Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer and stealth is totally irrelevant

Great news from Sweden!! i hope we will see them in Ukraine and everywhere in Eastern Europe very soon eace




Sweden's Air Force says its Gripen E fighter jets are designed to kill Russia's fearsome Sukhoi fighter jets, and that they have a "black belt" in that type of combat.
The Gripen E can't carry the most weapons, has no real stealth, isn't the longest-range, fastest, or even cheapest jet, but has a massive and respected electronic warfare capability.
The Gripen E is Sweden's cheap solution to killing Russia's fighter jets and surface-to-air missiles, and Russia probably can't do much about it.


Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant - Business Insider Nordic

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Litwin said:

Great news from Sweden!! i hope we will see them in Ukraine and everywhere in Eastern Europe very soon eace

Sweden's Air Force says its Gripen E fighter jets are designed to kill Russia's fearsome Sukhoi fighter jets, and that they have a "black belt" in that type of combat.
The Gripen E can't carry the most weapons, has no real stealth, isn't the longest-range, fastest, or even cheapest jet, but has a massive and respected electronic warfare capability.
The Gripen E is Sweden's cheap solution to killing Russia's fighter jets and surface-to-air missiles, and Russia probably can't do much about it.


Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant - Business Insider Nordic

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Sounds like a broadside against long standing Pentagon doctrine and beliefs.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Hawkeye10 said:

Sounds like a broadside against long standing Pentagon doctrine and beliefs.

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well. it works and in this case it is only one matter

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

This really isn't fair to Russia... the playing field needs to be even and the Swedish should get a penalty.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Litwin said:

well. it works and in this case it is only one matter

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I failed to follow and the Pentagons record for being right and getting things done well is not spectacular.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Any NATO country currently spending just 1.03% GDP on defense (Sweden) can most certainly step up and do better.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Hawkeye10 said:

Sounds like a broadside against long standing Pentagon doctrine and beliefs.

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I like it.......

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Casper said:

I like it.......

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Did we catch you doing 7 things at once?

Talk to me about it....

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

What a bizarre claim Sweden is making. They admit their jet fighter is inferior in every way having to do with aircraft. Slower. High radar profile. Shorter range. Has less weaponry. Costs a lot more. But it has great electronics!!!

That reads like someone with a Yugo claiming his car is better than any car the USA, the Japanese or Germans make - because he put a fantastic stereo in it!!!

:lamo

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

joko104 said:

What a bizarre claim Sweden is making. They admit their jet fighter is inferior in every way having to do with aircraft. Slower. High radar profile. Shorter range. Has less weaponry. Costs a lot more. But it has great electronics!!!

That reads like someone with a Yugo claiming his car is better than any car the USA, the Japanese or Germans make - because he put a fantastic stereo in it!!!

:lamo

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Did you just equate electronic warfare capability to a car stereo?

Back in the early 80's when VW was still making its SuperBeetle and I was still a ham radio operator and had a rather massive setup in my car, I noticed a peculiar anomaly one day while whizzing down Interstate 10. A 1978 SuperBeetle (first model with electronic ignition) was pulling up alongside and trying to pass but I was busy talking to someone in Lake Havasu some 300 miles away, and because it was groundwave based communications with no repeaters and no atmospheric "skip" involved, I had my RF amplifier turned up to 300 watts so that I could be heard reliably in Havasu City.

Suddenly I heard the VW sputtering and misfiring. As it turned out, every time I keyed my mic to talk to my buddy in Arizona, I was apparently killing the electronic ignition in the VW by drowning it with excess RF energy from my transmitter, so he would almost pass me and then suddenly his engine would cut out completely and then when I released the mic, it would sputter back to life with a big backfire.

I confess this was amusing to me and my friends in the car and I confess that yes, I DID key the mic a few more times just to watch the effect it was having on the poor guy in the VW, who by the way had NO earthly idea why his German economy car was suddenly having a conniption fit.

That is an example of very crude electronic warfare at street level. Now extrapolate that to military sophistication and billion dollar budgets.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

The needs of aircraft depends upon need. For short range territorial defense and a first world military power such as Russia, stealth isn't worth the price nor needed. Stealth is valuable against 2nd and 3rd world powers.

All countries abandoned pursuing higher speed as the goal - and aircraft now flies no faster than it did decades ago. Among first world powers it is all about electronics - and Russia is vastly so inferior in electronics that it is nearly impossible for Russia to shoot down even our slow, lumbering big surveillance aircraft. That said, we nor Sweden know what Russia (or China) will have tomorrow.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Did you just equate electronic warfare capability to a car stereo?

Back in the early 80's when VW was still making its SuperBeetle and I was still a ham radio operator and had a rather massive setup in my car, I noticed a peculiar anomaly one day while whizzing down Interstate 10. A 1978 SuperBeetle (first model with electronic ignition) was pulling up alongside and trying to pass but I was busy talking to someone in Lake Havasu some 300 miles away, and because it was groundwave based communications with no repeaters and no atmospheric "skip" involved, I had my RF amplifier turned up to 300 watts so that I could be heard reliably in Havasu City.

Suddenly I heard the VW sputtering and misfiring. As it turned out, every time I keyed my mic to talk to my buddy in Arizona, I was apparently killing the electronic ignition in the VW by drowning it with excess RF energy from my transmitter, so he would almost pass me and then suddenly his engine would cut out completely and then when I released the mic, it would sputter back to life with a big backfire.

I confess this was amusing to me and my friends in the car and I confess that yes, I DID key the mic a few more times just to watch the effect it was having on the poor guy in the VW, who by the way had NO earthly idea why his German economy car was suddenly having a conniption fit.

That is an example of very crude electronic warfare at street level. Now extrapolate that to military sophistication and billion dollar budgets.

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I agree with all of that, but you also made my point. Your recount does show something special about your VW, but about electronics.

Rather, my point is that Sweden bragging about their aircraft isn't about aircraft at all. It is about their electronics - electronics that could be in any aircraft. However, developing new "electronics" can happen and be implemented at any time - with no certainty that Russia has the same capabilities limitations tomorrow they have today. It takes a great deal of time to take a new aircraft from concept to flying aircraft.

While trying to pirate their electronics superiority as a boast of their aircraft, it isn't about their aircraft at all and until there is a shooting conflict with Russian aircraft and missiles, there is no certainty. Generally, every country and every defense contractor declares what they have is the best. The proof isn't in the boasting, it is in who wins the actual shooting contest. Until there is one, who knows who to believe?

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

joko104 said:

I agree with all of that, but you also made my point. Your recount does show something special about your VW, but about electronics.

Rather, my point is that Sweden bragging about their aircraft isn't about aircraft at all. It is about their electronics - electronics that could be in any aircraft. However, developing new "electronics" can happen and be implemented at any time - with no certainty that Russia has the same capabilities limitations tomorrow they have today. It takes a great deal of time to take a new aircraft from concept to flying aircraft.

While trying to pirate their electronics superiority as a boast of their aircraft, it isn't about their aircraft at all and until there is a shooting conflict with Russian aircraft and missiles, there is no certainty. Generally, every country and every defense contractor declares what they have is the best. The proof isn't in the boasting, it is in who wins the actual shooting contest. Until there is one, who knows who to believe?

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But you didn't say all that :lamo
You made a crack about a car stereo (and it made me laugh hard)
But okay, so you DO understand after all.
As to whether the Russians will counter the Swedish effort, your guess is as good as mine or anyone's.

PS: I wasn't the guy with the VW, the VW was the poor unfortunate soul being drowned with the RF spewing out of my 1/4 wave antenna.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Russian advances in military design, electronics and software is going to be increasingly of less importance than China's. If you question that, ask yourself who made how you are posting your messages on the forum? It's not the Russians.

Some day I hope that the fact that the USSR and Cold War ended decades ago finally overcoming the massive trillions of dollars, jobs and power from declaring it didn't - so we can focus on the future rather than the past. The EU/Europe has 5 times the population and 10 times the money, technology and manufacturing capabilities than Russia. There is no need for us to defend Europe.

No major military power - USA or Europe - has a greater population, significantly greater economy or greater manufacturing ability that China - and China is growing while Russia is in decline and we are increasingly stagnant - and dependent upon China for products plus own China hundreds of billions of dollars.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Checkerboard Strangler said:

But you didn't say all that :lamo
You made a crack about a car stereo (and it made me laugh hard)
But okay, so you DO understand after all.
As to whether the Russians will counter the Swedish effort, your guess is as good as mine or anyone's.

PS: I wasn't the guy with the VW, the VW was the poor unfortunate soul being drowned with the RF spewing out of my 1/4 wave antenna.

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That was my point but OK, seems we're on the same page on that.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

joko104 said:

Russian advances in military design, electronics and software is going to be increasingly of less importance than China's. If you question that, ask yourself who made how you are posting your messages on the forum? It's not the Russians.

Some day I hope that the fact that the USSR and Cold War ended decades ago finally overcoming the massive trillions of dollars, jobs and power from declaring it didn't - so we can focus on the future rather than the past. The EU/Europe has 5 times the population and 10 times the money, technology and manufacturing capabilities than Russia. There is no need for us to defend Europe.

No major military power - USA or Europe - has a greater population, significantly greater economy or greater manufacturing ability that China - and China is growing while Russia is in decline and we are increasingly stagnant - and dependent upon China for products plus own China hundreds of billions of dollars.

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I am not anyone who is arguing about any imagined Russian superiority in electronics technology, even in their military, much of which, while possibly well maintained, might be considered long in the tooth and of antiquated design.

I get that joke about Russia basically being a large gas station masquerading as a country or Nigeria with snow, because much of it outside Moscow is indeed Nigeria with snow.
When I used to work camera for American-Russian Television in West Hollywood back in the 1980's, we purchased an Amiga 3000 computer with the NewTek Video Toaster cards for about five thousand dollars.
My Russian boss remarked to me at the time that an equivalent computer in the USSR would be the Russian equivalent of a hundred thousand dollars.
"Russian equivalent? You saying that the USSR is manufacturing their own computer equipment?"

The answer was "NO"...because they didn't have anything near as advanced as an Amiga at the time, and most CONSUMER electronics in the 1980's still relied heavily on transistor and vacuum tube circuitry instead of microprocessors.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Checkerboard Strangler said:

I am not anyone who is arguing about any imagined Russian superiority in electronics technology, even in their military, much of which, while possibly well maintained, might be considered long in the tooth and of antiquated design.

I get that joke about Russia basically being a large gas station masquerading as a country or Nigeria with snow, because much of it outside Moscow is indeed Nigeria with snow.
When I used to work camera for American-Russian Television in West Hollywood back in the 1980's, we purchased an Amiga 3000 computer with the NewTek Video Toaster cards for about five thousand dollars.
My Russian boss remarked to me at the time that an equivalent computer in the USSR would be the Russian equivalent of a hundred thousand dollars.
"Russian equivalent? You saying that the USSR is manufacturing their own computer equipment?"

The answer was "NO"...because they didn't have anything near as advanced as an Amiga at the time, and most CONSUMER electronics in the 1980's still relied heavily on transistor and vacuum tube circuitry instead of microprocessors.

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Any major power can build aircraft and missiles that go fast and far - and if a nuclear weapons power can build as big and as many nuclear bombs and warheads as they want to. But Russia is a technological dinosaur. China isn't. We're still far ahead of China, of course, but China really only got in the International military game recently.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

joko104 said:

Any major power can build aircraft and missiles that go fast and far - and if a nuclear weapons power can build as big and as many nuclear bombs and warheads as they want to. But Russia is a technological dinosaur. China isn't. We're still far ahead of China, of course, but China really only got in the International military game recently.

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We gave away Magnaquench to them. Nice.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Checkerboard Strangler said:

We gave away Magnaquench to them. Nice.

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The power of money unfortunately can outweigh any other consideration. Added to this is our debts to China cause great pressure to sell anything to China as an offset.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Correction or ADDENDUM to my Post #16:

"The answer was "NO"...because they didn't have anything near as advanced as an Amiga at the time, and most CONSUMER electronics IN the USSR in the 1980's still relied heavily on transistor and vacuum tube circuitry instead of microprocessors."

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

The Gripen E is part of a veiled response to repeated "spying" from remote UAV's operated from Russia whenever the Swedes hold military exercises.

It's also a long term plan by Sweden to extend the life of the Gripen by turning it into an armed UAV without the huge cost of developing a fancy looking new 7th generation fighter plane.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

joko104 said:

For short range territorial defense and a first world military power such as Russia, stealth isn't worth the price nor needed.

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Beyond a massive nuclear/missile arsenal, Russia is not much of a first world military power. Virtually no logistics capability and no viable aircraft carriers for power projection.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

The Russian military also has top notch SIGINT/jamming systems. The problem, again, is moving them anywhere besides next-door Ukraine.

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

Bodhisattva said:

This really isn't fair to Russia... the playing field needs to be even and the Swedish should get a penalty.

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how can it be even ?

Re: Sweden says it built a Russian fighter jet killer — and stealth is totally irrelevant

joko104 said:

What a bizarre claim Sweden is making. They admit their jet fighter is inferior in every way having to do with aircraft. Slower. High radar profile. Shorter range. Has less weaponry. Costs a lot more. But it has great electronics!!!

That reads like someone with a Yugo claiming his car is better than any car the USA, the Japanese or Germans make - because he put a fantastic stereo in it!!!

:lamo

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The one part you are wrong is on the costs a lot more, the gripen is one of the cheapest jets on the market, especially when considering costs to what it comes with. Granted it would not match a sukhoi in performance but for what they sell it for it is a good deal since it still stands a good chance in a fight.

This is also considering sukhoi jets are expensive, many of them are more costly to buy from russia than american jets like the f-15 and f-16, so the money spent to what countries who buy them get makes them a worthy jet.