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Not "The Onion": The UK and Knife Control

RabidAlpaca said:
Look, you can say that banning knives is silly and that the UK never should have banned guns, but you absolutely can not pretend that their gun ban has been a failure.

Intentional Homicide Rate (per capita)
US: 5.35
UK: 1.2 (4.5 times lower than US)

Firearm Related Homicide Rate (per capita)
US: 4.46
UK: 0.06 (74 times lower than US)

You and the writer of this little blog article thought you could pull hilariously incorrect things out of your ass and that no one would call you on it. Please inform yourself and not just repost everything that fits your agenda.
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Actually you CAN say it is a failure if you look at the facts. Prior to Dunblane there was ONE mass shooting in 25+ years. SINCE Dunblane and the passage of the gun ban there has been...ONE mass shooting.

Thats not different than the results of the Australia gun ban...20 mass murders PRIOR to 25 Port Arthur...25 in the 23 years SINCE the gun bans passed following the Port Arthur massacre.

Suicide rates...the UK gun bans had ZERO impact on suicide rates. the Australia gun bans had zero impact on suicide rates.
BTW...the violent crime and murder rates in the UK? They are CLIMBING in areas where they are experiencing the types of inner city diversity the US already has. Remove those poverty riddled communities that BREED violence and guess what happens to our intentional homicide rates.

So you have to talk in terms of actual results.
 
BTW...if you want to see the true illness of the UK following the gun ban, dont look at the proposed knife bans...which is bad enough...but not the worst. Look at the fact that they have now begun jailing their citizens for posting comments on social media or for making statements that someone else might find 'offensive'.

Sick.
 
VanceMack said:
Actually you CAN say it is a failure if you look at the facts. Prior to Dunblane there was ONE mass shooting in 25+ years. SINCE Dunblane and the passage of the gun ban there has been...ONE mass shooting.

Thats not different than the results of the Australia gun ban...20 mass murders PRIOR to 25 Port Arthur...25 in the 23 years SINCE the gun bans passed following the Port Arthur massacre.

Suicide rates...the UK gun bans had ZERO impact on suicide rates. the Australia gun bans had zero impact on suicide rates.
BTW...the violent crime and murder rates in the UK? They are CLIMBING in areas where they are experiencing the types of inner city diversity the US already has. Remove those poverty riddled communities that BREED violence and guess what happens to our intentional homicide rates.

So you have to talk in terms of actual results.
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OK. let's get actual results as a starting point. How many gun massacres have there been in the UK since guns were invented? Are you arguing we should have as many massacres in the UK in history as you have in a year to justify gun control?

I'm actually pro-gun but I don't want the UK to be a crazed Wild West state like you are.

VanceMack said:
BTW...if you want to see the true illness of the UK following the gun ban, dont look at the proposed knife bans...which is bad enough...but not the worst. Look at the fact that they have now begun jailing their citizens for posting comments on social media or for making statements that someone else might find 'offensive'.

Sick.
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Yeah, let's shift the goalposts on a knife thread because there is no knife ban and let's do some more moralising because you want other Western countries to be a wild west of uncivilised people.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
OK. let's get actual results as a starting point. How many gun massacres have there been in the UK since guns were invented? Are you arguing we should have as many massacres in the UK in history as you have in a year to justify gun control?

I'm actually pro-gun but I don't want the UK to be a crazed Wild West state like you are.



Yeah, let's shift the goalposts on a knife thread because there is no knife ban and let's do some more moralising because you want other Western countries to be a wild west of uncivilised people.
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We can play if you like but I have to go on historical precedence. Go back as far as you like but we cant find a comparative analysis until we hae an equal number of years going forward, can we?

And please...no one is shifting the goals. The knife ban is inane. The ban on free speech is a sickness. The tragic reality is that the UK members on this site would get arrested and jailed for much of what they post here if this was seen by their constables back home.
 
VanceMack said:
We can play if you like but I have to go on historical precedence. Go back as far as you like but we cant find a comparative analysis until we hae an equal number of years going forward, can we?

And please...no one is shifting the goals. The knife ban is inane. The ban on free speech is a sickness. The tragic reality is that the UK members on this site would get arrested and jailed for much of what they post here if this was seen by their constables back home.
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The historical precedence game is meaningless then if we follow your rules.

And have you read the knife ban? Tell me exactly what you think has happened or is happening with a ban - don't give me links, just tell me exactly what the ban is and how it works as you understand it.
 
Sweden said:
That does not make any part of the USA "the safest place to live". It is a factoid of your invention, lacking any evidence to back it up.
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Math is not my invention. If you subtract from the annual gun death #'s all things that will never effect you, such as suicide if you aren't suicidal, then the #'s the rates are based on go down. Baltimore is a dangerous leftist controlled city, if you do not go to Baltimore you cannot become a victim there and a part of their crime stats.

If you don't understand how basic math works, then I cannot help you. Anyone who isn't suicidal, gang related, in the game or in such a ****hole as Chicago shouldn't worry about gun violence in America. Better to worry about bad drivers and carcinogens.

Also, I never said called "the USA is the safest place to live" without those qualifiers. Nice try at a strawman though.
 
Peter King said:
Except gun control in many countries work. And knife bans is very appropriate. If you go out on the street to hang out on the neighborhood corner and you are bringing a 15 inch kitchen knife then you deserve to be arrested and prosecuted. There is no earthly reason to be carrying such a knife for a friendly meeting with buddies.
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The ban isn't limited to 15" knives or kids hanging out on street corners.

Anyone who carries a knife will tell you it has endless utility, both in day-to-day and emergency situations. London politicians (possibly the entire UK, soon) don't care. In their zeal to regulate away gang violence, they've thrown the 99.99...% of citizens hindered rather than helped by the ban under the bus.

Worse still, as a society you're admitting you're so infantilized that your citizens can't even be trusted with knives anymore. A teenager buying a chef's knife for his grandmother's birthday can't be trusted to pick it up at the supply store. A woman reordering a bread knife on Amazon can't be trusted to sign for it upon delivery, or, for that matter, to walk with it back to her home after picking it up from the warehouse.
 
Mr Person said:
You do realize that the vast majority of states have some form of "knife control", ie, banning switchblades, carrying knives over a certain size (generally such that they're effectively short swords but without a hilt)...... right?
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One part of me says, "If the bans are limited to knives so specialized that the argument can be made they've never been used for anything other than assailing people, they make some sense, they're not a grave imposition..."

Another part of me says, "People have walked around with blades, even swords, at their hip for self-defense for literally thousands of years. They weren't divested of responsibility by the state, and in the vast majority of cases they handled their responsibility perfectly well. They weren't infants and the lawmakers ruling over them didn't treat them that way, especially on account of others' misconduct."

So... do I support bans on swords and switchblades? I'm going to say 'no'. Even if they make a lick of difference in terms of violence prevention--which I doubt--no. They're not worth it.

Am I going to lose any sleep over a short sword ban? No. In the grand scheme of things, there are far greater issues of state overreach to contend with.
 
COTO said:
The ban isn't limited to 15" knives or kids hanging out on street corners.

Anyone who carries a knife will tell you it has endless utility, both in day-to-day and emergency situations. London politicians (possibly the entire UK, soon) don't care. In their zeal to regulate away gang violence, they've thrown the 99.99...% of citizens hindered rather than helped by the ban under the bus.

Worse still, as a society you're admitting you're so infantilized that your citizens can't even be trusted with knives anymore. A teenager buying a chef's knife for his grandmother's birthday can't be trusted to pick it up at the supply store. A woman reordering a bread knife on Amazon can't be trusted to sign for it upon delivery, or, for that matter, to walk with it back to her home after picking it up from the warehouse.
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You truly do not have a lot of information about the level of knife violence in the UK?

These are machete and knife wielding idiots in a shopping mall in the UK





You don't know the law and still you make comments about that make no sense. And no, selling a knife to someone under 18 is a crime unless it has a folding blade of 3 inches or less. You can also carry a folding blade with a blade of 3 inches or less. That will do very much for most things in life that you need a knife for in public. It is however also illegal to use that legal knife in a threatening way, then you will still get prosecuted for it.

And no, if you are a teenager you are not allowed to buy a knife. And who cares about that. Will it inconvenience some people, yes, but that is the reality of trying to curb knife crimes. And of course you can have a knife with you from a store as long as it is not ready to use I would think. Normally they are (well where I live) in annoying plastic that you cannot use as a weapon or in a box secured in a way that you cannot go and use it as a weapon. Also where is it placed. If you have that knife in the shopping bag in the back of your car then fine, not an offensive weapon. Have it ready to use in the door of your car then it is a weapon.

The UK will do what the UK wants to do and good for them. I have no issue with it.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
The historical precedence game is meaningless then if we follow your rules.

And have you read the knife ban? Tell me exactly what you think has happened or is happening with a ban - don't give me links, just tell me exactly what the ban is and how it works as you understand it.
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The historical precedence in Great Britain is perfectly appropriate using similar timelines. Time prior vs time since...one for one, shooting vs shooting. In fact you would have to go all the way back to 1842...150 to find the next mass shooting incident.

As for the proposed bans...as we have discussed this numerous times here I have read Khans position on stopping people and taking their knives...that No person should ever be allowed to have so much as a pocket knife...which is ****ing insanity-though the law will still allow (for now pocket knives with blades to 3 inches). I know they are proposing deivery bans on kitchen knives with pointed ends. Fixed blade knives are proposed to be banned.

All of which is stupid beyond words. DO you understand what the most common weapon found in prisons are?

1575d5614e8a654a0df58cd6413a85f6.jpg

Guns...knives...speech.....

how does the world feel living it on your knees?
 
Peter King said:
The UK will do what the UK wants to do and good for them. I have no issue with it.
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This statement...I have no problem with. Except a whole **** ton of them end up here trying to tell us how we should live our lives like them...good little subjects.
 
Peter King said:
You truly do not have a lot of information about the level of knife violence in the UK?
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I know all about it. Banning knives isn't the way to fix it.

Peter King said:
That will do very much for most things in life that you need a knife for in public.
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Thanks for the advice, Nana.

Peter King said:
Will it inconvenience some people, yes, but that is the reality of trying to curb knife crimes.
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You're right, Nana. We couldn't handle the responsibility.

Peter King said:
The UK will do what the UK wants to do and good for them. I have no issue with it.
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The UK will circle the drain along with the rest of Western society. Meanwhile, its politicians will desperately patch over the accelerating decay with bans, surveillance, and unsustainable social welfare in a futile bid to forestall the inevitable. Its citizens will tolerate the madness because hey, being hacked to death by a machete is now a thing in London--and heaven forbid the bobbies profile anybody.
 
COTO said:
I know all about it. Banning knives isn't the way to fix it.


Thanks for the advice, Nana.


You're right, Nana. We couldn't handle the responsibility.


The UK will circle the drain along with the rest of Western society. Meanwhile, its politicians will desperately patch over the accelerating decay with bans, surveillance, and unsustainable social welfare in a futile bid to forestall the inevitable. Its citizens will tolerate the madness because hey, being hacked to death by a machete is now a thing in London--and heaven forbid the bobbies profile anybody.
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1. last time I checked I was a man so not OK with being called nana, don't act like a jerk, it will not be very popular or on to a forum based on respectful (to some degree) discussions.

2. you don't get to decide that banning knifes is not going to fix it, I think it will help fix it. Is it a miracle cure that is going to solve this problem at once. But not doing anything would even be a worse thing to do while children are dying.

3. and no, people are moron and are unable to handle the responsibility, that is proven on a daily/hourly/minute by minute basis. A lot of people are irresponsible idiots, that is how it is.

4. and no, last time I watched the news people are not "circling the drain" and politicians are not trying to patch up anything. Not sure what this has to do with social welfare but the inevitable consequence is that people with knives will be more eaisly found and prosecuted when they break the law and personally I think this is a great law and I wish the Brits all the success they deserve with this law.
 
VanceMack said:
The historical precedence in Great Britain is perfectly appropriate using similar timelines. Time prior vs time since...one for one, shooting vs shooting. In fact you would have to go all the way back to 1842...150 to find the next mass shooting incident.

As for the proposed bans...as we have discussed this numerous times here I have read Khans position on stopping people and taking their knives...that No person should ever be allowed to have so much as a pocket knife...which is ****ing insanity-though the law will still allow (for now pocket knives with blades to 3 inches). I know they are proposing deivery bans on kitchen knives with pointed ends. Fixed blade knives are proposed to be banned.

All of which is stupid beyond words. DO you understand what the most common weapon found in prisons are?

View attachment 67256061

Guns...knives...speech.....

how does the world feel living it on your knees?
Click to expand...

I asked a simple question and I didn't get an answer. We can't go further in this unless you respond honestly. I asked "And have you read the knife ban? Tell me exactly what you think has happened or is happening with a ban - don't give me links, just tell me exactly what the ban is and how it works as you understand it."

Give that another go champ.

COTO said:
The ban isn't limited to 15" knives or kids hanging out on street corners.

Anyone who carries a knife will tell you it has endless utility, both in day-to-day and emergency situations. London politicians (possibly the entire UK, soon) don't care. In their zeal to regulate away gang violence, they've thrown the 99.99...% of citizens hindered rather than helped by the ban under the bus.

Worse still, as a society you're admitting you're so infantilized that your citizens can't even be trusted with knives anymore. A teenager buying a chef's knife for his grandmother's birthday can't be trusted to pick it up at the supply store. A woman reordering a bread knife on Amazon can't be trusted to sign for it upon delivery, or, for that matter, to walk with it back to her home after picking it up from the warehouse.
Click to expand...

This is the closest I've read on the thread to anyone who thinks there is a knife ban actually saying what they think is happening - yet it's still all based on straw men and fake news. I inspected a cooking class 5 weeks ago, all the 15-16 yr old kids turned up to class with their chef's knives without anyone telling them "knives are banned and you can't walk down the street with that..."

You ever seen how big all the different chef's knives are?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I asked a simple question and I didn't get an answer. We can't go further in this unless you respond honestly. I asked "And have you read the knife ban? Tell me exactly what you think has happened or is happening with a ban - don't give me links, just tell me exactly what the ban is and how it works as you understand it."

Give that another go champ.



This is the closest I've read on the thread to anyone who thinks there is a knife ban actually saying what they think is happening - yet it's still all based on straw men and fake news. I inspected a cooking class 5 weeks ago, all the 15-16 yr old kids turned up to class with their chef's knives without anyone telling them "knives are banned and you can't walk down the street with that..."

You ever seen how big all the different chef's knives are?
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I'll let you struggle along with your own reading comprehension failures. And at the same time recognize your failure regarding both the historical precedence argument and the willing collapse of rights of free speech by a collection of kneeling poodles.
 
VanceMack said:
We can play if you like but I have to go on historical precedence. Go back as far as you like but we cant find a comparative analysis until we hae an equal number of years going forward, can we?

And please...no one is shifting the goals. The knife ban is inane. The ban on free speech is a sickness. The tragic reality is that the UK members on this site would get arrested and jailed for much of what they post here if this was seen by their constables back home.
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No they wouldn't.
 
Knife ban or no knife ban, all the knife attacks going on in the UK are disgusting and sickening.

I join other members (and guests) in expressing my deepest sympathy to the British people for what is happening in their country.

Previously, some Brits emigrated to avoid high taxation.

If some Brits are thinking about emigrating because of social reasons, hopefully they will consider coming to the United States.
 
TheParser said:
Knife ban or no knife ban, all the knife attacks going on in the UK are disgusting and sickening.

I join other members (and guests) in expressing my deepest sympathy to the British people for what is happening in their country.

Previously, some Brits emigrated to avoid high taxation.

If some Brits are thinking about emigrating because of social reasons, hopefully they will consider coming to the United States.
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280 homicides by knife in the UK; 13,000 homicides by gun in the US. Why would I want to go to the US?? Not to mention lack of social healthcare and poor employee rights.
 
TheParser said:
Knife ban or no knife ban, all the knife attacks going on in the UK are disgusting and sickening.

I join other members (and guests) in expressing my deepest sympathy to the British people for what is happening in their country.

Previously, some Brits emigrated to avoid high taxation.

If some Brits are thinking about emigrating because of social reasons, hopefully they will consider coming to the United States.
Click to expand...

But why would they flee from a country they feel has too few rules about controlling knives (and thus a feeling of lack of being safe) to a country that has few rules about any weapons. Not that this is an insult as I respect (even if I don't always agree) that this is the way US citizens want to live. Fine, their country not an issue (except when they want to say that my country is not free and we have to adopt US gun rules because that is the only way a country can be free, then the fun is over and I will vehemently disagree with having free gun laws in the Netherlands :cool:).

But I think if they have qualms about knife crime/lack of weapon control/violence, they would be much more likely to emigrate to a country like Australia, Ireland or New Zealand. Or simply move to mainland Europe were there is no current epidemic of youths running amok with machete's and zombie knives.

If for no other reason that most countries in Europe have about the same system of providing affordable healthcare. And I think Australia, Ireland and New Zealand have similar affordable healthcare options. When coming from and NHS system to no system would be a shock to a lot of English people's system.

The real problem in the UK and for example in the US and some other first world/second world countries are gangs. Gangs are really the root of all evil under youth violence in the UK. Gangs are armed, they are omnipresent and it makes even those not in gangs have to feel they need to have a knife on them to feel safe. In the US it is the same thing but then with guns rather than knives.

Gangs are a source of great problems in any country that has them. Not only because it increases feelings of not being safe in your own neighborhood (crime, loitering, littering, nuisance) but the main thing is that it leads to turf wars and youths not involved in a gang to feel unsafe without a weapon or in the worst scenario they join a gang to feel safer as there is safety in numbers. The same goes for a lot of biker gangs who are 1%/outlaw biker gangs. Turf wars and just like a lot of youth gangs they start dealing in more serious and more serious crimes. Drugs, prostitution, forced prostitution, gambling, robberies, shootings, and many many more crimes will become gang territory the older and the bigger the gangs become.

You cannot bring an end to knife violence in the UK without fighting the gangs at the same time. The big joy for the UK police is their CCTV system. It makes tracking these thugs through city centers much easier as is catching them committing crimes in areas that have CCTV. Because as they are criminals, a lot of them are stupid and still commit knife crimes/beatings/robberies/etc. etc. under the watchful eye of the CCTV operators.

The problem is IMO the relatively high poverty and lack of belonging under many ethnic teens in the UK. That is why so many problem teens from these groups are pulled towards gang life. They feel second class it seems and this gang life is giving them both money and status, things teens gravitate towards, in large cities especially minority kids. Minority kids who if they were living in a village would almost never go into gang but in the anonymity of large cities they get pulled into gangs and the violence that comes with those gangs.
 
Aristaeus said:
No they wouldn't.
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There are people in the UK that have been arrested for making jokes that others might have found insulting. An individual (one that is BTW married to a Muslim and who has his Muslim mother in law living with him under his roof) was arrested and jailed when, after a terrorist attack in the UK made the public comment that people that came to England should put England first over their old traditions and ways.

And if you dont know that, you should educate yourself before you comment on things.

So dont pretend there isnt plenty said on this site tht others might not find 'offensive'.
 
In the UK another teen has been stabbed to death on the street, this time a 15 year old boy. The fight against knife crime needs to continue as this was the 29th person stabbed to death in London since the beginning of the year.
 
Peter King said:
But why would they flee from a country they feel has too few rules about controlling knives (and thus a feeling of lack of being safe) to a country that has few rules about any weapons. Not that this is an insult as I respect (even if I don't always agree) that this is the way US citizens want to live. Fine, their country not an issue (except when they want to say that my country is not free and we have to adopt US gun rules because that is the only way a country can be free, then the fun is over and I will vehemently disagree with having free gun laws in the Netherlands :cool:).

But I think if they have qualms about knife crime/lack of weapon control/violence, they would be much more likely to emigrate to a country like Australia, Ireland or New Zealand. Or simply move to mainland Europe were there is no current epidemic of youths running amok with machete's and zombie knives.

If for no other reason that most countries in Europe have about the same system of providing affordable healthcare. And I think Australia, Ireland and New Zealand have similar affordable healthcare options. When coming from and NHS system to no system would be a shock to a lot of English people's system.

The real problem in the UK and for example in the US and some other first world/second world countries are gangs. Gangs are really the root of all evil under youth violence in the UK. Gangs are armed, they are omnipresent and it makes even those not in gangs have to feel they need to have a knife on them to feel safe. In the US it is the same thing but then with guns rather than knives.

Gangs are a source of great problems in any country that has them. Not only because it increases feelings of not being safe in your own neighborhood (crime, loitering, littering, nuisance) but the main thing is that it leads to turf wars and youths not involved in a gang to feel unsafe without a weapon or in the worst scenario they join a gang to feel safer as there is safety in numbers. The same goes for a lot of biker gangs who are 1%/outlaw biker gangs. Turf wars and just like a lot of youth gangs they start dealing in more serious and more serious crimes. Drugs, prostitution, forced prostitution, gambling, robberies, shootings, and many many more crimes will become gang territory the older and the bigger the gangs become.

You cannot bring an end to knife violence in the UK without fighting the gangs at the same time. The big joy for the UK police is their CCTV system. It makes tracking these thugs through city centers much easier as is catching them committing crimes in areas that have CCTV. Because as they are criminals, a lot of them are stupid and still commit knife crimes/beatings/robberies/etc. etc. under the watchful eye of the CCTV operators.

The problem is IMO the relatively high poverty and lack of belonging under many ethnic teens in the UK. That is why so many problem teens from these groups are pulled towards gang life. They feel second class it seems and this gang life is giving them both money and status, things teens gravitate towards, in large cities especially minority kids. Minority kids who if they were living in a village would almost never go into gang but in the anonymity of large cities they get pulled into gangs and the violence that comes with those gangs.
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Thank you, Mr. King, for your very informative comments.

1. I feel soooooooooo sorry for the good people in the United Kingdom. What has happened to their country is monstrous.

2. I hope that the British people will vote for politicians who will take vigorous action against those very, very, very bad violent individuals.


3. Is the horrific violence that is gulfing London and other cities at least one of the reasons why a plurality voted for Brexit? Hopefully, the Honorable Theresa May will retire so that a more forceful pol can lead the suffering British people.



Best wishes
 
TheParser said:
Thank you, Mr. King, for your very informative comments.

1. I feel soooooooooo sorry for the good people in the United Kingdom. What has happened to their country is monstrous.

2. I hope that the British people will vote for politicians who will take vigorous action against those very, very, very bad violent individuals.


3. Is the horrific violence that is gulfing London and other cities at least one of the reasons why a plurality voted for Brexit? Hopefully, the Honorable Theresa May will retire so that a more forceful pol can lead the suffering British people.



Best wishes
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Well, the Brexit vote has little to do with this, most big economic centers of the UK voted against Brexit.

May has been really damaged due to Brexit and a new leader might help but you cannot create something of nothing and that is what the Brexit deal is. The British politicians want all the benefits really and none of the costs of EU partnership and that just cannot work. To get something you need to pay the price.
 
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