not need that. Cars are made at lower cost in the US so will agricultural products. The UK trade deficit already large will get larger as it has little to offer the US for export. It had a better competitive situation in the EU and it still has a large trade deficit. To compete UK workers would have to be as productive as Japanese and Korean workers. That will take quite a few years
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Your not looking at it the correct way. The US is already UKs #1 trading partner.

Now what happens when a trade deal eliminates the need for #2 Germany $46.7B #3 Netherlands #4 $33.9 France $31.9B. Ireland, Belgium, etc etc

Seeing the picture?

Individually losing that trade hurts but taken on the whole from a EU perspective it could be devastating.

Is the EU really willing to get deeper under the sheets with China to make up the loss?

The sheer size of the US economy taking away business from the EU bit by bit while not overwhelmingly making a difference to the US will make a difference to the EU.

So while you won’t see some huge boon for America you will see a dramatic negative impact on the EU.

Want it to stop? Let’s start playing nice with your benefactor. Let’s start paying what’s owed and let’s start ending these ridiculous imbalances.
 
ChezC3 said:
Your not looking at it the correct way. The US is already UKs #1 trading partner.

Now what happens when a trade deal eliminates the need for #2 Germany $46.7B #3 Netherlands #4 $33.9 France $31.9B. Ireland, Belgium, etc etc

Seeing the picture?

Individually losing that trade hurts but taken on the whole from a EU perspective it could be devastating.

Is the EU really willing to get deeper under the sheets with China to make up the loss?

The sheer size of the US economy taking away business from the EU bit by bit while not overwhelmingly making a difference to the US will make a difference to the EU.

So while you won’t see some huge boon for America you will see a dramatic negative impact on the EU.

Want it to stop? Let’s start playing nice with your benefactor. Let’s start paying what’s owed and let’s start ending these ridiculous imbalances.
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The UK right now has a trade deficit of approx 20 billion with the US right now with EU tariffs on US products. Remove the tariffs the deficit will go up.
 
Grand Mal said:
Scotland on it's own would be disadvantaged for sure but Scotland in the EU? It's what the Scots want.
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Spain will never allow Scotland to join the EU as an independent state. Whether the Scots might like or dislike that possibility doesn't matter since it can't happen.
 
AmNat said:
Spain will never allow Scotland to join the EU as an independent state. Whether the Scots might like or dislike that possibility doesn't matter since it can't happen.
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When the UK disintegrates and you have Northern Ireland and Scotland knocking at the door - Spain will allow their membership. As long as it's not presented as an echo for the Catalan region to follow then there's no reason for Spain to be difficult.
 
PeteEU said:
Only one benefiting for this scenario is Putin...but I am guessing that is what you want. The weaker the nations of Europe are the easier to bully or conquer...

Sent from my Honor 8X using Tapatalk
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Seems the number one modus operandi for many alt-right Americans. Destroy the EU and benefit Putin - while losing a trading partner where the trade balance is actually beneficial to both markets.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The UK right now has a trade deficit of approx 20 billion with the US right now with EU tariffs on US products. Remove the tariffs the deficit will go up.
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It has a far greater one with the EU, some $69B is it when you take away the surplus from their services sector.

Also think of the possibilities, creating even deeper ties with already important Canada and definitely increasing trade with Mexico

Who will the EU turn to for their financial services that London currently provides? China? No. They're not going to break with London, they might put on a little show, but don't let them fool you, nothing substantial will be lost.

Got to stop looking at the short term and definitely stop listening to the sky is falling BS from the EU, their going to be in it a worse way than London will, believe me.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Seems the number one modus operandi for many alt-right Americans. Destroy the EU and benefit Putin - while losing a trading partner where the trade balance is actually beneficial to both markets.
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Oh FFS stop with the Putin is the sum of evil hell bent on destroying the world mishegas...

You might impress someone if you actually discussed the real threat to the EU (and the world) -- China.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Seems the number one modus operandi for many alt-right Americans. Destroy the EU and benefit Putin - while losing a trading partner where the trade balance is actually beneficial to both markets.
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I somehow doubt that supporting Putin's interest is really their objective.

The US alt-right delusionally follows the belief that a split Europe provides an easier set-up for individual deals (with its current members). This ambition they share however with Putin while being (ironically and stupidly) totally unaware of it.
 
Chagos said:
I somehow doubt that supporting Putin's interest is really their objective.

The US alt-right delusionally follows the belief that a split Europe provides an easier set-up for individual deals (with its current members). This ambition they share however with Putin while being (ironically and stupidly) totally unaware of it.
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What I said to him goes for you double...
 
Chagos said:
Corbyn is scum in that all he was and is interested in is getting into No. 10 in some way or other. In that he's no different to Johnson who actually proclaimed once that he'd be backing May's deal.

Neither are in this for the country, they're in it for totally self serving reasons that have nothing to do with Brexit (or not) beyond using the issue as a vehicle for their own narcissistic interests.
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Both sides are the same? Both sides suck? This sounds strangely familiar to us yanks... ;)
 
ChezC3 said:
It has a far greater one with the EU, some $69B is it when you take away the surplus from their services sector.

Also think of the possibilities, creating even deeper ties with already important Canada and definitely increasing trade with Mexico

Who will the EU turn to for their financial services that London currently provides? China? No. They're not going to break with London, they might put on a little show, but don't let them fool you, nothing substantial will be lost.

Got to stop looking at the short term and definitely stop listening to the sky is falling BS from the EU, their going to be in it a worse way than London will, believe me.
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London should be replaced as Europe's financial capital. It's infested with laundered Russian rubles.
 
Cordelier said:
My thanks to Lord Halifax. No doubt the Italians should now be approached for acceptable peace terms.

I'll be perfectly honest with you... I don't understand all of this hand-wringing on the part of a lot of the "remain" crowd. The UK is a strong and vibrant country fully capable of thriving on it's own merits. It did before and it'll do so again.... just like it always had to whenever the chips are down and the times require action, enterprise and vigour.

Admittedly, EU membership was a safe and comfortable harbor... and there promises to be some rough weather once you sail out beyond the bar. Like the saying goes "A ship in harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are for...". If you want to embrace opportunity, first you must embrace challenge. Leave the comfy houseboats for the Europeans.
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Stop deluding yourself. The UK is only a shadow of what she was before WWII.
 
ChezC3 said:
It has a far greater one with the EU, some $69B is it when you take away the surplus from their services sector.

Also think of the possibilities, creating even deeper ties with already important Canada and definitely increasing trade with Mexico

Who will the EU turn to for their financial services that London currently provides? China? No. They're not going to break with London, they might put on a little show, but don't let them fool you, nothing substantial will be lost.

Got to stop looking at the short term and definitely stop listening to the sky is falling BS from the EU, their going to be in it a worse way than London will, believe me.
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Just because the UK would have a trade deal with the US does not mean it will have one with Canada automatically (to note Canada and the UK have one right now through the Can EU FTA

Financial services will be brought home, at least that is what European countries want. That and automotive will be the biggest hits to the UK economy. Auto exports to the EU will be hi with a 10% tariff, and certain financial services done for EU internal transactions I believe will be restricted, add in more difficult travel and some financial services will go back to European countries

The UK will be upset with the US, at the giant sucking sound of jobs going to the US, like the US was upset with the giant sucking sound of jobs going to Mexico
 
Sven Karma said:
Ah, ok, you see the situation in terms of that Ben Garrison cartoon of the Brexit UK sailing away into an unspecified sunset situation whilst the EU boat topples over a waterfall.

Nope. The EEC/EU may not be the ideal city on a hill, though where is, but for the UK joining it has been our slowburn 1776 moment. This ship you speak of, it's the same one aggravated you into independence! You should be happy we finally started moving away from the system you rebelled against rather than encouraging us to go back to sea in a sieve that should have long since been scuttled.
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Not really - I had never seen that cartoon until I looked it up because of your post. I wish I hadn't, because it's garbage.

I've got nothing against the EU - I think the concept of a united Europe is a good and great thing. I'm also very pro-immigration - I feel a strong, vibrant and free society should have nothing to fear by welcoming people to embrace their principles. It's only the North Koreas of the world where immigration isn't an issue. If I were a Brit and voted in the referendum, I definitely would have voted to "remain".

All of that being said, though, I think both of us can agree that culturally, Britain within the EU wasn't exactly an easy fit. The French could just slide those jeans on and they were a perfect fit - they were made for it.... The Brits, well, not so much. Some people can wear skinny jeans... others lean more toward relaxed fit. Britain is definitely more in the latter category.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Stop deluding yourself. The UK is only a shadow of what she was before WWII.
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I wouldn't say that... sure, maybe if you perceive the world in a territorial "imperial" sense, it might be true. But I think empires have a way of degrading people... not only the people who are ruled and obviously degraded by the subjugation, but also the people who rule as well - it tends to make people lose their moral bearings. In point of fact, I think Britain gained more than it lost by abandoning it's empire... by throwing out that musty old Victorian wardrobe they let some fresh air into what it means to be British, and in a lot of ways I see Britain still adapting to that reality. When they're at their best, the Brits are a resourceful, energetic and enterprising people capable of competing with the world. At their worst, they can be unbearably set in their ways and resistant to change. Leaving the EU is a big change - there is going to be a lot to get used to... but there are also going to be opportunities available that weren't obvious before. There's no reason why Britain can't excel as an island off the coast of Europe any less than Japan can excel as an island off the coast of Asia.
 
ChezC3 said:
Oh FFS stop with the Putin is the sum of evil hell bent on destroying the world mishegas...

You might impress someone if you actually discussed the real threat to the EU (and the world) -- China.
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This is what they normally do anytime they start to lose the argument.
 
Cordelier said:
I wouldn't say that... sure, maybe if you perceive the world in a territorial "imperial" sense, it might be true. But I think empires have a way of degrading people... not only the people who are ruled and obviously degraded by the subjugation, but also the people who rule as well - it tends to make people lose their moral bearings. In point of fact, I think Britain gained more than it lost by abandoning it's empire... by throwing out that musty old Victorian wardrobe they let some fresh air into what it means to be British, and in a lot of ways I see Britain still adapting to that reality. When they're at their best, the Brits are a resourceful, energetic and enterprising people capable of competing with the world. At their worst, they can be unbearably set in their ways and resistant to change. Leaving the EU is a big change - there is going to be a lot to get used to... but there are also going to be opportunities available that weren't obvious before. There's no reason why Britain can't excel as an island off the coast of Europe any less than Japan can excel as an island off the coast of Asia.
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Whether for better or for worse, my overarching point stands. The UK is only a shadow of what she was before WWII.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Whether for better or for worse, my overarching point stands. The UK is only a shadow of what she was before WWII.
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What actually escapes most of those believing the advertisements of a glorious future Britain, post EU, is that it is exactly the nostalgia for past imperial might that is driving the Leave instigators.

Not every leave voter may share into this, in fact I'd wager that most don't, but the likes of Reese-Mogg and Francois (etc.) can barely conceal their MBGA delusions.

When, that is, they're not too occupied with advance-counting their personal profits that they hope to gain by betting against their own country, just so as make the perfect hedge.
 
Chagos said:
What actually escapes most of those believing the advertisements of a glorious future Britain, post EU, is that it is exactly the nostalgia for past imperial might that is driving the Leave instigators.

Not every leave voter may share into this, in fact I'd wager that most don't, but the likes of Reese-Mogg and Francois (etc.) can barely conceal their MBGA delusions.

When, that is, they're not too occupied with advance-counting their personal profits that they hope to gain by betting against their own country, just so as make the perfect hedge.
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I expect they will try to ride the coattails of the US, to believe it was the UK being the leader instead of the follower
 
Cordelier said:
Okay... let's try a different tack, then. In what sense?
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In many ways

Economic power (relative to rest of world) The UK before WW2 was probably #2 or 3 in economic power given its colonial holdings, and it was much closer to that of the US than it is now. Now it is # 4 or 5 in world GDP and multiple times lower than the US and China

Military Power. The UK used to rule the seas, its navy was prior to WW2 was one of the most powerful in the world, it had fleets that could sail the world. Now it struggles to maintain the smallest number of ships it has had in over 150 years. Its aircraft carrier is yet to carry planes (waiting for the F35B)

Political power. With its colonial holdings and near vassal state of Canada, New Zealand and Australia it held probably the most political power in the world. Now it is a mid level power that can not force its will on any but the weakest countries. In the 1920s it was able to control Iraq by itself, today it could not dream of being able to control Iraq.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
In many ways

Economic power (relative to rest of world) The UK before WW2 was probably #2 or 3 in economic power given its colonial holdings, and it was much closer to that of the US than it is now. Now it is # 4 or 5 in world GDP and multiple times lower than the US and China

Military Power. The UK used to rule the seas, its navy was prior to WW2 was one of the most powerful in the world, it had fleets that could sail the world. Now it struggles to maintain the smallest number of ships it has had in over 150 years. Its aircraft carrier is yet to carry planes (waiting for the F35B)

Political power. With its colonial holdings and near vassal state of Canada, New Zealand and Australia it held probably the most political power in the world. Now it is a mid level power that can not force its will on any but the weakest countries. In the 1920s it was able to control Iraq by itself, today it could not dream of being able to control Iraq.
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In all of those measures, though, the UK is still a world-class power on roughly on par with any other within the developed world. I don't think it's a fair assessment to classify them as a "shadow" of their former self. They just have different priorities in a different world. Going from superpower status to major power status is hardly the same as becoming a third-world nation.
 
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