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Macron wants European Army to protect against 'China, Russia, and even the USA'

Westphalian

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Looking to the future, France sees need for Europe to protect itself against the US, wants better relations with Russia.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46108633

President Macron has already warned that Europeans can no longer rely on the US to defend them, and he revived the theme on Tuesday, in response to President Donald Trump's decision to pull out of a 1987 nuclear treaty with Russia, banning medium-range ground-launched missiles.

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," he told French radio station Europe 1. "Who is the main victim? Europe and its security. I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."
 
So he wants them to be able to defend themselves “without relying on the United States”. Seems prudent. It isn’t like we can be counted on to live up to our end of treaties anyway.
 
Looking to the future, France sees need for Europe to protect itself against the US, wants better relations with Russia.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46108633

President Macron has already warned that Europeans can no longer rely on the US to defend them, and he revived the theme on Tuesday, in response to President Donald Trump's decision to pull out of a 1987 nuclear treaty with Russia, banning medium-range ground-launched missiles.

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," he told French radio station Europe 1. "Who is the main victim? Europe and its security. I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."


*sigh*...I'd hoped, probably naively, that we were past this. Two years ago I would have said we were. It's amazing how fragile peace truly is. Here's hoping that this isn't part of a "What lead to WW3" chapter in kids history books 100 years from now.
 
From the OP:

Russia's president will be among world leaders marking the Armistice in Paris.

What are they marking in regard to the “War to End All Wars?”

Trump is due to be there as well on 11NOV; wanna bet he tries to get his parade back on?
 
Looking to the future, France sees need for Europe to protect itself against the US, wants better relations with Russia.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46108633

President Macron has already warned that Europeans can no longer rely on the US to defend them, and he revived the theme on Tuesday, in response to President Donald Trump's decision to pull out of a 1987 nuclear treaty with Russia, banning medium-range ground-launched missiles.

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," he told French radio station Europe 1. "Who is the main victim? Europe and its security. I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."
America gets tired of carrying Europe after they long refuse requests to step up to the plate, and America is the asshole in this story...

NO.
 
The interesting point for me is that France is trying to lead Europe away from dependence on the US.

Hawkeye might moan that the US has to carry Europe, but the US probably much prefers a dependent Europe than one which is independent. How would the US like a Europe which refused to implement anti Russian sanctions, which maintained constructive relations with Russia? Creating and maintaining an empire costs a lot of money. Not having one has consequences of its own - like a reduced ability to coerce, threaten and cajole.
 
The interesting point for me is that France is trying to lead Europe away from dependence on the US.

Hawkeye might moan that the US has to carry Europe, but the US probably much prefers a dependent Europe than one which is independent. How would the US like a Europe which refused to implement anti Russian sanctions, which maintained constructive relations with Russia? Creating and maintaining an empire costs a lot of money. Not having one has consequences of its own - like a reduced ability to coerce, threaten and cajole.
America is in the process of failing as a SuperPower, we need to wind down our obligations in an orderly fashion.
 
Looking to the future, France sees need for Europe to protect itself against the US, wants better relations with Russia.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46108633

President Macron has already warned that Europeans can no longer rely on the US to defend them, and he revived the theme on Tuesday, in response to President Donald Trump's decision to pull out of a 1987 nuclear treaty with Russia, banning medium-range ground-launched missiles.

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," he told French radio station Europe 1. "Who is the main victim? Europe and its security. I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."

Rather dishonest Title
 
Looking to the future, France sees need for Europe to protect itself against the US, wants better relations with Russia.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46108633

President Macron has already warned that Europeans can no longer rely on the US to defend them, and he revived the theme on Tuesday, in response to President Donald Trump's decision to pull out of a 1987 nuclear treaty with Russia, banning medium-range ground-launched missiles.

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," he told French radio station Europe 1. "Who is the main victim? Europe and its security. I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."

About time they learned how to defend themselves.
 
America is in the process of failing as a SuperPower, we need to wind down our obligations in an orderly fashion.


Quite right Hawkeye, and apologies, I didn't realise you were a realist ......... but I sense that the deep state is fighting against the tide, trying to restore a recently gone US hegemony. What do you think?


This is such a dangerous period for the world. I look in horror at the insanity of blaming Russia and increasingly China too for the inability of the elite to maintain control of their own people. The Europeans no longer trust the US, but London will always follow Washington, Berlin is too mired in its own politics to support major change, and only France has a leader capable of thinking strategically.

So I doubt anything will happen, not yet. But Washington's control over everything is waning, and its old elite are busy trying to get control of the political system back from the outsider Trump.
 
About time they learned how to defend themselves.


Yes - but if they ever did develop that capability, they wouldn't take orders from Washington any more.


It's a trade off. What do you want? European subservience which you buy, or European independence?
 
America is in the process of failing as a SuperPower, we need to wind down our obligations in an orderly fashion.

Last one out, turn off the lights and lock up!
 
America gets tired of carrying Europe after they long refuse requests to step up to the plate, and America is the asshole in this story...

NO.



We both know its not about defending Europe anymore and we both know that the US will never give up its European bases.
 
Looking to the future, France sees need for Europe to protect itself against the US, wants better relations with Russia.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46108633

President Macron has already warned that Europeans can no longer rely on the US to defend them, and he revived the theme on Tuesday, in response to President Donald Trump's decision to pull out of a 1987 nuclear treaty with Russia, banning medium-range ground-launched missiles.

"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America," he told French radio station Europe 1. "Who is the main victim? Europe and its security. I want to build a real security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect, a European country - but we must have a Europe that can defend itself on its own without relying only on the United States."

I wish we could have foreseen that before June 6, 1944.

Plus, he's just pissed that the US stopped him from selling Russia the aircraft carriers.

Macron is a duplicitous prick - ironic that he complains about Trump being one as well.
 
Quite right Hawkeye, and apologies, I didn't realise you were a realist ......... but I sense that the deep state is fighting against the tide, trying to restore a recently gone US hegemony. What do you think?


This is such a dangerous period for the world. I look in horror at the insanity of blaming Russia and increasingly China too for the inability of the elite to maintain control of their own people. The Europeans no longer trust the US, but London will always follow Washington, Berlin is too mired in its own politics to support major change, and only France has a leader capable of thinking strategically.

So I doubt anything will happen, not yet. But Washington's control over everything is waning, and its old elite are busy trying to get control of the political system back from the outsider Trump.
Europe does not want to pay their own way now anymore than they have for the last twenty years we have been asking for better, and Europe has a boatload of problems to deal with, which they have been dealing with rather poorly...they will feed on the American supplied Gravy Train for as long as possible.

Everything in America is currently on hold to deal with the emergency of Trump, which is the latest excuse in a long line of excuses for not getting the work done. After Trump is gone we will get told what the next excuse is.
 
Watching Republicans willing to give up the hard-fought U.S. leadership position in the world, while they rant about Caravans being a threat and how they need more "freedom" from government is hilarious. Being a leader is hard...it's the weight of the crown sure, and everyone wants a piece of you...but you don't ****ing give it away because you want to go back and herd ****ing sheep...

How could it possibly be better of American safety, security, and trade, to be out of the leadership position? It's like Russia told Trump to promote nationalism so the U.S. would give up it's crown willingly...and everything thought he was crazy to even ask...and then low and behold, Republicans are all for it. They must get so drunk these past few years at how insanely wildly successful Trump has been at weakining the U.S., pissing themselves laughing.

Madness.
 
We both know its not about defending Europe anymore and we both know that the US will never give up its European bases.

When The New Chinese Empire is in a position to demand that we do, and then enforce the demand, then we will. However we will likely leave before that as the credit cards on the account of the kids/grandkid/unborn that we use to fund operations stop working.

REALITY
 
Yes - but if they ever did develop that capability, they wouldn't take orders from Washington any more.


It's a trade off. What do you want? European subservience which you buy, or European independence?

I don't want us to send our blood and resources to save their butts again. Since they have nukes now, that shouldn't be a problem.
 
I wish we could have foreseen that before June 6, 1944.

Plus, he's just pissed that the US stopped him from selling Russia the aircraft carriers.

Macron is a duplicitous prick - ironic that he complains about Trump being one as well.


Hollande was President at that time.
 
Watching Republicans willing to give up the hard-fought U.S. leadership position in the world, while they rant about Caravans being a threat and how they need more "freedom" from government is hilarious. Being a leader is hard...it's the weight of the crown sure, and everyone wants a piece of you...but you don't ****ing give it away because you want to go back and herd ****ing sheep...

How could it possibly be better of American safety, security, and trade, to be out of the leadership position? It's like Russia told Trump to promote nationalism so the U.S. would give up it's crown willingly...and everything thought he was crazy to even ask...and then low and behold, Republicans are all for it. They must get so drunk these past few years at how insanely wildly successful Trump has been at weakining the U.S., pissing themselves laughing.

Madness.


The Putin / Trump thing is ludicrous.


The world is changing as power seeps inexorably towards Asia / Pacific. The West no longer has military hegemony. The US, and Europe, are struggling to adjust to a new world order at the same time that their liberal economic globalism is encountering problems in their own populations.

My goodness, if Russia could influence only 1% of the things of which it is accused, we'd be happy.
 
Europe does not want to pay their own way now anymore than they have for the last twenty years we have been asking for better, and Europe has a boatload of problems to deal with, which they have been dealing with rather poorly...they will feed on the American supplied Gravy Train for as long as possible.

Everything in America is currently on hold to deal with the emergency of Trump, which is the latest excuse in a long line of excuses for not getting the work done. After Trump is gone we will get told what the next excuse is.


I agree with all of this.


Macron is isolated, and like virtually all western leaders, fairly unpopular with his own citizens. Nobody outside the European Commission aparatchiks support his idea.
 
The Putin / Trump thing is ludicrous.


The world is changing as power seeps inexorably towards Asia / Pacific. The West no longer has military hegemony. The US, and Europe, are struggling to adjust to a new world order at the same time that their liberal economic globalism is encountering problems in their own populations.

My goodness, if Russia could influence only 1% of the things of which it is accused, we'd be happy.

You lot are never happy. The weather sucks and the national drink is vodka and Vlad is stealing all your money.

Ваше здоровье! (To your health!) that is being robbed as well..........
 
The interesting point for me is that France is trying to lead Europe away from dependence on the US.

Hawkeye might moan that the US has to carry Europe, but the US probably much prefers a dependent Europe than one which is independent. How would the US like a Europe which refused to implement anti Russian sanctions, which maintained constructive relations with Russia? Creating and maintaining an empire costs a lot of money. Not having one has consequences of its own - like a reduced ability to coerce, threaten and cajole.

France did such a fine job in 1940...
 
The Putin / Trump thing is ludicrous.The world is changing as power seeps inexorably towards Asia / Pacific. The West no longer has military hegemony. The US, and Europe, are struggling to adjust to a new world order at the same time that their liberal economic globalism is encountering problems in their own populations. My goodness, if Russia could influence only 1% of the things of which it is accused, we'd be happy.

I don't buy it one bit. What we've seen on the world stage from Trump with regards to Putin, is not gradual as part of some change in global power, it's Trump.
It's not even some big nefarious plot of Russia...Putin has always been this way, it's just that usually it doesn't get met with such incredible success. Trump loves him, wanted Trump tower Russia, gets all his loans due to Russian money as far as we know or don't know. Trump's appeasement of Putin on the world stage was not some subtle or ludicrous characterization, it happened, it was real, it was bat-****-crazy. We suspect why, Trump is a disaster, likely compromised before taking office, almost definitely compromised once in office, he's a train wreck.
Trump trying to bring back nationalism as being sane, is just a political gambit. Its' the people around him that are helping him stay in power and who he believes can deliver the votes. It's hopefully a flash in the pan in the big scheme of things. Again, even if it is the new norm, it's a CONSCIOUSNESS CHOCIE to cede that power, as a result of the stupid belief that ignoring the rest of the world, is a good thing for the U.S. short and long-term.

I think the U.S. will recover a lot of it post Trump, at a high cost to the American people.

I want Ukraine and Russia to be less corrupt, so I can do business with them. I would invest in Russia/Ukraine, I would love to have my primary work staff there. We're waiting for reform 2.0 in Russia, that's for sure.
 
I wish we could have foreseen that before June 6, 1944.

Plus, he's just pissed that the US stopped him from selling Russia the aircraft carriers.

Macron is a duplicitous prick - ironic that he complains about Trump being one as well.

The Mistrals are helicopter carriers and Macron was not in government when the decision not to sell was made in 2014 (just left a couple of months before)
 
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