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The falsification of history: 'Ukraine' is not a country

GreatNews2night said:
Bygones. 1932. A lot changed in the world between that, and the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

There is no Stalin any longer.

That was the Soviet Union.

The Russian Federation is a different country.

Putin may be a jerk, but he is no Stalin.
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Although both peoples are Slavs, Ukraine is not Russia. Different histories, traditions, culture, folklore, foods, traditional dress etc. Although mutually intelligible with Russian (east Slavic languages), the Ukrainian language has more in common with Belorussian and Polish.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Although both peoples are Slavs, Ukraine is not Russia. Different histories, traditions, culture, folklore, foods, traditional dress etc. Although mutually intelligible with Russian (east Slavic languages), the Ukrainian language has more in common with Belorussian and Polish.
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And no, the Holodomor is not a "bygone". Anyone who has lived in Ukraine easily realizes that.
 
Slava Ukrayini. Proshchay.
 
I think the situations in Ukraine and in Syria and throughout the Middle East and as well as the Yugoslav Wars are more closely intertwined in cause and effect than what is being portrayed by BOTH sides. If anything this is kind of like a proto-Croatian War of Independence scenario (with Russians added, on the side of the Croatians, which are the aggressors this time, and have taken Vojvodina in the process), an ongoing Frozen War in the post-Soviet Union orbit. But I have a feeling it is about to escalate. Yulia Tymoshenko is a threat to pro-EU reforms in Ukraine, and she unfortunately has connections to the Kremlin as well. Even if she is routed by an insurgent, it doesn't look like it will be Poroshenko.

In the five years since the popular uprising that swept Yanukovich from power, Ukraine’s heady optimism for change has faded. Seventy percent of Ukrainians believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, according to a December survey.

“There is fatigue from unfulfilled hopes,” Iryna Bekeshkina, the director of the Democratic Initiatives Foundation, one of three organizations that carried out the survey, told Reuters.

Poroshenko wants Ukraine to apply for EU membership in 2024. But while the West remains supportive of Ukraine, the country’s prospects of joining the bloc any time soon are questionable.
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Either way, this is part of an ongoing Frozen War that began when Russia and Ukraine invaded Moldova in 1992 via a Russian-backed backed effort to essentially take over Moldova with a puppet government.

The Transnistria War was an armed conflict that broke out in November 1990 in Dubăsari (Russian: Дубоссáры, Dubossary) between pro-Transnistria forces, including the Transnistrian Republican Guard, militia and Cossack units (which were supported by elements of the Russian 14th Army), and pro-Moldovan forces, including Moldovan troops and police. Fighting intensified on 1 March 1992 and, alternating with ad hoc ceasefires, lasted throughout the spring and early summer of 1992 until a ceasefire was declared on 21 July 1992, which has held. The conflict remained unresolved, but in 2011 talks were held under the auspices of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) with Lithuania holding the rotating chairmanship.[11]
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So this crisis was ongoing until a few years AFTER the 2008 Georgia War, and a few years BEFORE the first signs of severe unrest in Ukraine - running concurrent to the aforementioned Yugoslav Wars, NATO intervention in Yugoslavia, September 11 attacks, Declaration of the Global War on Terror, US Invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the invasion of Libya in 2011, the same year the Syrian Civil War and the War on Isis began...

In fact, despite the 2011 talks, in the wake of the 2014 Russian intervention, renewed concern was brought forth by the U.S. commander of NATO, who warned "Russian troops poised to 'run' into Moldova"

“There is absolutely sufficient [Russian] force postured on the eastern border of Ukraine to run to Transdniester if the decision was made to do that, and that is very worrisome,” he said at a meeting in Brussels hosted by the Marshall Fund, a German think tank.
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Westphalian said:
Your logic problem not mine.


Probably a waste of time trying to reason with those for whom hatred of Russia is ingrained.
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Dinna fash y'sel, laddie.

Nobody in his right mind has any interest left in reasoning with you.

Alone your constant lie of everyone critical of Kremlin policies also hating Russia precludes that.
 
Chagos said:
Dinna fash y'sel, laddie.

Nobody in his right mind has any interest left in reasoning with you.

Alone your constant lie of everyone critical of Kremlin policies also hating Russia precludes that.
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Your constant lie of how western critics hate the 'Putin regime' but like Russians is desperately flawed by the fact that Putin is a popularly elected Russian himself, and a leader who retains office with the will of the majority of Russian people.

These same people generally liked Yeltsin, who was drunk, ineffective, weak and presided over the rape and pillage of Russian assets by oligarchs (who have now mostly fled to the West) which belonged to the people.


Hmmmm ........
 
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Westphalian said:
Your constant lie of how western critics hate the 'Putin regime' but like Russians is desperately flawed by the fact that Putin is a popularly elected Russian himself, and a leader who retains office with the will of the majority of Russian people.

These same people generally liked Yeltsin, who was drunk, ineffective, weak and presided over the rape and pillage of Russian assets by oligarchs (who have now mostly fled to the West) which belonged to the people.
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Where have I heard all this before?

Barmat scandal - Wikipedia
 
CEngelbrecht said:
Where have I heard all this before?

Barmat scandal - Wikipedia
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Let's get real here.

The West does not seek to act in the interests of Russians any more than Russia acts in the interests of Americans.

Pleading about how much your heart bleeds for ordinary Russians is as nauseatingly condescending and hypocritical as when RT runs stories about the plight of poor Americans.
 
Westphalian said:
Your constant lie of how western critics hate the 'Putin regime' but like Russians is desperately flawed by the fact that Putin is a popularly elected Russian himself, and a leader who retains office with the will of the majority of Russian people.
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takes nothing from your lie of everybody critical of the Kremlin here thus hating Russia and Russians,

These same people generally liked Yeltsin, who was drunk, ineffective, weak and presided over the rape and pillage of Russian assets by oligarchs (who have now mostly fled to the West) which belonged to the people.
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takes nothing from your lie of everybody critical of the Kremlin here thus hating Russia and Russians,
Hmmmm ........
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Yeah!
 
Westphalian said:
Let's get real here.

The West does not seek to act in the interests of Russians any more than Russia acts in the interests of Americans.

Pleading about how much your heart bleeds for ordinary Russians is as nauseatingly condescending and hypocritical as when RT runs stories about the plight of poor Americans.
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I'm not American, am I?
 
pinqy said:
What does that have to do with anything? I wasn’t making any judgement, simply stating my observation.
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pinqy said:
To be fair, their are a fair number of Ukrainians who hate Russia
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You would probably hate Russia also if they invaded Virginia and killed 13,000+, wounded 25,000+, displaced 1.5 million, and destroyed 64,000 structures.
 
Rogue Valley said:
You would probably hate Russia also if they invaded Virginia and killed 13,000+, wounded 25,000+, displaced 1.5 million, and destroyed 64,000 structures.
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This is a public urinal in Lviv.

23B209AB00000578-2858807-Peeing_on_Putin_Stickers_posted_on_urinals_use_an_expletive_to_d-a-5_1417623588356.jpg


Lviv, Ukraine where locals shoot and urinate at image of Russian president Vladimir Putin | Daily Mail Online
 
CEngelbrecht said:
@Westphalian

Was that the insult? That after '91, we wanted to treat Russia as an equal and not superior?
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The US is incapable of regarding any other state as an equal. It sees other states as either vassals, future vassals to be bombed into submission, or 'rogue' states too difficult to bomb into submission.


Virtually all EU states are confirmed vassals.
 
Westphalian said:
The US is incapable of regarding any other state as an equal. It sees other states as either vassals, future vassals to be bombed into submission, or 'rogue' states too difficult to bomb into submission.

Virtually all EU states are confirmed vassals.
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That's why all the European states ran to NATO like their lives depended on it. And they did.
 
Westphalian said:
The US is incapable of regarding any other state as an equal. It sees other states as either vassals, future vassals to be bombed into submission, or 'rogue' states too difficult to bomb into submission.


Virtually all EU states are confirmed vassals.
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"Thief thinks every man steals."
- Danish proverb



Self-determination - Wikipedia

During and after World War I, the principle was encouraged by both Vladimir Lenin and United States President Woodrow Wilson. Having announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918, on 11 February 1918 Wilson stated: "National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. 'Self determination' is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action."
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Rogue Valley said:
You would probably hate Russia also if they invaded Virginia and killed 13,000+, wounded 25,000+, displaced 1.5 million, and destroyed 64,000 structures.
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I’m still not sure if your point. I said nothing about whether the hatred was justified or not, so your claim that I would also feel such hatred in similar circumstances is a complete non sequitur.
 
pinqy said:
I’m still not sure if your point. I said nothing about whether the hatred was justified or not, so your claim that I would also feel such hatred in similar circumstances is a complete non sequitur.
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Never mind. I don't feel like going down the semantics rabbit hole.
 
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