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'Myths' about US farming: UK-US trade deal

Then why the chemical baths?

Chickens are naturally not the cleanest of animals. They'll crap on each other, peck at each other which can cause open sores which if not caught can cause infections (and with 130k chickens its not hard to miss a few). In fact chickens are actually very blood thirsty. Something that not many people know about. And no, the chickens were not kept in cages. They were kept in very large barns and during the summer we'd let them outside once they grew big enough to not have to worry about them getting lost. And no, growth hormones were not allowed in the feed. The chickens were bred to be naturally large. Additionally during processing its impossible to not get certain bodily fluids on the parts of the chicken that most people eat. Bodily fluids that are not exactly fit for human consumption.

One more thing about the chlorine baths...in small amounts it does not harm a human in the slightest. (why do you think chlorine is aloud to be used in things like swimming pools?) And if the chicken is prepared properly before cooking (such as washing the meat prior to cooking as should be done with any poultry product regardless if its home grown or via large companies like I worked on) the chlorine is virtually eliminated.
 
Chickens are naturally not the cleanest of animals. They'll crap on each other, peck at each other which can cause open sores which if not caught can cause infections (and with 130k chickens its not hard to miss a few). In fact chickens are actually very blood thirsty. Something that not many people know about. And no, the chickens were not kept in cages. They were kept in very large barns and during the summer we'd let them outside once they grew big enough to not have to worry about them getting lost. And no, growth hormones were not allowed in the feed. The chickens were bred to be naturally large. Additionally during processing its impossible to not get certain bodily fluids on the parts of the chicken that most people eat. Bodily fluids that are not exactly fit for human consumption.

One more thing about the chlorine baths...in small amounts it does not harm a human in the slightest. (why do you think chlorine is aloud to be used in things like swimming pools?) And if the chicken is prepared properly before cooking (such as washing the meat prior to cooking as should be done with any poultry product regardless if its home grown or via large companies like I worked on) the chlorine is virtually eliminated.

European chickens dont need chlorine baths to make them safe to eat. Despite that, the official American CDC (Center for Disease Control) website says they *expect* 1.2 million illnesses, 23,000 hospitalizations, and 450 deaths from Salmonella *alone*, almost all from food, *every year* in the USA. Europe had 1766 hospitalisations and 10 deaths in 2016 from salmonella. We don't irrigate our Romaine salad crops with water contaminated by cattle slurry either.
Chlorine doesnt kill all the salmonella bacteria, in fact some will form a cyst to protect themself, only to emerge later, and are much more difficult to detect in supposedly "cleaned" food..
 
including those chickens from Thailand that Brits don't chirp a peep in protest over.

Farmed Thai chickens live in better conditions than American or British.

YOU trusting Americans is not the issue, that is up to the consumer.

It’s not about trusting “Americans” – it’s about the animal’s welfare and whether the meat quality is so low that it needs chlorine washing to make it edible



And if "trust" were the sole issue, exactly why should anyone trust British beef after their "trustworthy" farming practices and inspection system produced MAD COW disease. Seems to me that is a hell of a lot more relevant to eating safe foodstuffs than your fretting over the popularity of gun ownership and an affection for liberty among a minority of Americans.

Give me chlorine washed chickens or give me death!


No, its not an issue. Everything you think about American poultry production is a product of your anti-American imagination. You haven't a clue how, for example, Tyson (one of the largest in America) manages, maintains, inspects, or sanitizes its facilities. Your completely ignorant of the results of US government testing for harmful bacteria in those facilities. Nor do you have a clue as to the chances of someone actually getting seriously ill from chicken tainted before the consumer purchased it.

I’ve already stated several times that washing a product in bleach (such as salad) is acceptable. What I have repeatedly expressed concern about is that chlorine bleaching a meat allows lower standard meat to be used because the bleach will render it less inedible than if it were not used.




What you do have is a prejudice and the vivid imagination to embellish it.

Yeah, I know I’d need to prize your bleached tasteless meat from your cold, dead hands.




You can always buy air chilled chicken in America, and I sometimes do when I want the most intensely flavored chicken for a recipe, and when I am in the mood to pay 50 to 75 percent more.

And you don’t realise why one meat is better than the other. The irony.



And, by the way, there is one or more full-time USDA inspectors at the processing point, examining for fecal matter or other problems, as well as taking tests for bacterial contamination

If I bleach a toilet after use, it will always be cleaner than if I don’t. Doesn’t make me want to eat out off a toilet bowl.
 
It’s not about trusting “Americans” – it’s about the animal’s welfare and whether the meat quality is so low that it needs chlorine washing to make it edible.

If EU chickens are the absolute best and the safest, why are you leaving the EU? Anyway, after Brexit you can import your chickens from Saudi Arabia for all I care.
 
Farmed Thai chickens live in better conditions than American or British.

It’s not about trusting “Americans” – it’s about the animal’s welfare and whether the meat quality is so low that it needs chlorine washing to make it edible



Give me chlorine washed chickens or give me death!


I’ve already stated several times that washing a product in bleach (such as salad) is acceptable. What I have repeatedly expressed concern about is that chlorine bleaching a meat allows lower standard meat to be used because the bleach will render it less inedible than if it were not used.





Yeah, I know I’d need to prize your bleached tasteless meat from your cold, dead hands.




And you don’t realise why one meat is better than the other. The irony.



If I bleach a toilet after use, it will always be cleaner than if I don’t. Doesn’t make me want to eat out off a toilet bowl.

I'm not sure its worthwhile to respond to a list of stand-alone petulant snarks, but its a slow and rainy morning so I will.

If, contrary to your prior statement, you not carping about untrustworthy Americans then I look forward to hearing no more of your tripe about "no one" trusting gun and freedom loving Americans. Right?

But if the issue is the animal's welfare and the quality of the meat that requires chlorine washing to make it edible THEN why, in spite of numerous opportunities in this thread, have you failed to demonstrate that the American broiler chicken welfare is unacceptable, or that chickens would be inedible without a dip in slightly chlorinated water?

As has been explained to you, again:

- Chickens are "cold water immersion chilled" because it decreases production time and is less expensive than air chilling and as a side benefit brings the temperature down more quickly, and reduces the chance of spoilage.

- Added to the water is an anti-microbial, hypochlorous. The amount is tiny, 3 parts per MILLION. It does not "bleach" the meat, it is untastable, and it is totally safe to consume. However, it does inhibit future growth of bacteria and pathogens.

- The USDA recommends the practice.

- Numerous industry scientific studies also support its use as the most effective as the most effective means to control the level of microbiological contamination of poultry meat and poultry meat products. (e.g. University of Maryland)

- After treatment and rinsing, FSIS monitor the poultry to ensure that ZERO chlorine is present after treatment. (MSU)

- The same chicken, only air-chilled, is also available from many of the same suppliers - the difference being that for those with the most discerning palates, air chilling tends to do better in preserving flavor in the time between slaughter and supermarket. It is ALSO 50-75 percent more expensive.

YOU have given ZERO proof that otherwise inedible meat is being made edible through "bleaching". What you have demonstrated is how modern sanitary practices for the safe production of food products is viewed by foodie luddites as PROOF that sanitary practices are a bad thing - that the Thailand chicken shipped to England is safe BECAUSE it was likely raised and slaughtered with minimal concern for microbes, parasites, or non-fatal viruses.

This is not news: Luddites will always be with us. Fluoridation, Pasteurization, Vaccination, Refrigeration... you name it, there is a kook against it. Alarmism and lurid imaginary fears are their stock and trade (often with conspiracy and xenophobic theory attached).

As you have amply demonstrated in this thread.
 
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The US has never had Avian Flu outbreaks that required the destruction of millions of chickens, nor large epidemics of Mad Cow disease.

Just sayin'.
 
The US has never had Avian Flu outbreaks that required the destruction of millions of chickens, nor large epidemics of Mad Cow disease.

Just sayin'.

No, you are not saying anything of logical value, the reason millions of birds were destroyed was because of preventative measures, not because of outbreaks of bird flu. If you are a poultry farm in the Netherlands and your farm is within about 1 kilometre from a farm that had bird flu, all your birds would be destroyed as a preventative measure. If your farm has 1 million birds and the affected farm only a 100, all your birds will be destroyed.

Add to that, during outbreaks of bird flu, usually within an even bigger area, up to 7 miles or so there can be a transport restriction which forbids the transport of any birds, eggs and used flooring meant for destruction at a waste disposal plant. And if that happens for several weeks, and you have 100,000 chicken ready for the slaughter, which has to be done before a certain number of weeks and you cannot transport them, then destruction is usually the next step. Or if you have fertilized eggs for other farmers to use, and you don't have the facility to feed and house all those chickens (because during the bird flu epidemic you have to house them indoors at all time), you will also have to destroy the eggs or the chicks.

Not something anybody wants to do but to prevent the spread of bird flu thousands or millions of birds will be killed as a prevention measure. And that is because many farms lie close together due to physical restrictions (due to multiple farms existing in a small area where mass bird farms are legally allowed) of several farms close together.

It says nothing about the cleanliness or anything like that.
 
If EU chickens are the absolute best and the safest, why are you leaving the EU? Anyway, after Brexit you can import your chickens from Saudi Arabia for all I care.

I never said they were the best...

https://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/349258-myths-us-farming-uk-us-trade-deal-2.html#post1069766173

I also stated in that post that most Americans probably eat chicken that is produced in other ways and the condescending guy who cares about his gun-toting chickens even admitted that chickens that cost more (and are not chlorine washed) actually taste better. He buys them in America but he seems to spend time eating lower quality, tasteless chicken and is insisting that they are foisted on the UK too.

I'm not sure its worthwhile to respond to a list of stand-alone petulant snarks ~ then I look forward to hearing no more of your tripe ~

Point taken. Goodbye, I'll respond to posters who can discuss intelligently.
 
European chickens dont need chlorine baths to make them safe to eat. Despite that, the official American CDC (Center for Disease Control) website says they *expect* 1.2 million illnesses, 23,000 hospitalizations, and 450 deaths from Salmonella *alone*, almost all from food, *every year* in the USA. Europe had 1766 hospitalisations and 10 deaths in 2016 from salmonella. We don't irrigate our Romaine salad crops with water contaminated by cattle slurry either.
Chlorine doesnt kill all the salmonella bacteria, in fact some will form a cyst to protect themself, only to emerge later, and are much more difficult to detect in supposedly "cleaned" food..

If there is an archetype of a post getting it wrong, you just provided it.

First, the CDC center website is quoting from a report that I linked to earlier. THAT report contains two kinds of figures for food poisoning, CONFIRMED and the amount multiplied by guess-timates of unreported cases. The link to the European report included CONFIRMED and not only confirmed but also HOSPITALIZED.

Either intentionally or obtusely, you are comparing the broadest possible number in US figures (estimated/predicted) to the least number possible in European figures (Hospitalized). THAT is so disingenuous as to be laughable - shame on you.

If you compare the COMPARABLE data, laboratory confirmed in the US to that in Europe, US rates are largely lower (12.7 per 100,000 vs 15 to 24 per 100,000 in major countries of Europe).

In the future, if you wish to be taken seriously, please make an effort to compare "apples to apples"; be it confirmed cases or hospitalization rates.


Second, thanks providing the canard that "Chlorine doesn't kill all the salmonella bacteria". Sanitization measures never kill "all" of any microbe, which is beside the point. What it does do is sanitize equipment and extend shelf life:

https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/U-of-Md-Chlorine-Study.pdf

Food Chlorine Annotation 2019-03-05 121043.jpg

Food Study Annotation 2019-03-05 121310.jpg
 
I never said they were the best...

https://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/349258-myths-us-farming-uk-us-trade-deal-2.html#post1069766173

I also stated in that post that most Americans probably eat chicken that is produced in other ways and the condescending guy who cares about his gun-toting chickens even admitted that chickens that cost more (and are not chlorine washed) actually taste better. He buys them in America but he seems to spend time eating lower quality, tasteless chicken and is insisting that they are foisted on the UK too.

Point taken. Goodbye, I'll respond to posters who can discuss intelligently.

Speaking of intelligent and non-condescending responses, aside from your swipe about gun-toting chickens, what is it about being disingenuous that appeals to you?

I "admitted" nothing about "non-chlorine washed" chicken tasting better. I said (please pay attention) that COLD WATER IMMERSION chilling (regardless of chlorination) is less effective than AIR CHILLED methods in keeping chicken flavorful for those with a discriminating palate. COLD WATER vs. Air Chilled makes the difference NOT several ppm of chorine.

If you can't respond intelligently and honestly, then perhaps its best you not respond at all - on that we can agree.
 
I buy from a local butcher but is this really the kind of benefit that faces UK meat buyers in the future as we leave the EU? Is there anyone here (Europe or USA) that looks forward to a chicken that's been washed in chlorine solution?
(n.b. - Vegetables and salad washed in Chlorine is something I don't have a problem with - it's not the chlorine that bothers me, it's the state of the chicken that requires a chlorine wash)

You poor soul.

You better stop eating cabbage, cauliflower, Brussel Sprouts, Radishes, Broccoli and a few other veggies, because they have a natural high content of chlorine.

UK farmer and stores don't wash their poultry before selling?

Do you really want to eat a pig that came from a slop pen from some UK farmer without washing?
 
~ (n.b. - Vegetables and salad washed in Chlorine is something I don't have a problem with - it's not the chlorine that bothers me, it's the state of the chicken that requires a chlorine wash)

You poor soul.

You better stop eating cabbage, cauliflower, Brussel Sprouts, Radishes, Broccoli and a few other veggies, because they have a natural high content of chlorine.

Please see the OP, I responded to that part.

UK farmer and stores don't wash their poultry before selling?

Do you really want to eat a pig that came from a slop pen from some UK farmer without washing?

Poultry is washed with water or air here. You will find many US farms do the same.

As for pigs.. The Pig Carcase Grading Scheme: guidance - GOV.UK
 
No, you are not saying anything of logical value, the reason millions of birds were destroyed was because of preventative measures....

I see. You can destroy millions of birds for "preventive measures" but a quick spray of highly diluted (3 ppm) chlorine is not a "preventive measure".

Your logic escapes me.
 
I see. You can destroy millions of birds for "preventive measures" but a quick spray of highly diluted (3 ppm) chlorine is not a "preventive measure".

Your logic escapes me.

Huh? What are you talking about? I have never talking about chlorine chickens, you seem to be mistaking me with other people. I have only been talking about the use of antibiotics and growth hormones. I live in a chicken country, our chicken comes from here. If you ever eat mandarin pieces from a can everybody has been using toilet cleaner because that is how they remove the skin from the mandarin and after that the mandarins are exposed to hydrochloric acid, Which neutralizes the toilet cleaner.

But I do not see the need for chlorinated baths, it must have some reason but as I have not studied that reason I am not going to make it a humongous issue.
 
Huh? What are you talking about? I have never talking about chlorine chickens, you seem to be mistaking me with other people. I have only been talking about the use of antibiotics and growth hormones. I live in a chicken country, our chicken comes from here. If you ever eat mandarin pieces from a can everybody has been using toilet cleaner because that is how they remove the skin from the mandarin and after that the mandarins are exposed to hydrochloric acid, Which neutralizes the toilet cleaner.

But I do not see the need for chlorinated baths, it must have some reason but as I have not studied that reason I am not going to make it a humongous issue.

Why is there "a need" for pasteurized milk, vaccines, or clean pens? Presumably because there is some net benefit in preserving shelf life, maintaining the quality of the product, and reducing spoilage.

There is not "a need", there is "a want" to make production more efficient and cost-effective; a cold water bath of the carcass , with very diluted chlorine, is not to disinfect the chicken (which is freshly killed) but as a preventative to future contamination of equipment (the cleaning water itself will carry higher loads of organics), and to extend shelf life.

This process is not new, unique, or unusual - it has been standard operating procedure in North America since at least the 1950s. Like Pasteurization, before the green purists ideology romanticized "natural" methods of medicine and agriculture, it was considered a scientific advancement.

I'm not saying, by the way, that this concern for sanitation and "science" is not also a fetish that is overdone - I strongly suspect MANY government regulations and requirements are useless and counter-productive to maximizing the quality of a product. Raw milk, for example, if properly handled and stored is not a substantial danger to the public - yet in North America the government(s) won't ALLOW ANY raw milk products to be sold - denying us some great cheeses we might otherwise have. Similarly, government has insisted on higher than necessary temperatures for the precooking of sausages, and in the past issued absurdly high temperature guidelines for the cooking of pork.

None the less, an excess of caution has been the dominate ideology of government food regulation.
 

Yeah and I can post similar stories from the US. The problem with doing so is most Americans rubbish whatever link because it does not fit their politics. We have welfare charities here which are not seen as political but show an American an American welfare society report and you get "oh, they're left wing" or "oh, they're right wing."

Pointless exercise.
 
I don´t eat Chicken anyway although I like the taste - I´m a farmer and I know how they are grown - on both sides of the big water...

But to topic:

1.) a big majority of Europeans including me don´t want to eat chlorine chicken.
2.) reaktion of a lot of Americans: we decided that does no harm to you so you have to eat it. Otherwise you are no fair trading partner.

is that your big freedom there'?
 
You poor soul.

You better stop eating cabbage, cauliflower, Brussel Sprouts, Radishes, Broccoli and a few other veggies, because they have a natural high content of chlorine.

UK farmer and stores don't wash their poultry before selling?

Do you really want to eat a pig that came from a slop pen from some UK farmer without washing?

Poor Woody has been blundering again! "We have the lowest level of food poisoning in the United States," he claimed on the "Today" radio programme, without any challenge from John Humphrys, the interviewer. In fact around 14.7% of Americans suffer from a food-borne illness each year compared to just 1.5% of Brits.
 
Poor Woody has been blundering again! "We have the lowest level of food poisoning in the United States," he claimed on the "Today" radio programme, without any challenge from John Humphrys, the interviewer. In fact around 14.7% of Americans suffer from a food-borne illness each year compared to just 1.5% of Brits.

Food borne

Could be anything from past date foods, poultry, bad handling to dirty hands at a restaurant.

It could also be private citizens eating bad shell food, game, and past date preserves. Some things we do a lot more of than the UK does.

Link me to a direct cause of each poisoning case and we have a conversation.
 
I don´t eat Chicken anyway although I like the taste - I´m a farmer and I know how they are grown - on both sides of the big water...

But to topic:

1.) a big majority of Europeans including me don´t want to eat chlorine chicken.
2.) reaktion of a lot of Americans: we decided that does no harm to you so you have to eat it. Otherwise you are no fair trading partner.

is that your big freedom there'?

Nah, you forgot the chickens have to be gun-totin rootin-tootin chicken nuggets...
 
I don´t eat Chicken anyway although I like the taste - I´m a farmer and I know how they are grown - on both sides of the big water...

But to topic:

1.) a big majority of Europeans including me don´t want to eat chlorine chicken.
2.) reaktion of a lot of Americans: we decided that does no harm to you so you have to eat it. Otherwise you are no fair trading partner.

is that your big freedom there'?

In the past I would have agreed with you. Most chicken in the supermarket was what the Dutch called "plofkip", "eplosive chicken". Not that they really exploded but their weight exploded in the few weeks they were allowed to live, some were so heavy they could not walk or stand properly. All supermarket chicken sold in the Netherlands now no longer is from this explosive chicken breed. A new sturdier and slower growing chicken was "invented", no longer is it practice for meat chickens to be fed huge amounts of food in 30 or 40 days before being sent to the slaughter. Some of those chickens died of heart failure or as said could not even stand so weak was the chicken. They also were held in very cramped conditions and never saw sunlight. Chickens now sold in the supermarket (not talking about producers who use chicken in their products) have to be of the sturdier race, there can only be 11 chickens per square metre (compared to 18 to 22 in the past) and they have to have access to a sheltered open space where they can enjoy sunlight. Also the place where they are slaughtered can no longer be more than 3 hours driving from the farm. In the past chickens sometimes travelled 24 hours before being delivered to the slaughter house.

The only place I am weary about are companies who do not sell chickens but use chickens as ingredients in their products, there is no certainty these chickens are not of the "explosive chicken variety".

The change in the Netherlands has been both producer as consumer driven. Some farmers/feed producers were not happy with how things were being done and the animal rights groups in the Netherlands had the same views. The problem was convincing the supermarkets and the public, some of whom were not willing to change or thought that the new chickens price would be an issue. But after several years the market has changed itself and now no supermarket sells the "bad" chicken kind any more and I can only applaud that it did not take government action to create change on that front.
 
thats good news (okay I lerned farming 1988 - 1990 ;o)

When I finally manage to work less (civil engeneer 11h day) I will have my own Chicken ;o)

btw I learned from dutch friends how to cook one on the fire - with a beer can in the ass - very tasty ;oD
 


There are some interesting claims in the video: Salmonella deaths in 2018 USA =450 , UK 1.

[FONT=&quot]CDC estimates[/FONT] Salmonella causes about 1.2 million illnesses, 23,000 hospitalizations, and 450 deaths in the United States every year. Food is the source for about 1 million of these illnesses.

Personally, I can't find the specific evidence related to chicken yet.
 
I am happy not allowing US meat into the EU as US animals are treated with way more antibiotics than EU animals get. Also the US uses growth hormones and I would rather have meat with no growth hormones in it at all.

Where's the evidence that animals being pumped full of hormones is bad for human consumption?
 
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