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Nearly half of UK voters back no-deal Brexit and no PM Corbyn, poll finds

bearpoker said:
If that were to happen, would there be a UK anymore? Does Whales count as a separate country or is it part of England?
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A recent poll found that English Brexiteers would be happy to see the end of the UK as long as Brexit happened. If you read comments sections here, there's no end of people and history Brexiteers are willing to throw out so they can leap off that cliff.

Drawdown said:
Much to their credit, I have encountered several Brits who voted against Brexit who accepted that they lost, oppose a second referendum, and have believed all along that Brexit must happen not because they like the idea but because the referendum results mandated it.
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This has always been my position on the forum. We lost the vote and really should have implemented it straight away. The problem was the Brexiteers stabbed each other in the back when a new PM was to be elected in 2016 after David Cameron stepped down and then when Parliament took over the process in January this year - none of the Brexiteers put forward their own amendments or propositions to be voted on.
Brexiteers have blamed Parliament at every opportunity or blamed people who vote Leave: however they have turned a blind eye to hedge fund capitalists in Leave who have bet against the UK economy or ignored reports of Brexit economists who stated UK industry and agriculture needed to be run down over the next 80+ years for the rebuilding to begin.

My position is that we need to lose what we have to understand what we have thrown away. I believe that if a 2nd referendum is held too soon, Brexiteers will continue agitating against our remaining yet again. They need to be shown up and it will cost us our economy and country but the Brexit argument needs to die the death of hard exposure to reality.
 
Sven Karma said:
There have been plenty of Kings in Wales though nowadays it's just a principality. Henry VII (Henry Tudor) made much of his Welsh ancestry when he seized power and became King and I guess it was after that that 'England and Wales' acquired a unified legal system.

Henry VII of England - Wikipedia
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Of course. I'd forgotten about theTudors. They were a kind of Golden Age in English history, too. Well, allowing for the brutality of the times. If I remember right, James Stewart united the crowns after Elizabeth, Henry's daughter, died without an heir.
 
Odd there was no option of "Anyone but Corbyn".. Or any alternatives.

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Infinite Chaos said:
A recent poll found that English Brexiteers would be happy to see the end of the UK as long as Brexit happened. If you read comments sections here, there's no end of people and history Brexiteers are willing to throw out so they can leap off that cliff.



This has always been my position on the forum. We lost the vote and really should have implemented it straight away. The problem was the Brexiteers stabbed each other in the back when a new PM was to be elected in 2016 after David Cameron stepped down and then when Parliament took over the process in January this year - none of the Brexiteers put forward their own amendments or propositions to be voted on.
Brexiteers have blamed Parliament at every opportunity or blamed people who vote Leave: however they have turned a blind eye to hedge fund capitalists in Leave who have bet against the UK economy or ignored reports of Brexit economists who stated UK industry and agriculture needed to be run down over the next 80+ years for the rebuilding to begin.

My position is that we need to lose what we have to understand what we have thrown away. I believe that if a 2nd referendum is held too soon, Brexiteers will continue agitating against our remaining yet again. They need to be shown up and it will cost us our economy and country but the Brexit argument needs to die the death of hard exposure to reality.
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Here's what I don't understand with your point of view, IC.... What makes you so sure that the UK can't possibly eventually thrive on it's own? Sure, I grant you that a no-deal exit will inevitably involve some short-term pain while the economy restructures itself.... but who's to say that the end result won't be a long-term gain? The British are a tough, resourceful, enterprising and resilient people. Time and again, they've face adversity and come out the other side better off for it. Why are you so sure that won't be the case this time? The Britain you talk about - run down and taking 80+ years to rebuild - in no way, shape, or form resembles the Britain - or the British people - that I'm familiar with. Every true Brit I've ever known always seems to find a way to give better than they take.
 
Cordelier said:
Here's what I don't understand with your point of view, IC.... What makes you so sure that the UK can't possibly eventually thrive on it's own? Sure, I grant you that a no-deal exit will inevitably involve some short-term pain while the economy restructures itself.... but who's to say that the end result won't be a long-term gain? The British are a tough, resourceful, enterprising and resilient people. Time and again, they've face adversity and come out the other side better off for it. Why are you so sure that won't be the case this time? The Britain you talk about - run down and taking 80+ years to rebuild - in no way, shape, or form resembles the Britain - or the British people - that I'm familiar with. Every true Brit I've ever known always seems to find a way to give better than they take.
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Of course Britain will continue in some form. Anyhow, you question the 80 years statement - well here's the ONE economist who supports Brexit before a Parliamentary committee where he couldn't lie as BoJo and the Leave campaign did to the public.

You may not understand the significance of the statement "we'll have to run it down like we did the coal industry" so it's worth looking at what happened in the UK in the 1980's. I actually supported Thatcher and still do - but not in everything and some things were questionable but there are whole trenches of the UK that have not survived or given back better than they had to deal with then.

Rory Stewart on Twitter: "Patrick Minford answering my question on the potential impact of a harder Brexit on the UK car industry in 2012.… "
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Of course Britain will continue in some form. Anyhow, you question the 80 years statement - well here's the ONE economist who supports Brexit before a Parliamentary committee where he couldn't lie as BoJo and the Leave campaign did to the public.

You may not understand the significance of the statement "we'll have to run it down like we did the coal industry" so it's worth looking at what happened in the UK in the 1980's. I actually supported Thatcher and still do - but not in everything and some things were questionable but there are whole trenches of the UK that have not survived or given back better than they had to deal with then.

Rory Stewart on Twitter: "Patrick Minford answering my question on the potential impact of a harder Brexit on the UK car industry in 2012.… "
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I'm sorry, but to me that's akin to arguing that Coventry Cathedral still hasn't recovered from the Blitz. I realize people were hurt by the downsizing in the coal industry - but what'd they expect? Everything was just going to keep on going the same way it always had, the NCB pumping out union wages to unprofitable mines? Things change... that's life. You either adapt and roll with the punches, or you keep going the same way and take it on the chin.

Economies are like sailing yachts... they're either built for speed or for comfort. Your choice. But if you try to split the difference and have it both ways, I guarantee you're not going to do either well.
 
PeteEU said:
Odd there was no option of "Anyone but Corbyn".. Or any alternatives.
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It's harder to manufacture profitable headlines if you give people too many options in your poll questions. In this example, it didn't matter what the result actually was, there was a story to be spun out of it.
 
Here's what I don't get about this whole matter... if Corbyn was so in favor of the Irish backstop and avoiding a no-deal Brexit, then why didn't he vote for May's EU deal that accomplished just that?
 
Corbyn is scum in that all he was and is interested in is getting into No. 10 in some way or other. In that he's no different to Johnson who actually proclaimed once that he'd be backing May's deal.

Neither are in this for the country, they're in it for totally self serving reasons that have nothing to do with Brexit (or not) beyond using the issue as a vehicle for their own narcissistic interests.
 
Chagos said:
Corbyn is scum in that all he was and is interested in is getting into No. 10 in some way or other. In that he's no different to Johnson who actually proclaimed once that he'd be backing May's deal.

Neither are in this for the country, they're in it for totally self serving reasons that have nothing to do with Brexit (or not) beyond using the issue as a vehicle for their own narcissistic interests.
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He was Foreign Secretary... he wasn't about to undercut his PM by giving her anything less than unqualified support going into the negotiations. When the deal that emerged was one that he couldn't support in good conscience, then he resigned. Agree with him or not, I'm not sure where you think the fault lies in his actions.

Let me ask you this, Chagos.... there are 650 MP's in the House of Commons. You don't like Corbyn and you don't like Johnson.... so which one of the other 648 would you say most closely represents your viewpoint?
 
Cordelier said:
Here's what I don't get about this whole matter... if Corbyn was so in favor of the Irish backstop and avoiding a no-deal Brexit, then why didn't he vote for May's EU deal that accomplished just that?
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Because - leaving the backstop out of it - there were many 'red lines' Theresa May drew up in the negotiations (to appease internal Tory factions) that made the end product unacceptable to the Labour Party except for its nuttier outliers, Kate Hoey e.g.

The irony is that had the General Election campaign lasted a week longer, we could well have had a Corbyn PM in 2017, and a Brexit already successfully enacted on the framework of the original Leave campaign.
 
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Sven Karma said:
Because - leaving the backstop out of it - there were many 'red lines' Theresa May drew up in the negotiations (to appease internal Tory factions) that made the end product unacceptable to the Labour Party except for its nuttier outliers, Kate Hoey e.g.

The irony is that had the General Election campaign lasted a week longer, we could well have had a Corbyn PM in 2017, and a Brexit already successfully enacted on the framework of the original Leave campaign.
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Seems to me that May was willing to risk offending the outliers in her party to try and get a deal... couldn't Corbyn have responded in kind? If he had put country above party and actually sat down and dealt with May, don't you think the UK would be in far better position facing far easier decisions than it finds itself today?
 
I've long since tired of people who, on this issue, can't get their facts right, but nevertheless pompously spout their perceptions as gospel.

Johnson (reportedly) announced his support for May's deal long after his resignation as FM, (March this year).

With May agreeing to step down, he began to see his chances of ascending to Tory leadership the way he always intended, but then recognized his prospects as being somewhat slim, so then got back on the ERG bandwaggon to garner the support he desired and needed.

He's as much opportunistic scum as is Corbyn and a liar to boot.

Beyond which I don't respond to challenges from anyone as utterly uninformed as one gets to see here, not to mention that this thread isn't about defining what any popular alternative to either of these scums might be.
 
Not every weakling is a coward but all cowards are weaklings.

With Corbyn we don't have to indulge in such ambitious arithmetic though, seeing how he's both.

Had Corbyn won in 2017 (as Sven Karma outlines), all signs of today and the past show that this would have saddled the UK with exactly the unfit leadership that the LibDems (seemingly) now reject with utter justification. That this rejection now sabotages any cross-aisle unity in preventing a no deal crash out is most regrettable, but at least Swinson is showing a smidgen of what the other two lack.

Principle born from character.

And where said rejection helps the country not at all, I'm with IC on his take that the country is beyond help by now anyway and subsequently deserves all it's going to get.

Beyond all the tasks it faces for the future, the main one (far beyond considerations of economics) will have to be that of creating a political class that can garner at least a smidgen of respect among people of all and any political lean.

With the current specimen all deserving to be taken to the embankment, there to be, if not summarily shot, at least publicly flogged.
 
Cordelier said:
Seems to me that May was willing to risk offending the outliers in her party to try and get a deal... couldn't Corbyn have responded in kind? If he had put country above party and actually sat down and dealt with May, don't you think the UK would be in far better position facing far easier decisions than it finds itself today?
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No, she was entirely unwilling to risk offending them at any point, let alone the 17th century demands of the Democratic Unionist Party on whom this 'government' depends, that's why she drew up such an unwieldy tangle of red lines to begin with came out with the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' mantra.

Now, I am by no means a fan of the meandering streak of uselessness that is Jeremy Corbyn, but as Leader of the Opposition he couldn't just sit down and deal with May until she, as PM, invited him to do so, which she didn't do until absurdly late in the day and on terms that doomed any practical co-operation from the start because she, just like Boris, puts Party unity above any concern for that of the country.
 
After a no-deal Brexit, Britain is set to sign a free trade agreement with Japan. The UK’s International Trade Secretary has signed a ‘continuity’ trade agreement with South Korea on August 22. The deal agreement allows businesses from both countries to trade freely following Britain’s exit from the European Union. There is also great political will in both the US and the UK to complete a post-Brexit trade deal. A British-American free trade agreement would help us combat China's attempts to alter the rules of the road for trade.

British International Trade Secretary Liz Truss told Japanese trade minister Hiroshige Seko over the phone Tuesday of her country's willingness to quickly conclude a free trade agreement with Japan after Britain's planned exit from the European Union on Oct. 31.

The two held phone talks apparently for the first time since the British minister took office in late July.

In the talks, Truss also expressed Britain's interest in joining the Trans-Pacific Partnership multilateral free trade framework and confirmed her intention to visit Japan before the Brexit date to discuss the FTA and the TPP.

"After we leave the EU, we have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to put British businesses at the center of the world's fastest growing regions, and a close partnership with Japan will be a key part of this future," Truss said following the call.
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ThirdTerm said:
After a no-deal Brexit, Britain is set to sign a free trade agreement with Japan. The UK’s International Trade Secretary has signed a ‘continuity’ trade agreement with South Korea on August 22. The deal agreement allows businesses from both countries to trade freely following Britain’s exit from the European Union. There is also great political will in both the US and the UK to complete a post-Brexit trade deal. A British-American free trade agreement would help us combat China's attempts to alter the rules of the road for trade.
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Truss is a moron with the cognitive acuity of an amoeba. If no deal happens, then everything stops. WTO rules REQUIRE that tariffs be applied. WE would have chosen to raise the prices we pay!

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Chagos said:
I've long since tired of people who, on this issue, can't get their facts right, but nevertheless pompously spout their perceptions as gospel.

Johnson (reportedly) announced his support for May's deal long after his resignation as FM, (March this year).

With May agreeing to step down, he began to see his chances of ascending to Tory leadership the way he always intended, but then recognized his prospects as being somewhat slim, so then got back on the ERG bandwaggon to garner the support he desired and needed.

He's as much opportunistic scum as is Corbyn and a liar to boot.

Beyond which I don't respond to challenges from anyone as utterly uninformed as one gets to see here, not to mention that this thread isn't about defining what any popular alternative to either of these scums might be.
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Yes, well, childishly superfluous personal characterizations aside, Johnson did vote "Yea" on the Third Meaningful vote of March 29, 2019. I'm curious... how would you have voted on that division?
 
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Sven Karma said:
No, she was entirely unwilling to risk offending them at any point, let alone the 17th century demands of the Democratic Unionist Party on whom this 'government' depends, that's why she drew up such an unwieldy tangle of red lines to begin with came out with the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' mantra.

Now, I am by no means a fan of the meandering streak of uselessness that is Jeremy Corbyn, but as Leader of the Opposition he couldn't just sit down and deal with May until she, as PM, invited him to do so, which she didn't do until absurdly late in the day and on terms that doomed any practical co-operation from the start because she, just like Boris, puts Party unity above any concern for that of the country.
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Nevertheless, she did have a significant portion of the right-wing of the Conservative Party join with the DUP (in conjunction, it should be noted, with the Labour party [sans the Kate Hoey-style "nutty outliers", as you call them]) to oppose all three of her meaningful votes. It seems to me that Corbyn could have at least made a realistic offer - either in person or in public - for the support of his party in any of those votes, could he not?
 
I suppose I could repeat the first and the last sentence of post #42 here, but if it wasn't read (let alone understood) the first time round, not much point in wasting my time with that.

That personal consideration may be seen as an aside by others, to me it ain't.
 
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Cordelier said:
Nevertheless, she did have a significant portion of the right-wing of the Conservative Party join with the DUP (in conjunction, it should be noted, with the Labour party [sans the Kate Hoey-style "nutty outliers", as you call them]) to oppose all three of her meaningful votes. It seems to me that Corbyn could have at least made a realistic offer - either in person or in public - for the support of his party in any of those votes, could he not?
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Really, there was no meaningful 'realistic offer' he could have made, simply because so much of the deal became tangled up in internal Tory politicking. At one point the not exactly natural bedfellows of the Trade Unions and the Confederation of British Industry issued a joint statement calling on May to get her **** sorted (I paraphrase). And I doubt either of them have been reassured by BoJo's performance so far.
 
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