View Poll Results: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

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  • Parents should not be able to pick and choose their children's lessons

    7 41.18%
  • Parents have a right to choose if their children have sex education classes

    10 58.82%
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Thread: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

  1. #61
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I am addressing the premise of the thread indicated by the poll on whether children should or should not be indoctrinated which, in this case, appeared that so-called 'sex education' was indeed more indoctrination than sex education.

    One more time. I am not the least bit homophobic and fully approve of all people being treated with kindness and respect regardless of their sexual orientation, race, gender, ethnicity or whatever. THAT is what schools should be demanding of the students. And THAT is ultimately what will result in the best situation for all people including LGBT people.

    Further gradeschoolers should not even be thinking about sex. They should be focused on being kids, hopefully respectful well mannered, kind kids, and learning the basic subjects they will need later on.
    I've yet to see where the school has actually engaged in "sex education?" I've also repeatedly pointed out that the school has been teaching something about which I really think you haven't actually understood the basics of or what the school has actually been engaged with.

    This may help
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    Really? Wanna know how they wash their babies in Africa? They spray them with breast milk and let the goats lick them clean.
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  2. #62
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I've yet to see where the school has actually engaged in "sex education?" I've also repeatedly pointed out that the school has been teaching something about which I really think you haven't actually understood the basics of or what the school has actually been engaged with.

    This may help
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    IC:

    An informative link there, thank you for posting it.

    What constitutes "British Values" as described in the opening of your linked article? Is the UK a homogeneous state with a defacto monoculture and one single and universal set of values? I admit it's been many years since I was last in the UK, but it never struck me as an homogeneous society with a universal value system. So who has made the decision of what British values are to be and should parents and dissenting communities have a say in determining such "universals"? When I lived in the West of England there was no homogeneous society, no monoculture and no universal set of values. Hardcore trade unionists with radical socialist inclinations mingled with conservative entrepreneurs and bankers who saw the world very differently. Stodgy social conservatives and peacenik hippies were both represented on the streets and lanes of Bristol while I lived there. Welsh, English and Cornish world views were very different and often clashed while the "Irish Question" was a spectre which haunted every room or gathering. There was no dominant religion in effect as Catholics, C of E'ers, Muslims, Hindus etc. were living together, sometimes in peace and sometimes in conflict. As many people embraced the big posters of David Bowie's androgynous Ziggy Stardust character as condemned them as literal signs of degradation in British culture. Europeans were both exotic neighbours and alien people and the debate to join the EEC was a very divisive issue in Bristol at the time. When I went to visit family in Glasgow or Inverness it was like driving through a quilt-work of many separate mini-countries along the route to the Highlands.

    In short there was no universal set of British Values back in the day, so why must one universal set be imposed by the state now?

    Now to the school and classroom level.

    What happens if a particularly determined student rejects the teachings of gender inclusivity in the classroom? Do they fail and get held back? What happens if a particularly bold student vocally rejects such teachings and repeatedly contradicts the teachings both inside and outside of class during unstructured time? Does such a student become a discipline problem and face suspension or expulsion at some point if they don't bend the knee to the prelates of British Values? When does standing up for one's values cease to be acceptable behaviour?

    Times of cultural transition are hard enough without laminating state-imposed diktats on what families and their children should or should not believe about how others choose or feel compelled to live their lives. If a non-binary, gender-fluid person wants to live in peace and harmony then, I support that and will aid them in any way I can. However if a non-binary, gender-fluid person wants to alter the way I or my loved-ones think or wants to compel the language which I or my family can use, then I will oppose that and will thwart them with all peaceful means at my disposal. The state has no right to impose a belief system on its people in a free and democratic society except in times of emergency or foreign peril and if the state dares to do so, then the people/electorate should take to the out of doors in order to correct such imperious arrogance and hubris immediately. Tolerance and understanding should be extended to both the avant guard and the more retrograde elements in a society equally, and social engineering should be avoided wherever and whenever possible in a free society.

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    Last edited by Evilroddy; 06-11-19 at 09:18 PM.
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  3. #63
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    IC:

    An informative link there, thank you for posting it.

    What constitutes "British Values" as described in the opening of your linked article? Is the UK a homogeneous state with a defacto monoculture and one single and universal set of values? I admit it's been many years since I was last in the UK, but it never struck me as an homogeneous society with a universal value system. So who has made the decision of what British values are to be and should parents and dissenting communities have a say in determining such "universals"? When I lived in the West of England there was no homogeneous society, no monoculture and no universal set of values. Hardcore trade unionists with radical socialist inclinations mingled with conservative entrepreneurs and bankers who saw the world very differently. Stodgy social conservatives and peacenik hippies were both represented on the streets and lanes of Bristol while I lived there. Welsh, English and Cornish world views were very different and often clashed while the "Irish Question" was a spectre which haunted every room or gathering. There was no dominant religion in effect as Catholics, C of E'ers, Muslims, Hindus etc. were living together, sometimes in peace and sometimes in conflict. As many people embraced the big posters of David Bowie's androgynous Ziggy Stardust character as condemned them as literal signs of degradation in British culture. Europeans were both exotic neighbours and alien people and the debate to join the EEC was a very divisive issue in Bristol at the time. When I went to visit family in Glasgow or Inverness it was like driving through a quilt-work of many separate mini-countries along the route to the Highlands.

    In short there was no universal set of British Values back in the day, so why must one universal set be imposed by the state now?

    Now to the school and classroom level.

    What happens if a particularly determined student rejects the teachings of gender inclusivity in the classroom? Do they fail and get held back? What happens if a particularly bold student vocally rejects such teachings and repeatedly contradicts the teachings both inside and outside of class during unstructured time? Does such a student become a discipline problem and face suspension or expulsion at some point if they don't bend the knee to the prelates of British Values? When does standing up for one's values cease to be acceptable behaviour?

    Times of cultural transition are hard enough without laminating state-imposed diktats on what families and their children should or should not believe about how others choose or feel compelled to live their lives. If a non-binary, gender-fluid person wants to live in peace and harmony then, I support that and will aid them in any way I can. However if a non-binary, gender-fluid person wants to alter the way I or my loved-ones think or wants to compel the language which I or my family can use, then I will oppose that and will thwart them with all peaceful means at my disposal. The state has no right to impose a belief system on its people in a free and democratic society except in times of emergency or foreign peril and if the state dares to do so, then the people/electorate should take to the out of doors in order to correct such imperious arrogance and hubris immediately. Tolerance and understanding should be extended to both the avant guard and the more retrograde elements in a society equally, and social engineering should be avoided wherever and whenever possible in a free society.

    Cheers.
    Evilroddy.
    Interesting post Evilroddy, but I would say this:

    Freedom of speech has always been a core British value. Not inciting hate hasn't always been, but it fortunately has become so. The problem is when it only works one way. For these people you can tell gays that they are not acceptable, that their love is second-rate and all the rest of it, but you DARE to suggest that a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim way of life is "unacceptable" or not equal and there's hell to play.


    Worse, you allow religious freedom, quite rightly, but then the minute you demand gay rights or reproductive rights for women, that's suddenly twisted round as being oppressive to religious beliefs. I mean, what the f***???!!


    These people can say what they like to their kids at home, and they will. Atheist parents have their kids taught about Christians and Jews and Muslims and Hindus. It doesn't make them religious but it shows them that such people exist are all worthy of respect. Even more important to show kids that gays are worthy of respect because while religion is a choice, sexuality isn't, and if at 15 or 16 you realise you are one of "those people" then you'll feel a lot better about yourself if at 5 somebody somewhere told you how it's OK. That's why this is so important.
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  4. #64
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilroddy View Post
    ~ What constitutes "British Values" as described in the opening of your linked article? ~
    there's a danger us becoming sidetracked off the thread about the school involved but "British Values" in education was originally encouraged as a reaction to radical preaching by fundamentalist imams and then later on, the large numbers of young muslims who rejected the ways of life of this society to go and join radical jihadi forces in the ME or who then created bombs to destroy their fellow citizens. It's equally important to reflect that those core British values are also meant to be a counter to hard-right ideology and fascist sympathisers.

    Note that I said "reaction" or "counter" and not to ban or abolish. I first joined this forum many years ago and have posted on a variety of subjects and very often on the problems of radical / immigrants who have not integrated or who were predators who viewed British girls as "easy meat" due to their very different view of what life in a modern Western society was like.

    The five British Values promoted in education are:

    • Democracy.
    • The rule of law.
    • Individual liberty.
    • Mutual respect.
    • Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.



    So, we are tolerant of people who believe women are chattel or that LGBT people are deviants who must be beheaded but we are free to challenge their beliefs when they are manifested legally. There is no demand that people in East Kilbride for example have the same culture or dialogue as those who live in London but the was of the land must apply equally; individual liberties are the same wherever you go (for all faiths / sexes and genders), your vote counts as much in Sunderland as it does in East Belfast and most importantly - there should be mutual respect promoted for LGBT people of whatever faith as there are for wife-swapping couples in suburban Bristol.

    More important, nobody should feel they are a second class citizen because of their faith / sexuality or gender.

    Having said all that - I don't see nor have I ever seen in any of my teaching observations anyone promoting any kind of monoculture.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    Really? Wanna know how they wash their babies in Africa? They spray them with breast milk and let the goats lick them clean.
    Quote Originally Posted by trixare4kids View Post
    I'd have MORE respect for Starbucks if they would just own up to their own policy of booting non-paying black customers

  5. #65
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I've yet to see where the school has actually engaged in "sex education?" I've also repeatedly pointed out that the school has been teaching something about which I really think you haven't actually understood the basics of or what the school has actually been engaged with.

    This may help
    .
    A lot of people hear "sex education" and make all kinds of assumptions about what this means.
    Only interested in serious debate.

  6. #66
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    So - school decision or parental choice? Society's needs or parents views?

    First Esther McVey, Conservative candidate for Prime Minister and now Labour MP Roger Godsiff have weighed in against Anderton Park Primary School and the LGBT equality teaching.

    Are these classes “age appropriate?” Should parents have a choice over their kids attending such classes or is preparation for a modern society the most important thing to consider?

    While Esther McVey has seen the materials, Roger Godsiff hasn’t even seen the lessons or read the book in question so I have serious doubts when he simply tells the parents they are right. Nazir Afzal, former CPS prosecutor who helped break the Rotherham and other child abuse cases has stated that he feels the parents are being manipulated.

    So who is right? In my case, I think the school is right and I agree with Afzal. These classes should go ahead as we are preparing these children to be well rounded members of society.

    Esther McVey: Birmingham Mail with cookies

    MP Roger Godsif tells parents they are right

    Nazir Afzal – Parents are being manipulated.
    Open child grooming. Disgusting. The people involved should be dropped in the North Sea.
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  7. #67
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    I really believe progressive Democrats do not understand how some people see providing everyone who is poor whatever the need plus a lot of what the want. It is this: When you say you want ALL kids to get free college - and usually will point to some sad kid's situation plus how another kid is doing great having been helped thru college - I hear you want to steal $30,000 from me to pay for some kid's college who isn't my kid.

    I won't even pay for my own children's college - though could. What we do as parents for those who would be college bound - their choice and likely most or all will pursue more education of some kind after high school - they have to figure how to pay the financial costs.

    If a loan, it is that adult child's loan obligation. Better, to get a full scholarship and an extreme well paying part time job, plus full time in the summer. Or they can join the military and go thru college while in it - then continue for a masters or PhD on the GI bill. It doesn't take that much to qualify for the latter IF the do well in school, though better to join after some college, even if a junior college. For the first one so far, it was a full scholarship to one of the top private science and technology universities in the country, dorm and meals included. She made enough in 2 1/2 months of a part time job to pay for all 9 months of personal expenses, books, vehicle etc.

    No, I think it wrong for the government to steal my money to give it to some kid who screwed around in high school with poor grades - and is only going to college because s/he doesn't want to go out and get a job, nor worked any job while in high school saving the money. As children we provide all necessities. But everything else is obtained by work. Chores when young. Getting a part time job when old enough. We could pay their entire way easily - but want them to evolve into self reliance by age 18 - because now the child is an adult and on her/his own.

  8. #68
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    Re: LGBT primary school row - who's right?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmNat View Post
    Open child grooming. Disgusting. The people involved should be dropped in the North Sea.
    No one here brought that up except you. Are you standing in for TAAC?


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