Britain beyond Brexit: The quest to remake British politics

The use of an oxymoron such as

Westphalian said:

~............................... liberal nazis.....................................~

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says everything that need be said about you and fortunately you've saved everybody else the trouble.

Westphalian said:

~ It's facile and infantile to pretend that all would have been well had there been no referendum, and even more facile to now pretend that having another referendum would make all the issues go away ~

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Funny that the issues could have been solved if the UK had used rules the EU had in place. It's not the EU's fault at you suggested in your first post on this thread but it was the fault of several UK governments not to utilise existing rules so as to deal with the immigration issues that drove the election result.

Infinite Chaos said:

Funny that the issues could have been solved if the UK had used rules the EU had in place. It's not the EU's fault at you suggested in your first post on this thread but it was the fault of several UK governments not to utilise existing rules so as to deal with the immigration issues that drove the election result.

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You're talking to a Putinist propagandist whose only interest lies in heaping feces onto anything European in general and anything pertaining to a(ny) European country in particular.

Main objective being to sow dissent in the interest of his Kremlin masters, no matter how much distortion of reality that takes.

Actual facts being simply a hindrance.

Infinite Chaos said:

Funny that the issues could have been solved if the UK had used rules the EU had in place. It's not the EU's fault at you suggested in your first post on this thread but it was the fault of several UK governments not to utilise existing rules so as to deal with the immigration issues that drove the election result.

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I agree with you to an extent. UK governments have encouraged all immigration for decades.

But the anti EU sentiment is not just about immigration. It's also about taking back control, about listening to the people who are not listened to.

Remoaners still don't listen and neither does the EU.

Westphalian said:

~ It's also about taking back control, about listening to the people who are not listened to

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Taking back control of what exactly? How did the EU take control of sovereign British affairs anyway?

Westphalian said:

~ Remoaners still don't listen and neither does the EU.

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Think you'll find the EU listened pretty well, they just didn't counter the lies spread about it.

Westphalian said:

:lamo:lamo

What color is the sky in your world?

The UK will do very nicely outside the EU, and Brussels knows it. Europe is a stagnant, bureaucratic, low growth continent with massive social and political problems of its own making.

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One of the noted Brexiteers (and currency speculator) has assured us that Britain will be back in profit in only FIFTY YEARs or so. I won't live to see it, and neither will most of the Leave voters.

Westphalian said:

:lamo:lamo

What color is the sky in your world?

The UK will do very nicely outside the EU, and Brussels knows it. Europe is a stagnant, bureaucratic, low growth continent with massive social and political problems of its own making.

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The UK does not have much to offer the world when it come to international trade. It has to import raw materials if it wants to become a industrial power like Japan or South Korea. Yet without a trade agreement with the EU, it does not have a good market for those goods (The US is not going to give the UK preferential market access like it did to Japan or SK). In tech (electronic) it will have to compete with the US, and all of east asia. It will not have the market access that the US or Asian based companies will. It could do well in medical technology as it does have some strong companies in that field. In the financial arena, outside of the EU, and becoming more hostile to Russian billionaires, it will become less important as a financial hub then it currently is.

The overall problem is that the UK does not offer anything to the world outside of the EU, that other countries already produce in good volumes at prices lower than what the UK can produce. It wont be able to go to the commonwealth and seek leadership of that group for trading benefits. China and the US have taken that mantle.

If the worry before was about becoming Germany's female dog, the UK at least had a say in the rule makings in the EU. The UK if chooses a hard exit, will end up being the US's female dog, with no say about the rule making

Brexit is not only about £s.

It's about taking back control and about democracy.

Remain people have never grasped this, they have no answers to it, they simply obsess about how it will impact their own opportunities.

At root, and it's a tough message, they are impotent. There's nothing more nauseating than watching the well off, the middle class, the various London elites, bang on about money and how much money they'll lose, to those who have little except their community, patriotism and sense of right and wrong. Those who have been ignored (and now insulted as thick or stupid Leave voters) by that elite for 40 years are not listening.

Who can blame them?

Westphalian said:

Brexit is not only about £s.

It's about taking back control and about democracy.

Remain people have never grasped this, they have no answers to it, they simply obsess about how it will impact their own opportunities.

At root, and it's a tough message, they are impotent. There's nothing more nauseating than watching the well off, the middle class, the various London elites, bang on about money and how much money they'll lose, to those who have little except their community, patriotism and sense of right and wrong. Those who have been ignored (and now insulted as thick or stupid Leave voters) by that elite for 40 years are not listening.

Who can blame them?

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Then it fails in both respects. Not only will the UK be worse off economically, by leaving the EU it allows the British government to do all kinds of shady anti-democracy stuff and trample on peoples rights and freedoms as they already try to do.

Westphalian said:

Brexit is not only about £s.

It's about taking back control and about democracy.

Remain people have never grasped this, they have no answers to it, they simply obsess about how it will impact their own opportunities.

At root, and it's a tough message, they are impotent. There's nothing more nauseating than watching the well off, the middle class, the various London elites, bang on about money and how much money they'll lose, to those who have little except their community, patriotism and sense of right and wrong. Those who have been ignored (and now insulted as thick or stupid Leave voters) by that elite for 40 years are not listening.

Who can blame them?

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Since you haven't answered Chagos I'll ask again, who is going to be taking back control and of what?

Taking back control of your own community would involve a radical restructuring of local government, good luck with leaving the EU facilitating that.

Taking back control of your patriotism would require a lot of the English to learn the differences between England, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. One of cokehead Boris's latest soundbites was 'the Great British Brexit', perhaps in Westphalia you fail to see the problem there.

Taking back control of their democracy ... in a hereditary monarchy with no written constitution ... lol.

Brexit's all fine and dandy conceptually - but what we're getting is 21st century vs Ruritania, with Theresa May as an elderly myxomatosized tortoise going slowly round in circles on the palace croquet lawn while a high-stakes match is in progress.

Westphalian said:

Brexit is not only about £s.

It's about taking back control and about democracy.

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What control? What exactly does Brexit people want to take back of power from Brussels? The UK had massive influence on all aspects of EU regulations and law and in most cases the UK was already compliant..

Let me guess.. it is the border thing right? Answer this then... why does the UK not use existing EU law to limit EU migration?

As for democracy... please the EU is far more democratic than the UK. All decision makers in the EU are elected officials.. can't say that of the UK.

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Westphalian said:

Brexit is not only about £s.

It's about taking back control and about democracy.

Remain people have never grasped this, they have no answers to it, they simply obsess about how it will impact their own opportunities.

At root, and it's a tough message, they are impotent. There's nothing more nauseating than watching the well off, the middle class, the various London elites, bang on about money and how much money they'll lose, to those who have little except their community, patriotism and sense of right and wrong. Those who have been ignored (and now insulted as thick or stupid Leave voters) by that elite for 40 years are not listening.

Who can blame them?

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Brexit is about stirring up xenopobia and dustrust. Brexiteers have only bluster. All the econimic arguments favour staying. Where's the taking back control in stepping off a cruise liner into a leaky lifeboat with no sail and broken oars?

Westphalian said:

Brexit is not only about £s.

It's about taking back control and about democracy.

Remain people have never grasped this, they have no answers to it, they simply obsess about how it will impact their own opportunities.

At root, and it's a tough message, they are impotent. There's nothing more nauseating than watching the well off, the middle class, the various London elites, bang on about money and how much money they'll lose, to those who have little except their community, patriotism and sense of right and wrong. Those who have been ignored (and now insulted as thick or stupid Leave voters) by that elite for 40 years are not listening.

Who can blame them?

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Leaving the EU leaves the UK (or should I say England, since the Celtic fringe will all opt to rejoin the EU) a tiny lifeboat in a stormy ocean with a stick for oars, and no sail. There's precious little control in that. As for democracy, the leave vote was rigged, and though MP's are being offered vote after vote, the people are denied another.