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US warns Russia over interference in Macedonia referendum on changing name and joining Nato

Rogue Valley

Rogue Valley

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US warns Russia over interference in Macedonia referendum on changing name and joining Nato

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The US defense secretary has condemned Russian attempts to meddle in a referendum in Macedonia on changing its name. James Mattis, who arrived in Macedonia on Monday, said there was “no doubt” Moscow had been funding pro-Russian groups in order to defeat the referendum. “No doubt they have transferred money and they’re also conducting broader influence campaigns,” Mr Mattis said. “We ought to leave the Macedonian people to make up their own minds.” Macedonians will vote on 30 September on the government’s deal with Greece to change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia, which could lead to the Balkan country joining Nato and the EU. Russia has already been caught out trying to influence the vote. In July, Greece expelled two Russian diplomats who were accused of supplying funds to protest groups opposing the name change deal. It also barred two other people from entering the country for trying to bribe officials.
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As always, Moscow is interfering in the internal affairs of a European nation.

Related: Mattis condemns Russian influence-peddling in Macedonia

Trump Administration Slams Russia for Trying to Stop Macedonia From Joining NATO
 
:lamo:lamo

Said Mattis as he arrived in Macedonia, following in the footsteps of a whole host of western dignitories.

The sheer hypocrisy of it all is mind numbing.
 
Rogue Valley said:
US warns Russia over interference in Macedonia referendum on changing name and joining Nato

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As always, Moscow is interfering in the internal affairs of a European nation.

Related: Mattis condemns Russian influence-peddling in Macedonia

Trump Administration Slams Russia for Trying to Stop Macedonia From Joining NATO
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The Threat of Kleptocracy: States Bordering the Russian Federation

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what Kremlin thugs will do here, they will kill (poison like they love to do) somebody from Albanian community on the referendum day ...
 
Westphalian said:
in the footsteps of a whole host of western dignitories.
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It's spelled dignitaries.

Macedonia is a Western nation and intends to join NATO.

Very few nations want the Muscovite boot on their neck.
 
I'm waiting when coward Putin warns USA over interference in businesses of all other countries
 
Rogue Valley said:
You keep waiting hero.
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Therefore Russia badly needs an other president and an other political system where all thieves and corrupted officials go to prison instead seating in Kremlin
 
Well the Macedonian name-change referendum was a bust for the "Yes" side as there was insufficient voter turnout to make it a legally binding plebiscite on the Macedonian Government. The West has accused Russia with meddling in Macedonian internal affairs and there is some truth in those accusations. However the West has also interfered both overtly and covertly and seems to have been beaten at their own game in this small Balkan state.

Mattis’s attempt to bolster the yes vote, backed by $8m in US congressional funding, were complemented by visits by Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, Jens Stoltenberg, the Nato secretary general, and Federica Mogherini, the EU’s foreign policy chief. Britain’s Foreign Office reportedly provided referendum funds.

All sought to assure Macedonians their future security and prosperity were best served by closer integration with the west. But they were out-thought, outspent and outmanoeuvred by Moscow.
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From:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...onia-referendum-is-another-victory-for-russia

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Putin will send Trump a nice letter, Trump will proclaim his love for Putin, and all will be good and forgiven.
 
Evilroddy said:
Well the Macedonian name-change referendum was a bust for the "Yes" side as there was insufficient voter turnout to make it a legally binding plebiscite on the Macedonian Government. The West has accused Russia with meddling in Macedonian internal affairs and there is some truth in those accusations. However the West has also interfered both overtly and covertly and seems to have been beaten at their own game in this small Balkan state.



From:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...onia-referendum-is-another-victory-for-russia

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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The Guardian, with no sense of irony or awareness, lists the amount of western funding and high profile visits urging Macedonia to vote 'Yes' whilst complaining about alleged Russian interference :roll:.

Did Lavrov, or Putin, or any other representative high ranking in the Moscow government, turn up in Skopje urging a boycott or 'no' vote?


Answer : No.
 
Westphalian said:
The Guardian, with no sense of irony or awareness, lists the amount of western funding and high profile visits urging Macedonia to vote 'Yes' whilst complaining about alleged Russian interference :roll:.

Did Lavrov, or Putin, or any other representative high ranking in the Moscow government, turn up in Skopje urging a boycott or 'no' vote?


Answer : No.
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Did Lavrov, or Putin, or any other representative high ranking in the Moscow government, turn up in Skopje urging a boycott or 'no' vote?
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none of them turned up in Salisbury either.

So what?

Your feeble attempts at denial are getting more and more pathetic by the minute.
 
Of course, the referendum will be ignored (this is Europe after all) and the elite will pursue a path of trying to join the EU and NATO.

There's money in it for them, a chance to drink at the trough.

Few things in life are as certain as the messianic zeal with which the elite will follow the path of the NWO and ignore the people.
 
Westphalian said:
The Guardian, with no sense of irony or awareness, lists the amount of western funding and high profile visits urging Macedonia to vote 'Yes' whilst complaining about alleged Russian interference :roll:.

Did Lavrov, or Putin, or any other representative high ranking in the Moscow government, turn up in Skopje urging a boycott or 'no' vote?

Answer : No.
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Westphalian:

The Guardian is reporting the news rather than editorialising. It dutifully reported both the Russian interference and the Western interference without trying to skew the reportage in favour of one camp or the other. Did Lavrov or Putin visit and directly pressure Macedonians? No, they didn't but they spent an estimated 5-6 million dollars in influencing the referendum and in encouraging people and organizations to boycott it by not voting. The Western powers also meddled in the referendum spending even more money and using high profile personalities to try to motivate Macedonians to vote and to sway their votes to the "Yes" side. Both foreign groups ignored Macedonian sovereignty and both sides meddled and that's what the Guardian article reported.

So a pox on both houses is the only honest conclusion a sensible observer can draw from this derailment of the democratic process in Macedonia by all outside powers.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Westphalian said:
Of course, the referendum will be ignored (this is Europe after all) and the elite will pursue a path of trying to join the EU and NATO.

There's money in it for them, a chance to drink at the trough.

Few things in life are as certain as the messianic zeal with which the elite will follow the path of the NWO and ignore the people.
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silly assessment as is your habit.

I drew up figures in another thread some time ago which showed that even the poorest in the EU (Bulgaria) is better off in EU membership than it was before. With any serious poster I'd even bother to look for a link if asked, with you I won't.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
Putin will send Trump a nice letter, Trump will proclaim his love for Putin, and all will be good and forgiven.
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senx God, Trump is a democratic president not a czar as wants to be ...someone like vova putler
 
they won, the traitors and ugly mongols lost

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Evilroddy said:
Westphalian:

The Guardian is reporting the news rather than editorialising. It dutifully reported both the Russian interference and the Western interference without trying to skew the reportage in favour of one camp or the other. Did Lavrov or Putin visit and directly pressure Macedonians? No, they didn't but they spent an estimated 5-6 million dollars in influencing the referendum and in encouraging people and organizations to boycott it by not voting. The Western powers also meddled in the referendum spending even more money and using high profile personalities to try to motivate Macedonians to vote and to sway their votes to the "Yes" side. Both foreign groups ignored Macedonian sovereignty and both sides meddled and that's what the Guardian article reported.

So a pox on both houses is the only honest conclusion a sensible observer can draw from this derailment of the democratic process in Macedonia by all outside powers.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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That argument is fair only is the Guardian article had recognised at any point that the US and West had attempted to influence the election.


There was no explicit recognition of this at all, at any point. It was all about how Russia had attempted to do so, and ironically in a far lesser way than the West.
 
Westphalian said:
That argument is fair only is the Guardian article had recognised at any point that the US and West had attempted to influence the election.


There was no explicit recognition of this at all, at any point. It was all about how Russia had attempted to do so, and ironically in a far lesser way than the West.
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Westphalian:

Please re-read the quoted paragraphs in post # 9 of this thread for the explicit statement of Mattis and others interfering and the 8 million spent by the USA. Britain also bank rolled the voting drive and "Yes" vote. All in black and white in the quoted snippet.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Evilroddy said:
Westphalian:

Please re-read the quoted paragraphs in post # 9 of this thread for the explicit statement of Mattis and others interfering and the 8 million spent by the USA. Britain also bank rolled the voting drive and "Yes" vote. All in black and white in the quoted snippet.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Yes, I acknowledge that.

But the whole article is about 'Russian interference'. There is no suggestion that the West has interfered at all. It's as if the obvious western interference is completely irrelevant, or more likely, is regarded as a natural birthright and so not 'interference' just a little benign encouragement to help Macedonia on its rightful path to sweetness and light.
 
UN chief urges Macedonia to proceed with name change

10/3/18
UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres has urged the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to proceed with the name change it has agreed on with Greece. Greece’s objection to its neighbour’s use of “Republic of Macedonia” as its official name has stalled the former Yugoslav republic’s ambition for membership in the European Union and North Atlantic Treaty Organization, Xinhua reported. The two countries reached an agreement in June 2018 that Macedonia would use the name of “Republic of North Macedonia”. The name change received overwhelming support in Sunday’s referendum in Macedonia. But the low voter turnout of about one third undermined its credibility.
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The Macedonians that voted spoke in the affirmative. The people of Macedonia (in all of its name guises) overwhelmingly support both EU and NATO membership.

The referendum here strictly deals with the nations name and not its orientation/integration.
 
Rogue Valley said:
UN chief urges Macedonia to proceed with name change



The Macedonians that voted spoke in the affirmative. The people of Macedonia (in all of its name guises) overwhelmingly support both EU and NATO membership.

The referendum here strictly deals with the nations name and not its orientation/integration.
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Rogue Valley:

So if pro-Western factions in Macedonia can't win a plebiscite-based political mandate to change the name of the country under rules they themselves agreed to, then they should ignore their loss, retroactively change the rules and do it anyway? How democratic!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Rogue Valley:

So if pro-Western factions in Macedonia can't win a plebiscite-based political mandate to change the name of the country under rules they themselves agreed to, then they should ignore their loss, retroactively change the rules and do it anyway? How democratic!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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I didn't know the UN Secretary General was pro-Western.

Can you enlighten us?
 
Rogue Valley said:
I didn't know the UN Secretary General was pro-Western.

Can you enlighten us?
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Antonio Gutierrez was one of the negotiators instrumental in bringing Portugal into the EU in the late 1970's IIRC. That goes to Mr. Gutirrez's pro-Western and Pro-EU pedigree and his explicit support for Western values as embodied by the EU.

As Secretary General of the UN he should be supporting democracy and remaining neutral in Macedonian domestic affairs rather than advising some Macedonian politicians to circumvent their electoral failure to get a quorum and resulting political mandate in the plebiscite to change the country's name. It is time for more consultation and persuasion to make democracy work and Sec. Gen. Gutierrez should be advising for the building of Macedonian consensus for the name change rather than taking an anti-democratic route which encourages the government to circumvent the rules and intent of the referendum process which they agreed to follow. Macedonia can wait a decade or two until a majority of the electorate supports a mandate to change the name. 90% of a voter turn-out of just 36% of the electorate was not a quorum for the referendum result to pass which required at least 50% turn-out to be legitimate and binding.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Westphalian:

The Guardian is reporting the news rather than editorialising. It dutifully reported both the Russian interference and the Western interference without trying to skew the reportage in favour of one camp or the other. Did Lavrov or Putin visit and directly pressure Macedonians? No, they didn't but they spent an estimated 5-6 million dollars in influencing the referendum and in encouraging people and organizations to boycott it by not voting. The Western powers also meddled in the referendum spending even more money and using high profile personalities to try to motivate Macedonians to vote and to sway their votes to the "Yes" side. Both foreign groups ignored Macedonian sovereignty and both sides meddled and that's what the Guardian article reported.

So a pox on both houses is the only honest conclusion a sensible observer can draw from this derailment of the democratic process in Macedonia by all outside powers.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Evilroddy said:
Westphalian:

Please re-read the quoted paragraphs in post # 9 of this thread for the explicit statement of Mattis and others interfering and the 8 million spent by the USA. Britain also bank rolled the voting drive and "Yes" vote. All in black and white in the quoted snippet.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Hi Evil -- may I call you Evil?

Voters are of course free to boycott any official vote at any time concerning anything. Russia wanted a boycott, the West did not want a boycott. So it can be said the benefit and the gain of the boycott went to Russia as it was pursued. Evil Russia. The Kleptocracy.

Putin has been president or prime minister since January 1, 2000 and Lavrov has been foreign minister since 2004. Trump said he likes that Xi Jinpingpong declared himself emperor for life. Of the three only Trump is the odd man out, i.e., he will not see the light of day in his expressed admirations of the whole of it. SecDef Jim Mattis stands in contrast to and head and shoulders above 'em all.

It's really so very simple Evil. Again, if I may call you Evil for short. (If not that's fine too thx.) We're the good guys and they're the bad guyz. Once someone sees the light on the reality of it then it's just not complicated at all.
 
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