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NATO: Russia in ‘material breach’ of nuclear arms treaty

Westphalian said:
I must contend that it you who is deluded here, and indeed lying to yourself.


Crimea is Russian in every meaningful sense. You are clinging onto a de jure interpretation, but I would point you to the de facto situation, and de facto is what matters in a practical sense.
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So if Sweden invaded your home city, on account of it not being "re-takeable" declared it to be Swedish in every meaningful sense, you'd be all right with that! Not de jure, of course, but de facto, sure!

You really do make some pretty silly claims, like if I can keep what I stole, tough on the one I stole it from.
 
Chagos said:
you can mantra your master's delusion of divide and rule of Europe ever working from Russia until you're blue in the face.

The fact remains that with Russian shenanigans of the past years, there is no single country of Europe that you can single out as not being distrustful of the Kremlin. Whether it wants accommodation and peaceful existence or not. And any accommodation will not apply to Kremlin criminal behaviour in breaching international laws and the sovereignty of states.
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Oh Chagos, I really do value your comments :).

But look, the US has breached international law and sovereignty on numerous occasions - Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria ......... you know the roll call.

So obviously that behaviour, common to both the US and Russia, is not the reason why European states love the former and distrust the latter.

The reason for the current dichotomy is that European states are still too dependent / subservient to the US, largely for historical reasons. They haven't yet developed an independent security capability, they haven't weaned themselves off the US. When or if they finally manage this, you'll see a much more balanced attitude ......... less critical of Russia, more critical of the US. The EU has the right idea, it knows that Europe is weak and irrelevant in global affairs, punching well below its weight. It knows why too ...........
 
Chagos said:
So if Sweden invaded your home city, on account of it not being "re-takeable" declared it to be Swedish in every meaningful sense, you'd be all right with that! Not de jure, of course, but de facto, sure!

You really do make some pretty silly claims, like if I can keep what I stole, tough on the one I stole it from.
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The difference with Crimea is of course that most Crimeans are Russian and welcomed the action.

Your example fails for that very significant reason. The world knows it too.
 
Westphalian said:
Oh Chagos, I really do value your comments :).

But look, the US has breached international law and sovereignty on numerous occasions - Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria ......... you know the roll call...........................~
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cutting thru the usual whataboutism and the rest of the tripe, Russia has invaded and annnexed (stolen) territory.

Hum and haw as you wish, nothing you can change in that.

And with historical European experience (at least where the Western part is concerned) of Russia ever since 1945, nobody here needs the US to know that you can't trust a country whose regime is back to old habits.
 
Westphalian said:
The difference with Crimea is of course that most Crimeans are Russian and welcomed the action.

Your example fails for that very significant reason. The world knows it too.
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Your excuse fails on the same level that the Sudetenland excuse failed in its time.
 
Chagos said:
Your excuse fails on the same level that the Sudetenland excuse failed in its time.
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This is another tired and dated poor analogy for all the reasons you know only too well.

The West doesn't even believe that analogy because if it did then NATO would have tried to 'liberate' Crimea by force, eturnjng it to neo Nazi control.
 
Godric1970 said:
what part of there use is illegal under the INF treaty ... there use is illegal look up the INF treaty before spouting any more of your nonsense because you do not know what you are talking about

they can also be used offensively ... it's the exact same Mark 41 VLS system the US navy uses to fire it's tomahawk cruise missiles
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The missiles themselves are not banned. It is the launcher.
 
Westphalian said:
This is another tired and dated poor analogy for all the reasons you know only too well.
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That you would say that is of course understandable, since hypocrisy is often your only and final resort.
The West doesn't even believe that analogy because if it did then NATO would have tried to 'liberate' Crimea by force, eturnjng it to neo Nazi control.
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The analogy also stands in that the West did not liberate the Sudetenland either, so thank you for making my point.

Nazi Germany needed to continue its criminal acts of aggression some more, for Western forces to gather to the point of punching it on the nose (as in showing where the buck stops).

You'd better hope that your Kremlin masters understand the historical equivalence better than you pretend to do.
 
Russia proposes UN resolution to preserve INF treaty

This is Moscow propaganda theater. Putin knows that the only thing which will save the INF is Russia's adhering to the treaty rather than cheating since 2010.

Russia sure didn't want any UN investigative tribunal for the MH17 shoot-down, or allowing the OPCW to name countries that are using chemical weapons.
 
Chagos said:
That you would say that is of course understandable, since hypocrisy is often your only and final resort.
The analogy also stands in that the West did not liberate the Sudetenland either, so thank you for making my point.

Nazi Germany needed to continue its criminal acts of aggression some more, for Western forces to gather to the point of punching it on the nose (as in showing where the buck stops).

You'd better hope that your Kremlin masters understand the historical equivalence better than you pretend to do.
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:lamo

Historical revisionism alert.

We don't need lectures on WW2 from Americans, Spanish or British.

The US only bothered to enter the war at all when its own soil was attacked. Spain couldn't be bothered at all. The British would have lost.

Europe was saved from Nazism by the Soviets, not by some crusading western force.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Russia proposes UN resolution to preserve INF treaty

This is Moscow propaganda theater. Putin knows that the only thing which will save the INF is Russia's adhering to the treaty rather than cheating since 2010.

Russia sure didn't want any UN investigative tribunal for the MH17 shoot-down, or allowing the OPCW to name countries that are using chemical weapons.
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It's awkward isn't it - when the US unilaterally withdraws from another treaty, especially one which is a cornerstone of European security.


We absolutely should expose US hypocrisy on the INF ........ a US which is itself in breach of INF due to its SM-3 launchers in Poland and Romania.
 
Westphalian said:
:lamo

Historical revisionism alert.

We don't need lectures on WW2 from Americans, Spanish or British.

The US only bothered to enter the war at all when its own soil was attacked. Spain couldn't be bothered at all. The British would have lost.

Europe was saved from Nazism by the Soviets, not by some crusading western force.
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What a load of rubbish.

The US were heavily reinforcing the Brits with supplies before Pearl Harbor and supplies of trucks, tanks and other items to the Soviets began well before that as well. Both by the Brits and the US.

And where one may indeed argue that the Soviets would have eventually defeated Germany without the Allied invasion on the Atlantic, in Africa and Italy, it's safe to say that the toll on Soviets would have been multiple times more than it was, without US aid.

Leaving completely aside what sort of "salvation" the Soviets brought to large parts of Europe.

Quite amazing the level of failure of argument you will continue to pursue but then OTH honesty doesn't appear to be your concern much anyway.

The Sudetenland analogy remaining as standing, your only "counter" having repeatedly consisted of you standing in the school yard with a finger in each ear, shrieking "didn't, didn't, didn't".
 
Chagos - 'Nazi Germany needed to continue its criminal acts of aggression some more, for Western forces to gather to the point of punching it on the nose (as in showing where the buck stops)'.


If you regard that as useful historical analysis then you're clearly not thinking straight. Your words are an insult to Russia, and reflect quite incredible poetic licence which lacks any credibility whatever.
 
More evidence that the US wants to kill INF. No wonder it doesn't want any discussion of this at UNGA :roll:.


MOSCOW, December 15. /TASS/. Russian Defense Minister Army General Sergei Shoigu suggested discussing the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) issue with Pentagon chief James Mattis but the Pentagon failed to give even a formal response, Russian Defense Ministry Spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov told reporters on Saturday.

According to him, several days ago, two messages were conveyed to Mattis through a defense attache for the US embassy. The first one concerned the situation in Syria. "In the second message, the Russian defense minister suggested discussing the differences in the two countries’ positions on compliance conditions of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty," Konashenkov said, adding that the messages had highlighted the Russian Defense Ministry’s readiness "for open and specific dialogue with the Pentagon on all the pressing issues on bilateral agenda."

"Nevertheless, after three days, the US Department of Defense failed to give even a formal response to the Russian Defense Ministry’s suggestion," the ministry spokesman noted. Konashenkov stressed that it proved "the United States’ unwillingness to maintain a meaningful and professional dialogue with Russia in order to resolve pertinent issues related to regional and global security."



More:
TASS: Military & Defense - Pentagon chief avoids dialogue on INF Treaty with Russian defense minister - ministry
 
Westphalian said:
Chagos - 'Nazi Germany needed to continue its criminal acts of aggression some more, for Western forces to gather to the point of punching it on the nose (as in showing where the buck stops)'.


If you regard that as useful historical analysis then you're clearly not thinking straight. Your words are an insult to Russia, and reflect quite incredible poetic licence which lacks any credibility whatever.
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If you prefer to stick to the fabrications of history that you're dealt by the Kremlin, that's not my problem.

Fact remains that it took the German invasion of Poland for the West to abdicate its appeasement stance and the first insult to Russia was committed by herself in joining the Nazis at dividing the Polish spoils.

If you wanna see anyone lacking credibility, go look in a mirror. Presuming, that is, that it hasn't cracked long since.
 
Fledermaus said:
The missiles themselves are not banned. It is the launcher.
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America has tested the system firing Tomahawk cruise missiles ... so yeah America has broken the INF treaty .... America seems to think we zip up the back .... the EU clearly sees America threatening to pulling out of another treaty (INF) endangers EU security and then their is JCPOA and the Paris agreements ... we see the trend we are not blind or dumb
 
Chagos said:
What a load of rubbish.

The US were heavily reinforcing the Brits with supplies before Pearl Harbor and supplies of trucks, tanks and other items to the Soviets began well before that as well. Both by the Brits and the US.

And where one may indeed argue that the Soviets would have eventually defeated Germany without the Allied invasion on the Atlantic, in Africa and Italy, it's safe to say that the toll on Soviets would have been multiple times more than it was, without US aid.

Leaving completely aside what sort of "salvation" the Soviets brought to large parts of Europe.

Quite amazing the level of failure of argument you will continue to pursue but then OTH honesty doesn't appear to be your concern much anyway.

The Sudetenland analogy remaining as standing, your only "counter" having repeatedly consisted of you standing in the school yard with a finger in each ear, shrieking "didn't, didn't, didn't".
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you do realise when the western allies landed in Normandy ... the Soviets had entered eastern Prussia and into eastern Poland ... the timeline would have been the same ... the western allies only faced a fraction of the Nazi forces because the bulk of their forces were on the Eastern Front with the bulk of their elite units

revisionism is in full swing in American schools i see


i had to laugh a couple of months after the nazis surrendered the soviets invited UK and America to parade there latest tanks through the streets of Berlin it started off with the Brits with their Cromwell tanks (similar to the German Panzer 4 ausf F2) Patton was standing proud when the US M-26 Pershings started to parade and when it came to the soviets Patton started to panic with the distant rumble of steel tracks on concrete and turned to Zhukov and said remember we are on your side when he saw the Josef Stalin 3 tank
 
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Westphalian said:
Tangmo - Milley is a professional soldier of considerable intellect.


He does not speak the way you do, or make the kind of ridiculous claims you do. Your interpretation of his speeches is stupidly selective and risible.
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Trump calls Gen. Milley "the bomb thrower in the White House." Milley has dominated JCS since he joined 'em in 2015 as CSA. He calls 'em "the team." Now it's been formalized as Milley has been named as the next chairman JCS. You don't know what Milley says about anything much less Russia, Putin and his oligarchy, not to mention Putin's allies such as China, NK, Iran. I approve of Gen. Milley for a number of reasons, one of 'em being he makes me think of Gen. Patton. That's a feature of Milley's you've missed completely -- which is no surprise.

I have advised you he's chief of staff of the same army I served in. He and I are graduates of the same Rotc and university, although I was 14 years ahead of him, never knew him, don't' know him and did my four years active duty then cheerfully moved on to civilian life. I present these facts after refuting your post that said I "obviously have no military experience." So I'd be interested in your military experience. That's cause you sound more like a Russian effluent salesman than anything else. So you must have been a general over there. General Snowjob.
 
Godric1970 said:
America has tested the system firing Tomahawk cruise missiles ... so yeah America has broken the INF treaty ....
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Land based cruise missiles (not ship launched) have range limitations. The Russian Novator cruise missile is in INF range violation.

In addition, the Novator launcher will also accommodate the Iskander-M nuclear-capable cruise missile, another INF treaty violation.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Lol. He uses TASS. Owned by the Kremlin.
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:doh

Q. Do you believe that everything said on Tass is axiomatically untrue?


A. Yes, apparently you do, which really is the definition of dumb. Because even if you don't agree with your enemy, only a real fool would automatically dismiss everything they say out of hand, or not even bother reading it.


Small wonder that the US is often comprehensively outplayed diplomatically by Russia, and left looking very silly indeed.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Russia in ‘material breach’ of nuclear arms treaty: NATO statement

NATO-foreign-ministers.jpg

Foreign ministers pose for a photo during a meeting at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Belgium, 4 December 2018.



The US maintains, and rightly so, that Russia's land based Novator cruise missiles (and mobile launcher) are in violation of the 1987 INF Treaty. In addition, Russian nuclear-capable Iskander-M cruise missiles can also be fired from the Novator mobile launch vehicle which is another INF violation. Russia has been in material breach of the INF since 2010.


Russia Threatens to Target U.S. Allies If Trump Exits Treaty

BBNRnaF.img

Russian Novator cruise missile mobile system. Both the missile and launcher are in INF breach for different reasons.



What Putin is doing here is threatening European nations to put pressure on the US into accepting his INF Treaty violations.
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No surprise.
 
Godric1970 said:
you do realise when the western allies landed in Normandy ... the Soviets had entered eastern Prussia and into eastern Poland ... the timeline would have been the same ... the western allies only faced a fraction of the Nazi forces because the bulk of their forces were on the Eastern Front with the bulk of their elite units

revisionism is in full swing in American schools i see


i had to laugh a couple of months after the nazis surrendered the soviets invited UK and America to parade there latest tanks through the streets of Berlin it started off with the Brits with their Cromwell tanks (similar to the German Panzer 4 ausf F2) Patton was standing proud when the US M-26 Pershings started to parade and when it came to the soviets Patton started to panic with the distant rumble of steel tracks on concrete and turned to Zhukov and said remember we are on your side when he saw the Josef Stalin 3 tank
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What uninformed BS. Neither the US nor UK had to be invited by the Soviets to parade in Berlin. Both (along with the French) were full participants in the occupation of Berlin. The US 82 Airborne Division marched in on 4 July 1945 to establish the American Sector.
 
Westphalian said:
:doh

Q. Do you believe that everything said on Tass is axiomatically untrue?


A. Yes, apparently you do, which really is the definition of dumb. Because even if you don't agree with your enemy, only a real fool would automatically dismiss everything they say out of hand, or not even bother reading it.


Small wonder that the US is often comprehensively outplayed diplomatically by Russia, and left looking very silly indeed.
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I don't recall Russia ever diplomatically outplaying the US. The only support Russian finds is from other pariah/dictatorship nations.
 
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