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Nearly half of UK voters back no-deal Brexit and no PM Corbyn, poll finds

Cordelier said:
Okay... let's try a different tack, then. In what sense?
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You already received your answer(s). You just don't agree with them.

Just a few weeks ago GB was a bit embarrassed when she didn't have another ship ready on hand to send to the Persian Gulf.

It required a week or so to get another frigate to the Gulf trouble spot (due to the Gibraltar incident).

Back in the day, no ME country would have dared hijack a British commercial ship.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Just because the UK would have a trade deal with the US does not mean it will have one with Canada automatically (to note Canada and the UK have one right now through the Can EU FTA

Financial services will be brought home, at least that is what European countries want. That and automotive will be the biggest hits to the UK economy. Auto exports to the EU will be hi with a 10% tariff, and certain financial services done for EU internal transactions I believe will be restricted, add in more difficult travel and some financial services will go back to European countries

The UK will be upset with the US, at the giant sucking sound of jobs going to the US, like the US was upset with the giant sucking sound of jobs going to Mexico
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They have deals with Mexico and Canada both, and I'm not trying to be funny here, but you do know that Canada and UK share the same head of state and monarch, right?

UK and Canada have bi-lateral trade agreements, with the UK coming in 3rd behind US and China as far as importance and the UK being the 2nd largest consumer of Canadian goods.

Stronger ties with Canada, especially with a newly invigorated relationship with the US would be almost a guarantee. Mexico, again while paltry in stature would and could benefit from London's financial services sectors,

With a new trade paradigm taking shape, the merger of TSE and LSE that failed to get sufficient backing in 2011 on Canada's side could very well find new support if renewed. Whose to say Wall St. wouldn't want to get in on that action either?

The point I'm making is there are myriad possibilities out there to mitigate potential losses the UK could suffer with a No Deal Brexit. While some short term pain might take place he UK will be just fine in the long run.
 
Rogue Valley said:
London should be replaced as Europe's financial capital. It's infested with laundered Russian rubles.
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While I know it is prevalent by far, do you think they're the lone ranger in this? Do you think rubles won't find another home?

London will keep the rubles too...
 
Chagos said:
I somehow doubt that supporting Putin's interest is really their objective.

The US alt-right delusionally follows the belief that a split Europe provides an easier set-up for individual deals (with its current members). This ambition they share however with Putin while being (ironically and stupidly) totally unaware of it.
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I doubt the two alt-right Americans here even care about dealing and trade. It's more likely fear of a European rival which they simply want to see fail. Putin wants discord and to support populist nationalist parties - some that want to break the EU up and others that just want to advance causes similar to his.
 
ChezC3 said:
They have deals with Mexico and Canada both, and I'm not trying to be funny here, but you do know that Canada and UK share the same head of state and monarch, right?

UK and Canada have bi-lateral trade agreements, with the UK coming in 3rd behind US and China as far as importance and the UK being the 2nd largest consumer of Canadian goods.

Stronger ties with Canada, especially with a newly invigorated relationship with the US would be almost a guarantee. Mexico, again while paltry in stature would and could benefit from London's financial services sectors,

With a new trade paradigm taking shape, the merger of TSE and LSE that failed to get sufficient backing in 2011 on Canada's side could very well find new support if renewed. Whose to say Wall St. wouldn't want to get in on that action either?

The point I'm making is there are myriad possibilities out there to mitigate potential losses the UK could suffer with a No Deal Brexit. While some short term pain might take place he UK will be just fine in the long run.
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Canada and the UK do not have a bilateral trade agreement. Canada and the EU does. Mexico and the EU do as well neither are with the UK directly. They will need to be negotiated after the UK leaves the EU. Canada has no use for London as a financial service center as we have Toronto and NYC.

The queen as head of state in Canad is purely a figure head and has no real power
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Canada and the UK do not have a bilateral trade agreement. Canada and the EU does. Mexico and the EU do as well neither are with the UK directly. They will need to be negotiated after the UK leaves the EU. Canada has no use for London as a financial service center as we have Toronto and NYC.

The queen as head of state in Canad is purely a figure head and has no real power
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I was confusing two way trade with the bilateral agreements, my bad...but yes new agreements would be made. Saying Canada has no use for London's financial services is like saying you have no use for more money, that's preposterous. Integration maximizing profits and minimizing expenses is always an interest.

I understand what the Queen's role is, I was being playful in my describing the closeness of relations between the two countries..
 
ChezC3 said:
I was confusing two way trade with the bilateral agreements, my bad...but yes new agreements would be made. Saying Canada has no use for London's financial services is like saying you have no use for more money, that's preposterous. Integration maximizing profits and minimizing expenses is always an interest.

I understand what the Queen's role is, I was being playful in my describing the closeness of relations between the two countries..
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It can be of use, but it will not be significant. It's only practical use is in trade with the Uk, it would and was useful in trade with the EU. Sop


Integration maximizing profits and minimizing expenses is always an interest. YES, This is true, which is why leaving the EU is stupid. The EU was about integration and minimizing expenses. A continent of free trade, the free movement of labour to where it is needed, the standardization of safety requirements, all serve to lower expenses. The UK is leaving that, which is an idiotic thing to do

The closeness of the two countries has been in a steep decline especially in the last 30 years. The people in Canada who have any sort of direct connection to the UK, (more than grand or great grand parents is now quite small. Culturally and politically we are much closer to the US. Most 3rd or 4th generation Canadians with UK ancestry have likely mixed ethnic ties with quite a few other European countries by now, and the majority of immigrants to Canada over the last 30 years has been from eastern Europe, China, India and Pakistan. None of those groups have any particular cultural affinity to the UK. We have not had significant English immigration to Canada since the early 70s I believe. So the renewal of cultural ties has not occurred.
 
Cordelier said:
In all of those measures, though, the UK is still a world-class power on roughly on par with any other within the developed world. I don't think it's a fair assessment to classify them as a "shadow" of their former self. They just have different priorities in a different world. Going from superpower status to major power status is hardly the same as becoming a third-world nation.
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When you go from a superpower that has colonies across the world, in which only 4 or 5 countries could defend against an attack, to being only able to attack truly backward countries with the probability of being able to control them is going to a shadow of itself. Remember that India was for a long time the crown jewel of the English empire. Providing much of the wealth that made the UK what it was. A true world power. It is now a regional power, surrounded by countries of a similar power level. Only in parts of Africa, and Central America could it express its power like it used to
 
Rogue Valley said:
You already received your answer(s). You just don't agree with them.

Just a few weeks ago GB was a bit embarrassed when she didn't have another ship ready on hand to send to the Persian Gulf.

It required a week or so to get another frigate to the Gulf trouble spot (due to the Gibraltar incident).

Back in the day, no ME country would have dared hijack a British commercial ship.
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*L* Back in the day?? Who exactly would have been in a position to do so? The Ottoman Empire?!?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
I expect they will try to ride the coattails of the US, to believe it was the UK being the leader instead of the follower
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Maybe, but I also suspect that the US coattails are nowhere near as up for grabs (no pun intended) as some potential grabbers are prone to believe.

Certainly not with this administration, and never mind the noises over "fantastic" deals soon to be on offer.
 
Chagos said:
Maybe, but I also suspect that the US coattails are nowhere near as up for grabs (no pun intended) as some potential grabbers are prone to believe.

Certainly not with this administration, and never mind the noises over "fantastic" deals soon to be on offer.
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If the UK is willing to lube up, be quite and praise the Trump, the coattails are huge and could carry the UK behind it. What happens after the Trump is a different story.

I can not see the Trump being willing to give the UK a sweet heart trade deal, when the UK will be in a weak negotiating position. It does not seem to be Trumps style. I do not know Boris's personality enough to say how he would be in negotiating for the UK, other than he might sign a deal to make himself look good
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I doubt the two alt-right Americans here even care about dealing and trade. It's more likely fear of a European rival which they simply want to see fail. Putin wants discord and to support populist nationalist parties - some that want to break the EU up and others that just want to advance causes similar to his.
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By all signs that appears to be pretty much the Trump position, he also sees more benefit in dealing with "partners" individually than having to face a union of them.

He and Putin have the same goal for different reasons. What unites them is seeing a united Europe as detrimental to their individual interests, those (the latter) however not being identical.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
When you go from a superpower that has colonies across the world, in which only 4 or 5 countries could defend against an attack, to being only able to attack truly backward countries with the probability of being able to control them is going to a shadow of itself. Remember that India was for a long time the crown jewel of the English empire. Providing much of the wealth that made the UK what it was. A true world power. It is now a regional power, surrounded by countries of a similar power level. Only in parts of Africa, and Central America could it express its power like it used to
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What is it with this 19th Century mindset? One Trident missile fired from a single Vanguard-class submarine has many times greater destructive firepower than the combined ordnance of the Royal Navy from the time of the Spanish Armada up to and including World War II. It isn't about firepower anymore, and it isn't about territory. Those are outdated measures. Nowadays all that matters is economic competitiveness and a deft foreign policy. That's what gets you through the day. The days of gunboat diplomacy are long gone... and good riddance. In today's world, the countries that excel are the ones who can deal with one another as reasonable adults... not as children tussling in the playground. Welcome to the 21st Century.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
If the UK is willing to lube up, be quite and praise the Trump, the coattails are huge and could carry the UK behind it. What happens after the Trump is a different story.

I can not see the Trump being willing to give the UK a sweet heart trade deal, when the UK will be in a weak negotiating position. It does not seem to be Trumps style. I do not know Boris's personality enough to say how he would be in negotiating for the UK, other than he might sign a deal to make himself look good
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Yeah, exactly my point (bolded by me).

As to BoJo's personality, he's a buffoon. But unlike many of the court jesters of old, pretty much incompetent in whatever he touches. It just takes time for many to finally realize that (even his London Mayor track record was nowhere near as brilliant as he likes to make believe and as many still insist in believing).
 
The UK is currently neither economically competitive nor is it possessed of any deft foreign policy.

Whether it can change in either field remains to be seen.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It can be of use, but it will not be significant. It's only practical use is in trade with the Uk, it would and was useful in trade with the EU. Sop


Integration maximizing profits and minimizing expenses is always an interest. YES, This is true, which is why leaving the EU is stupid. The EU was about integration and minimizing expenses. A continent of free trade, the free movement of labour to where it is needed, the standardization of safety requirements, all serve to lower expenses. The UK is leaving that, which is an idiotic thing to do

The closeness of the two countries has been in a steep decline especially in the last 30 years. The people in Canada who have any sort of direct connection to the UK, (more than grand or great grand parents is now quite small. Culturally and politically we are much closer to the US. Most 3rd or 4th generation Canadians with UK ancestry have likely mixed ethnic ties with quite a few other European countries by now, and the majority of immigrants to Canada over the last 30 years has been from eastern Europe, China, India and Pakistan. None of those groups have any particular cultural affinity to the UK. We have not had significant English immigration to Canada since the early 70s I believe. So the renewal of cultural ties has not occurred.
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London is insignificant? LOL Come now... Stop with this nonsense as if the UK is jus this little island nation barely keeping it's head above water, only not to have sunk by the good and beneficent hands of the Merkel-Junker Gang....:lol:

To the direct benefit of certain countries over others.

You're forgetting the reason for the season. autonomy, sovereignty, decision making -- The whole reason I'm opposed to the EU in it's present form. The whole reason for Brexit. The fact that Britain feels they're putting in more than they're getting out. It isn't untrue. It always amazes me the amount of sacrifice some people expect others to endure for some promised benefit down the road. Especially, when those people aren't looking past the current quarter when making decisions. It's usually those same people carrying on about this threat or another usually inflated to create a sense of urgency to justify their short term thinking and providing shade to ignore the lurking dangers that are waiting down the road.

The EU has allowed every Mohummed, Patel, and Polski to make their way to the lands developed and, create undue burden on their welfare system, flood the job market, and lower wages for the indigenous people. They've hamstring bread and butter operations in the name of sharing and weakened traditionally strong, viable industries.

The people in the UK have seen what this experiment has done to them all the while strengthening Central and Western Europe and have said enough is enough. No Englishman should go without so that a German/Belgian/Polski/Frenchman can gain. It doesn't matter that down the road 20-50 years this may or may not pan out to be a benefit to all eventually it isn't working for them NOW.

It isn't stupid for the UK leave the EU now, it is imperative that they do while they still have an overwhelming advantage in the service sectors. Stupid would be to watch their goods sector continue to become obsolete while allowing the steady chipping away at their financial sector until the EU is strong enough economicaly as they've become politically. All based on voluntary concessions given for false promises.

The Canadian and UK governments don't share close ties now? I'm not talking about the people or culturally.
 
ChezC3 said:
London is insignificant? LOL Come now... Stop with this nonsense as if the UK is jus this little island nation barely keeping it's head above water, only not to have sunk by the good and beneficent hands of the Merkel-Junker Gang....:lol:

To the direct benefit of certain countries over others.

You're forgetting the reason for the season. autonomy, sovereignty, decision making -- The whole reason I'm opposed to the EU in it's present form. The whole reason for Brexit. The fact that Britain feels they're putting in more than they're getting out. It isn't untrue. It always amazes me the amount of sacrifice some people expect others to endure for some promised benefit down the road. Especially, when those people aren't looking past the current quarter when making decisions. It's usually those same people carrying on about this threat or another usually inflated to create a sense of urgency to justify their short term thinking and providing shade to ignore the lurking dangers that are waiting down the road.

The EU has allowed every Mohummed, Patel, and Polski to make their way to the lands developed and, create undue burden on their welfare system, flood the job market, and lower wages for the indigenous people. They've hamstring bread and butter operations in the name of sharing and weakened traditionally strong, viable industries.

The people in the UK have seen what this experiment has done to them all the while strengthening Central and Western Europe and have said enough is enough. No Englishman should go without so that a German/Belgian/Polski/Frenchman can gain. It doesn't matter that down the road 20-50 years this may or may not pan out to be a benefit to all eventually it isn't working for them NOW.

It isn't stupid for the UK leave the EU now, it is imperative that they do while they still have an overwhelming advantage in the service sectors. Stupid would be to watch their goods sector continue to become obsolete while allowing the steady chipping away at their financial sector until the EU is strong enough economicaly as they've become politically. All based on voluntary concessions given for false promises.

The Canadian and UK governments don't share close ties now? I'm not talking about the people or culturally.
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London as a financial service center for Canada is minor in importance to that of Toronto and NYC. It does not provide much that either of the other two provide. London is useful for trade with the UK and would have been useful for trade with the EU

Now as for muslims in the UK, most have immigrated to the UK from Pakistan, or places it was a former colonial power. Those groups got into the UK through UK immigration policies not EU policies. EU policies allowed for the Polish Plumber for instance to work in the UK. IE the lower cost and maximize profit for all.

The only close tie to the UK that is beyond cultural and people that we do not have with other European countries is the 5 Eyes Organization. An intelligence sharing agreement between the US UK Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Beyond that Germany is pretty much on par with the UK, so would France.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
London as a financial service center for Canada is minor in importance to that of Toronto and NYC. It does not provide much that either of the other two provide. London is useful for trade with the UK and would have been useful for trade with the EU

Now as for muslims in the UK, most have immigrated to the UK from Pakistan, or places it was a former colonial power. Those groups got into the UK through UK immigration policies not EU policies. EU policies allowed for the Polish Plumber for instance to work in the UK. IE the lower cost and maximize profit for all.

The only close tie to the UK that is beyond cultural and people that we do not have with other European countries is the 5 Eyes Organization. An intelligence sharing agreement between the US UK Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Beyond that Germany is pretty much on par with the UK, so would France.
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That doesn't mean it has to be, as I said, as early as 2011 LSE and TSE were looking to partner up.

The increase in foreigners has been due to EU policies, and this is on top of the Paki's ... When the polish plumber works the English plumber has to take a pay cut. That's not maximizing ****.

France I would say, Germany, no, I do not think Germany and Canada are equal in ties as UK and Canada. That is where the cultural and historic ties would be additional bindings, and the two countries important FDI is significant as well...
 
ChezC3 said:
That doesn't mean it has to be, as I said, as early as 2011 LSE and TSE were looking to partner up.

The increase in foreigners has been due to EU policies, and this is on top of the Paki's ... When the polish plumber works the English plumber has to take a pay cut. That's not maximizing ****.

France I would say, Germany, no, I do not think Germany and Canada are equal in ties as UK and Canada. That is where the cultural and historic ties would be additional bindings, and the two countries important FDI is significant as well...
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Canada buys probably triple the military equipment from Germany than it does the UK (will likely change with the new frigate program Canada is undertaking). The German economy is bigger and has a larger trade volume with Canada than Canada with the UK. Some older politicians in eastern Canada might feel an affinity with the UK, but in general any European Canadian under the age of 60 does not really care about the UK to any real degree. The only thing that brings up any excitement is the royal family and that is just because of their fame, not because of the figure head of being head of state.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
London as a financial service center for Canada is minor in importance to that of Toronto and NYC. It does not provide much that either of the other two provide. London is useful for trade with the UK and would have been useful for trade with the EU

Now as for muslims in the UK, most have immigrated to the UK from Pakistan, or places it was a former colonial power. Those groups got into the UK through UK immigration policies not EU policies. EU policies allowed for the Polish Plumber for instance to work in the UK. IE the lower cost and maximize profit for all.

The only close tie to the UK that is beyond cultural and people that we do not have with other European countries is the 5 Eyes Organization. An intelligence sharing agreement between the US UK Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Beyond that Germany is pretty much on par with the UK, so would France.
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Much of London's financial trade (along with many of the jobs) will be moving to Paris and Frankfurt.We will become even more of a low rate tax haven and money-laundering centre.
 
Here's a measure of where Brexit is after three years, and we haven't even left yet! Already there are shortages of particular drugs (sourced in Europe).

As for the future, NOBODY noted for this!

ECpvJpeXkAQMajA
 
Drawdown said:
Much to their credit, I have encountered several Brits who voted against Brexit who accepted that they lost, oppose a second referendum, and have believed all along that Brexit must happen not because they like the idea but because the referendum results mandated it.
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The referendum was advisory only, and was won due to illegal spending activity by the leave campaign.
 
Lies about foreign workers compounded by casual racism about muslims & Pakistanis. [/end thread]
 
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