British teen who fled to join ISIS wants to return to the UK.

Evilroddy said:

~ To say the decisions of a fifteen-year old girl means that a 19 year old woman must be left to ~

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That 19 year old holds the same views she did when she left for ISIS and remains unrepentant. As for her baby coming back to the UK - Begum's own parents were the ones who helped radicalise her, taking her to rallies where murderers and ISIS recruiters were regularly present. She made her bed and continues to lie in it.

Higgins86 said:

Hopefully she's stuck in Syria forever.

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I hope so, too.


But the Brits will let her return.

For some reason, the Brits are even bigger bleeding hearts than our own liberals.

take them back lock them up if possible monitor them for life i get not wanting them back but letting them run around in other countries dosent seem fair to the rest of the world

Trump tells Europe to take back ISIS fighters, warns they could be released

TheParser said:

I hope so, too.


But the Brits will let her return.

For some reason, the Brits are even bigger bleeding hearts than our own liberals.

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Seems like your president also wants them to be allowed back.

Higgins86 said:

Seems like your president also wants them to be allowed back.

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There were very few ISIS people from the US in Syria. Only about 10 (8 males 2 females) captured alive that I know of. None in this final batch.

All were escorted home by the FBI and charged with supporting the terrorist group known as ISIS.

Probably far more Americans saddled up with the Syrian Kurds (YPG/YPJ).

Higgins86 said:

Seems like your president also wants them to be allowed back.

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Hi!

Probably he did not want them back, but the law probably gave him no choice. Darn it!

If I had my druthers, they would be forced to stay in Syria.

It would be the perfect punishment.


They do not deserve to live in this country ever again.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Like I said, please leave, we won't miss you. I promise.
If you are so sure that the Right wing can do a better job, all you have to do is get the numbers to turn it back to Republican control.

Apparently believing everything bad is the fault of the Democrats isn't serving you very well, and you'd think you'd learn from that, but the majority here in Cali figured out a long time ago that this is a problem for Republicans.
That's why your folks have become an endangered species here.
You don't have solutions, only lies, historical revisionism and projection. No one's buying it anymore.
California will continue to try to deal with its problems and we'll do it without your whining and false virtue signaling.

My avatar has nothing to do with taxpayers. The little mouse is a right wing partisan hack and a liar.

Click to expand...

No, I'm going to stay here to remind you that there are other people who don't think like you do. You have square miles of slums and areas people don't go to unless they are looking for trouble. You are living the dream, all right. You have 50,000 homeless. Your city management goes out and picks out the bodies every morning like in India. You average 49% unsolved murders a year out of a total of around 1800 murders a year. Hypodermic needles are as common as cigarette butts. Admit it. Your city which leads the state is out of control.

I only seem crazy to you because I'm the sane one and you are a creature of the denial that creates the image of a healthy and well run California. You must be connected in some way to Hollywood, because you have created an alternate reality for yourself, and think everyone else is a circus freak because they just don't understand how right you really are. Mr. "Wisdom from on High" you is.

Well, Mr. Civic duty, did you know that at Marathon Street and Western Avenue they are banning right turns to make it more difficult for hookers? Jesus Christ. Do you realizes how weird this sounds to "normals" like me? Your city does that to avoid dealing with the problem. Just like homelessness, joblessness, and crime.

"No one is buying it anymore". Exactly who do you think you are, Generalissimo? There are lots of people who don't ignore the 30% unfunded public pensions that are eventually going to be picked up by taxpayers. That's about 200 billion that taxpayers are going to have to kick in. When is the last time a business moved into California? The biggest industry is tech and what does tech do? It designs, invents, and markets gadgets manufactured in China rather than here in California. Why? People want too much to work. They don't want to eat dirt for breakfast. And speaking of business, agriculture is the states second largest industry, and you can't even get citizens to work in it. You rely on below market wages of immigrants to put food on your table, and pay 3.8 million people welfare to eat it. Your economy is balanced on the backs of the poor.

Enough of your holier than thou. I get my preaching in church.

And remember me at least once every hour you spend stuck in traffic, I'm still here... eating at you, and defying your logic while I'm sitting in my sun room watching raindrops on my pool, enjoying my retirement laughing at you because you never learned that "You can't change the world, and you can't change other people, they can only change themselves".

So like I said, don't stroke out worrying about me. Maybe they'll name a cocktail after you and you'll be famous.

Infinite Chaos said:

That 19 year old holds the same views she did when she left for ISIS and remains unrepentant. As for her baby coming back to the UK - Begum's own parents were the ones who helped radicalise her, taking her to rallies where murderers and ISIS recruiters were regularly present. She made her bed and continues to lie in it.

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Infinite Chaos:

So the UK can now punish citizens for their thoughts and beliefs as criminal acts? That is a chilling development in a state which claims to be an open and free society which protects individual rights and freedoms. What harm did Shamima Begum do to Britain? What criminal act did she take against the UK and the West? If wishing to change or remove oneself from the UK's present political system is an intolerable thought-crime, then what does that make about half the Scottish electorate who voted to leave the UK and likely to break up the UK? They're thinking it again in line with Brexit. What does such a policy make Brexiteers whose votes look more and more like they're going to do real, extensive and permanent harm to both the UK and Europe, by triggering a hard Brexit? Can yes voters be purged from the society and the land of their birth for wishing ill towards their homeland?

Can we imprison people or exile/purge them for not agreeing with our world view? If so should the UK exile Shamima's parents, her extended family, her like-minded friends, and anyone in the UK who refuses to do homage and swear fealty to the kingdom?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Watching the interview with her on Sky news and the arrogance from her is astounding

Evilroddy said:

Infinite Chaos:

So the UK can now punish citizens for their thoughts and beliefs as criminal acts? That is a chilling development in a state which claims to be an open and free society which protects individual rights and freedoms. What harm did Shamima Begum do to Britain? What criminal act did she take against the UK and the West? If wishing to change or remove oneself from the UK's present political system is an intolerable thought-crime, then what does that make about half the Scottish electorate who voted to leave the UK and likely to break up the UK? They're thinking it again in line with Brexit. What does such a policy make Brexiteers whose votes look more and more like they're going to do real, extensive and permanent harm to both the UK and Europe, by triggering a hard Brexit? Can yes voters be purged from the society and the land of their birth for wishing ill towards their homeland?

Can we imprison people or exile/purge them for not agreeing with our world view? If so should the UK exile Shamima's parents, her extended family, her like-minded friends, and anyone in the UK who refuses to do homage and swear fealty to the kingdom?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Is it ok for Canadian citizens to support and join ISIS? Would you welcome into your town people who left Canada to join an effort that goes against your countries principles?
I'm asking because you seem to believe the British citizens did nothing wrong.

mike2810 said:

Is it ok for Canadian citizens to support and join ISIS? Would you welcome into your town people who left Canada to join an effort that goes against your countries principles?
I'm asking because you seem to believe the British citizens did nothing wrong.

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Mike2810:

I cannot speak for all Canadians so I will give you my own view. Joining and/or directly supporting ISIL or groups like it is most definitely not okay. Welcome them back? No. Let back into the country? Yes. Prosecute for any crimes committed and if found guilty incarcerate? Yes. If not found guilty or if no charges can be laid then closely monitor? Yes. Force them into a de-radicalisation programme? Yes.

With the exception of the de-radicalisation programme, I would counsel the same treatment for any mercenary, soldier of fortune, or PMSC contractee returning to Canada from a foreign conflict. Our citizens are our problem and we must deal responsibly and effectively with the consequences of their actions in foreign lands if they come back to us.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

Mike2810:

I cannot speak for all Canadians so I will give you my own view. Joining and/or directly supporting ISIL or groups like it is most definitely not okay. Welcome them back? No. Let back into the country? Yes. Prosecute for any crimes committed and if found guilty incarcerate? Yes. If not found guilty or if no charges can be laid then closely monitor? Yes. Force them into a de-radicalisation programme? Yes.

With the exception of the de-radicalisation programme, I would counsel the same treatment for any mercenary, soldier of fortune, or PMSC contractee returning to Canada from a foreign conflict. Our citizens are our problem and we must deal responsibly and effectively with the consequences of their actions in foreign lands if they come back to us.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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We will differ in views. I would not want such persons back in my country. (personal view).

Evilroddy said:

CBS:

Good points made from the heart and with honest revulsion.

But, and there is always a but, did 15-year old Shamima Begum take up arms against anyone during her four years with ISIL or did she foolishly embark upon an adventure with her school mates, travel secretly with her two friends to a hellish warzone, marry and mate with a Dutch-born jihadi and have three children by him? The first option is levying war against the West, the second is being a damned fool.

To say the decisions of a fifteen-year old girl means that a 19 year old woman must be left to the cruel mercies of the Assad regime or the Kurds, who will likely summarily execute her as is happening to ISIL women in Iraq, is as callous and blood-thirsty as a young woman feeling no revulsion or remorse for severed human heads laying about her. To condemn her unborn child to a parentless life in war-torn Syria under the Assad Regime is as indifferent to an innocent child's welfare as putting your own children in a situation where they can die of malnutrition or disease. If the Brits cast Shamima and her unborn baby aside are they really that different from the monsters they have just defeated? There is a time for war and there is a time for peace. We seem to have forgotten about the ways of peace due to the forever-war and the unrelenting and poisonous propaganda from all sides which keeps it going. Is the capacity for mercy and the charity of redemption gone in the West? I hope not or we're just as enslaved by fundamentalism and extremism as those we detest and destroy.

Cheers?
Evilroddy.

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It's the "no regrets", sorry.
A person makes mistakes and they either learn from them or they don't.
Making a mistake of this magnitude, and then having "no regrets" puts every Westerner she comes into contact with in an impossible position, and puts them at an unreasonable risk, one of having to accommodate someone who has stated that they have "no regrets"...about what specifically? No regrets about supporting ISIS?

Sorry, but it is much more than just holding unpopular beliefs at this point.
I can accommodate unpopular beliefs.
I do not wish to strip Trumpers of their citizenship, even despite the fact that a large majority of them believe that should happen to me.
And those people will be with us for a very long time, even after Trump disappears, even if he disappears entirely in utter ignomy.
They will still hold the same mindset, and yet they deserve the same rights and freedoms that we all deserve.
My position on them will definitely change if they start shooting at me or helping their peers do so.

The Black Hebrew Israelites who hate and harass nearly every single person they come into contact with, like the Covington Catholic school kids who went to the monuments in Washington DC or the Native American drummers, still deserve their rights and freedoms as American citizens, despite their hugely unpopular and even hostile beliefs. There's no body count accredited to them either.

Many in the American wing of Antifa have now embraced a philosophy of "Liberals get the bullet, too."

Shall I accommodate them the next time I am roaming about the streets with my camera as a video journalist?
Maybe I should wait till a liberal like myself sacrifices their life before making a decision.
Or...maybe not. They have "no regrets" either. They have afforded themselves that luxury.

Should the UK accommodate Shemima Begum?
Okay sure, in a UK prison cell, to ensure the safety and security of peaceful and innocent British subjects.
Can the UK accommodate her child? Okay sure, away from the harmful and dangerous influences of the organization that its mother professes continuing and abiding allegiance to.
Shemima Begum is a tragic case of "damaged goods" and there's no way that I can imagine that allowing her to roam free in Western society won't wind up costing another innocent British subject their safety and security, or even their life, given that she has embraced the luxury of having "no regrets". Luxuries aren't without cost, you know.

It's not extremism, it's simple self-preservation.

chuckiechan said:

I only seem crazy to you ...

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Nope, I never said that you were crazy, you're just a malcontent, and I stripped and snipped everything else you PROJECTED onto me, because it was entirely a product of the voices in your head.
Of course, some people might say that indicates that you need some help.

Since the UK happily executes its own citizens (or gets the US to do it) via drone strikes in Syria, then it would be utterly perverse and hypocritical to welcome this terrorist back. In Syria she would be fair game for killing, but she should be allowed back?


I know that the UK is a crazy mixed up state, and I know there is a large bleeding heart lobby to allow this woman back, probably give her a house, benefits, special lessons on being all cuddly and nice to everyone - but seriously, there's a bigger lobby who would probably be happy to see her meet the end that the UK likes to dish up to its citizens who fight for ISIS.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

It's the "no regrets", sorry.
A person makes mistakes and they either learn from them or they don't.
Making a mistake of this magnitude, and then having "no regrets" puts every Westerner she comes into contact with in an impossible position, and puts them at an unreasonable risk, one of having to accommodate someone who has stated that they have "no regrets"...about what specifically? No regrets about supporting ISIS?

Sorry, but it is much more than just holding unpopular beliefs at this point.
I can accommodate unpopular beliefs.
I do not wish to strip Trumpers of their citizenship, even despite the fact that a large majority of them believe that should happen to me.
And those people will be with us for a very long time, even after Trump disappears, even if he disappears entirely in utter ignomy.
They will still hold the same mindset, and yet they deserve the same rights and freedoms that we all deserve.
My position on them will definitely change if they start shooting at me or helping their peers do so.

The Black Hebrew Israelites who hate and harass nearly every single person they come into contact with, like the Covington Catholic school kids who went to the monuments in Washington DC or the Native American drummers, still deserve their rights and freedoms as American citizens, despite their hugely unpopular and even hostile beliefs. There's no body count accredited to them either.

Many in the American wing of Antifa have now embraced a philosophy of "Liberals get the bullet, too."

Shall I accommodate them the next time I am roaming about the streets with my camera as a video journalist?
Maybe I should wait till a liberal like myself sacrifices their life before making a decision.
Or...maybe not. They have "no regrets" either. They have afforded themselves that luxury.

Should the UK accommodate Shemima Begum?
Okay sure, in a UK prison cell, to ensure the safety and security of peaceful and innocent British subjects.
Can the UK accommodate her child? Okay sure, away from the harmful and dangerous influences of the organization that its mother professes continuing and abiding allegiance to.
Shemima Begum is a tragic case of "damaged goods" and there's no way that I can imagine that allowing her to roam free in Western society won't wind up costing another innocent British subject their safety and security, or even their life, given that she has embraced the luxury of having "no regrets". Luxuries aren't without cost, you know.

It's not extremism, it's simple self-preservation.

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CBS:

I agree with the bolded section of your previous post. Lock the girl up or otherwise institutionalise her and fully de-radicalise and de-programme her before even considering restoring to her a measure of freedom. I never said that she should not face consequences for her choices both then and now. My only point is that she should not be stripped of her citizenship and that she should be readmitted to the UK if she makes the choice to go back after being fully informed of the consequences facing her if she should return.

I hope my rhetoric did not offend you as I never meant to label any poster here as fundamentalist and/or extremist. My purpose was to underline how even good and generous people can be hardened by unrelenting propaganda and the demonisation of "the other". The mindset is extremist and fundamentalist because it shuts down our own humanity and deprives our enemies of theirs. Notice I say humanity and not humaneness.

If Shamima Begum was actually a fighter rather than a wife of one, then my position would be quite different but for now the evidence does not support that second condition.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Westphalian said:

Since the UK happily executes its own citizens (or gets the US to do it) via drone strikes in Syria, then it would be utterly perverse and hypocritical to welcome this terrorist back. In Syria she would be fair game for killing, but she should be allowed back?


I know that the UK is a crazy mixed up state, and I know there is a large bleeding heart lobby to allow this woman back, probably give her a house, benefits, special lessons on being all cuddly and nice to everyone - but seriously, there's a bigger lobby who would probably be happy to see her meet the end that the UK likes to dish up to its citizens who fight for ISIS.

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Westphalian:

You brand this young woman as a terrorist. What terrorist act did she perform that makes Shamima Begum a terrorist? Is advocating for a hostile state or non-state actor to the UK sufficient grounds for being branded a terrorist and resultant execution? (Be careful answering here.) Is marrying a jihadi an act of terror? Is having a jihadi's children an act of terror? Is cooking a jihadi's meals and cleaning his clothes an act of terror? Where does the line of committing terrorism lie? Should Shamima Begum's family members who helped to radicalise her be drone striken in their London suburb or arrested and deported to Syria in order to die with their daughter/sibling in that broken land?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

CBS:

I agree with the bolded section of your previous post. Lock the girl up or otherwise institutionalise her and fully de-radicalise and de-programme her before even considering restoring to her a measure of freedom. I never said that she should not face consequences for her choices both then and now. My only point is that she should not be stripped of her citizenship and that she should be readmitted to the UK if she makes the choice to go back after being fully informed of the consequences facing her if she should return.

I hope my rhetoric did not offend you as I never meant to label any poster here as fundamentalist and/or extremist. My purpose was to underline how even good and generous people can be hardened by unrelenting propaganda and the demonisation of "the other". The mindset is extremist and fundamentalist because it shuts down our own humanity and deprives our enemies of theirs. Notice I say humanity and not humaneness.

If Shamima Begum was actually a fighter rather than a wife of one, then my position would be quite different but for now the evidence does not support that second condition.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Click to expand...

I am not easily offended. No, I get it.
Unfortunately for me, I do not hold out a lot of hope for deprogramming. Once in a while it works, but it's a crap shoot.
A very dear friend of mine fell for the moral panic of the 1990's, when so called "ritual satanic cult abuse" became the fashionable thing for pop psychologists to hang their shingle on.

Suddenly hundreds of thousands of people were accusing their parents of "recovered memories" of them being kidnapped and subjected to sexual torture at the hands of satanic cult members. Turns out that the "recovered memories" weren't recovered at all, they were entirely and utterly 100% manufactured and implanted, and for 99.9999999999999999% of patients, no such satanic abuses ever actually occurred in real life.
My friend Debbie was one such patient. And for her, despite all the evidence to the contrary, the illusions in her head are all too real.

Debbie's parents went to their graves protesting their innocence and she never believed them, and is still convinced to this day that she suffered ritual satanic abuse at their hands. Her life has been at a standstill since before I left SoCal back in 1998. After her husband died, she retreated and withdrew from the world atogether.

I've tried dozens of times to get through to her, and so have all her other friends. She's a lost cause.

But, on the other hand, there ARE recovered Scientologists, so maybe you're right.
And maybe I am too pessimistic.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

I am not easily offended. No, I get it.
Unfortunately for me, I do not hold out a lot of hope for deprogramming. Once in a while it works, but it's a crap shoot.
A very dear friend of mine fell for the moral panic of the 1990's, when so called "ritual satanic cult abuse" became the fashionable thing for pop psychologists to hang their shingle on.

Suddenly hundreds of thousands of people were accusing their parents of "recovered memories" of them being kidnapped and subjected to sexual torture at the hands of satanic cult members. Turns out that the "recovered memories" weren't recovered at all, they were entirely and utterly 100% manufactured and implanted, and for 99.9999999999999999% of patients, no such satanic abuses ever actually occurred in real life.
My friend Debbie was one such patient. And for her, despite all the evidence to the contrary, the illusions in her head are all too real.

Debbie's parents went to their graves protesting their innocence and she never believed them, and is still convinced to this day that she suffered ritual satanic abuse at their hands. Her life has been at a standstill since before I left SoCal back in 1998. After her husband died, she retreated and withdrew from the world atogether.

I've tried dozens of times to get through to her, and so have all her other friends. She's a lost cause.

But, on the other hand, there ARE recovered Scientologists, so maybe you're right.
And maybe I am too pessimistic.

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CBS:

Heartbreaking. That is a tragic tale, first and foremost for your friend and for yourself and for her other friends. Anything I can say would pale in comparison to the enormity of the damage and delusion done to her by this unreal reality inculcated into her mind. All I can do is wish you the ability to remuster the strength and stamina deep within you in order to stand by her and once again try to guide your friend, despite her occluded beliefs, to a better place. I hope that you and your other friends can one day lead her out of her inner darkness and into the light of a healthier and better future.

Be strong and do whatever you can manage without being drawn into the abyss yourselves. I've had to deal with mental illness in the family and it's both soul-crushingly demoralising and exhausting. But you've got to keep walking the metaphorical long march if you can. And if you can't, then you must preserve your own health for the sake of the rest of your family and fiends.

V/R
Evilroddy.

Evilroddy said:

Mike2810:

I cannot speak for all Canadians so I will give you my own view. Joining and/or directly supporting ISIL or groups like it is most definitely not okay. Welcome them back? No. Let back into the country? Yes. Prosecute for any crimes committed and if found guilty incarcerate?

Click to expand...

How do you propose acquiring evidence against suspected Canadian ISIS members deported from Syria?

I don't believe you understand and appreciate the difficulties prosecutors face in prosecuting cloaked people who used aliases during their criminality.

You do realize that most ISIS members covered their faces in public? Who would testify against them?

Rogue Valley said:

How do you propose acquiring evidence against suspected Canadian ISIS members deported from Syria?

I don't believe you understand and appreciate the difficulties prosecutors face in prosecuting cloaked people who used aliases during their criminality.

You do realize that most ISIS members covered their faces in public? Who would testify against them?

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Rogue Valley:

If intelligence services have information which indicates that a returning individual may be a danger to Canadians or if after debriefings by skilled interrogators there is a reasonable doubt that the returnee would not be peaceable if released then there are legal mechanisms to hold returning ISIS members preventitively. In Canada there are legal instruments like Security Certificates with which to hold such returnees in detention until the authorities can either gain enough evidence to charge and try them or those authorities can come to the conclusion that the detainee does not likely present a real threat to public safety and good order.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

There are over 25 million people who can be classified as refugees globally. She is right at the bottom of the list of those deserving of sympathy and assistance.

Her little one is innocent here, let him come back as a British citizen by descent. Utilise Child Protection Resources to ensure the child is cared for. She can stay where she is. I don't even want to hear the sob stories of "oh but that's so cruel, she's his mother." She's not a fit mother. A decent mother would never claim to have no regrets when she has lost her other two very young children already . That comment alone is just unforgivable.

If she really cares for the little boy, she can let him go.

TheParser said:

I hope so, too.


But the Brits will let her return.

For some reason, the Brits are even bigger bleeding hearts than our own liberals.

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LLetting Begum back into Britain is one thing, sending British soldiers or consular officials into danger to rescue her is something else. This piece puts it well:

Why risk our soldiers’ lives to save a girl who’d have been happy to see their heads cut off? | The Conservative Woman

Evilroddy said:

Rogue Valley:

If intelligence services have information which indicates that a returning individual may be a danger to Canadians or if after debriefings by skilled interrogators there is a reasonable doubt that the returnee would not be peaceable if released then there are legal mechanisms to hold returning ISIS members preventitively. In Canada there are legal instruments like Security Certificates with which to hold such returnees in detention until the authorities can either gain enough evidence to charge and try them or those authorities can come to the conclusion that the detainee does not likely present a real threat to public safety and good order.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

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Ah yes - "legal instruments". Have they ever been used? Are there actually any blood-soaked ISIS groupies actually in detention in Canada? Or would such harsh treatment offend Trudeau's tender soul?