• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine Rebuilds Its Military Muscle

Rogue Valley

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
94,136
Reaction score
82,405
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Ukraine Rebuilds Its Military Muscle to Repel a Russian Invasion

630_360_1534958843-5406.jpeg

President Petro Poroshenko and troops on Independence Day. 24 August 2018.

KYIV, Ukraine—For the past four and a half years, Ukraine’s military has prioritized rebuilding land warfare units to meet the immediate needs of the ongoing war in the country’s embattled, eastern Donbas region. This year, however, Ukraine has stepped up efforts to rebuild its air force and navy, too. This emphasis reflects a national security doctrine that singles out a Russian invasion as the top, long-term national security threat, while also keeping an eye toward improving interoperability with NATO forces.
Click to expand...

Article sheds some light on how Ukraine has changed from an ill-equipped and token force of 6,000 soldiers when Russia invaded in the spring of 2014 to a much better equipped NATO-trained force of 250,000 today.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Ukraine Rebuilds Its Military Muscle to Repel a Russian Invasion

630_360_1534958843-5406.jpeg

President Petro Poroshenko and troops on Independence Day. 24 August 2018.



Article sheds some light on how Ukraine has changed from an ill-equipped and token force of 6,000 soldiers when Russia invaded in the spring of 2014 to a much better equipped NATO-trained force of 250,000 today.
Click to expand...

Rogue Valley:

Given the declaration quoted below by Bielieskov, it would seem that Ukraine and Russia are on a collision course to total war at some point soon.

Ukraine is preparing itself for a full-scale war with Russia,” Bielieskov said. “And there is no other choice, because Russia is creating new combat units and moving existing land armies near its border with Ukraine.”

Ukraine has also declared its intentions to join NATO ultimately, touting the Western alliance’s collective security pledge as a deterrent against Russian aggression. To that end, adopting NATO standards by the year 2020 is a top priority for Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.
Click to expand...

NATO would be mad to ammend its rules and allow Ukraine to join the alliance with an ongoing Ukrainian-Russian border dispute still unresolved. That could lead very quickly to a Russia-NATO conflict in Eastern Europe which would devastate the East and would likely escalate to regional or global thermonuclear war.

This will not be a replay of the 1945-1949 civil war in the USSR between Soviet and Ukrainian forces. It will be more like what the Soviets did in Ukraine to the Axis forces there in 1944 and 1945 in terms of the complete devastation wrought and the death tolls mounted. Add to that the possibility of Russian use of tactical nuclear weapons on Ukrainian battlefields and the potential horror of a Russo-Ukrainian Total War in the next few years becomes that much greater.

This potential war is an existential threat to all of Europe. Thus it is necessary that third-party states get involved now to very strongly motivate both Ukraine and Russia to negotiate a peaceful settlement to this mess bilaterally, before the conflict snow-balls past a tipping point to total war.

This will soon become an unmanageable crisis and then the slaughter will escalate asymptotically.

Fears.
Evilroddy.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Ukraine Rebuilds Its Military Muscle to Repel a Russian Invasion

630_360_1534958843-5406.jpeg

President Petro Poroshenko and troops on Independence Day. 24 August 2018.



Article sheds some light on how Ukraine has changed from an ill-equipped and token force of 6,000 soldiers when Russia invaded in the spring of 2014 to a much better equipped NATO-trained force of 250,000 today.
Click to expand...

When I was on Exercise Noble Partner in Georgia back in August, we were co-located with a contingent of Ukrainian Marines (along with other NATO allies including a battalion from UK The Rifles, Gurkhas, and some Germans). They were ****ing badass. Probably just arrived in Georgia from kicking ass in a trench the week before lol.
 
Evilroddy said:
Rogue Valley:

Given the declaration quoted below by Bielieskov, it would seem that Ukraine and Russia are on a collision course to total war at some point soon.



NATO would be mad to ammend its rules and allow Ukraine to join the alliance with an ongoing Ukrainian-Russian border dispute still unresolved. That could lead very quickly to a Russia-NATO conflict in Eastern Europe which would devastate the East and would likely escalate to regional or global thermonuclear war.

This will not be a replay of the 1945-1949 civil war in the USSR between Soviet and Ukrainian forces. It will be more like what the Soviets did in Ukraine to the Axis forces there in 1944 and 1945 in terms of the complete devastation wrought and the death tolls mounted. Add to that the possibility of Russian use of tactical nuclear weapons on Ukrainian battlefields and the potential horror of a Russo-Ukrainian Total War in the next few years becomes that much greater.

This potential war is an existential threat to all of Europe. Thus it is necessary that third-party states get involved now to very strongly motivate both Ukraine and Russia to negotiate a peaceful settlement to this mess bilaterally, before the conflict snow-balls past a tipping point to total war.

This will soon become an unmanageable crisis and then the slaughter will escalate asymptotically.

Fears.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Ukraine won't be joining NATO anytime soon. Nevertheless, the Russian threat is increasing rather than decreasing.

Recent history - 2014-2018 - tells Kyiv that Russia will indeed employ kinetic warfare to prevent Ukraine from joining the European community.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Ukraine won't be joining NATO anytime soon. Nevertheless, the Russian threat is increasing rather than decreasing.

Recent history - 2014-2018 - tells Kyiv that Russia will indeed employ kinetic warfare to prevent Ukraine from joining the European community.
Click to expand...



Wrong.


We don't care that much about Ukraine joining the EU. It would be fun watching the EU try to swallow a populous state run by oligarchs, with its extreme nationalists and paramilitary forces. They wouldn't take too long to tire of diktat by Brussels and then the fun would start ;).


NATO is a different matter. Unacceptable.


PS Evilroddy is right in his sentiments about NATO. The US and even less Europe won't lift a finger to help Ukraine engage Russia directly. People like you are leading it down a garden path to its total destruction.
 
Rogue Valley said:
You're consumed by it. The EEU doesn't work without Ukraine's 45 million and its wealth.
Click to expand...
Ukraine can't even pay it's bills... that's why we are in this mess in the first place and you claim they have wealth and enough to arm a massive military????

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
 
Send the Ukranians some Apache helicopters with high-tech armaments. Throw in training for free.
 
PeteEU said:
Ukraine can't even pay it's bills... that's why we are in this mess in the first place and you claim they have wealth and enough to arm a massive military????

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
Click to expand...

We? You got a frog in your pocket again?
 
PeteEU said:
Ukraine can't even pay it's bills... that's why we are in this mess in the first place and you claim they have wealth and enough to arm a massive military????

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I would have to think you gave the best answer, people scream russia is going to fail any second, but they are an absolute giant compared to ukraine militarily and economically, while ukraine can not pay it's bills and is screwing itself over trying to block russia at every turn which is their biggest trade partner. Ukraine has a bigger army now, but it needs to be 5 times larger to match the russian active duty size, needs to have it's equipment running, and oh yeah needs an actual navy, their navy and air force was so bad russia turned over everything they siezed in crimea because it was so ill maintained it was pretty much useless.


They have plenty of soviet gear they can use but most of it is non functioning, sitting in storage and they would need to bring it back up to standard. They are going to be in trouble if they keep pushing for american gear, as they could not keep the mosr reliable rugged and cheap antique soviet gear running, yet they want vastly more expensive gear that requires far more upkeep. Cost of upkeep is a big cost in worldwide militaries, this is why the middle east likes older soviet gear like mig 21's and t-72's, because they can run them for decades with piss poor maintenance, however ukraine can't even manage to upkeep it's equipment at the rate of a third world nation.
 
Roadvirus said:
Send the Ukranians some Apache helicopters with high-tech armaments. Throw in training for free.
Click to expand...

Why so they can fall from the sky 5 months from now when they think phase maintenance at 100 flight hours is a light suggestion rather than mandatory to keep them in full functioning order.
 
I've long maintained that the US position is that it will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian but no further.

RV's comments back this up. Washington loves to encourage Ukraine to re-militarise with expensive US systems, it's happy to throw in some training and Javelins, and infra red night vision sighters. It's determined to keep Ukraine on its hostile Russophobic course, it sends diplomats to Kiev so Poroshenko can raise his self important profile and show some 'results' or 'promise' to his citizens.

But who benefits? I think we know the answer. Ukraine will never be able to simultaneously be hostile to Russia and neutralise Russian threats. That policy is literally a road to ruin if not death. But for the US it's a great policy, wrapped up in moralistic platitudes about plucky little Ukraine fighting for its integrity.

Just as the US followed the same policy and encouragement for plucky little Georgia, but backed well away when the brief war started in 2008.

Those who eulogise over Ukraine wasting money on trying to match up to Russia militarily show a callous and cynical dis-regard for the effects of such a policy on Ukrainians. If you love Ukraine so much, how about Uncle Sam footing the bill entirely? Or is the cost of your own global empire already cripplingly high?
 
PeteEU said:
Ukraine can't even pay it's bills... that's why we are in this mess in the first place and you claim they have wealth and enough to arm a massive military????

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
Click to expand...

LOL, without Ukrainian steal balls you´d fight a war with Muscovite hordes in Poland already

buryat1.jpg

CJ1BozaUcAA-VXN.jpg
 
beerftw said:
Why so they can fall from the sky 5 months from now when they think phase maintenance at 100 flight hours is a light suggestion rather than mandatory to keep them in full functioning order.
Click to expand...

Geezus lol. This isn't 2014. The UA is trained by NATO advisers these days.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Ukraine Rebuilds Its Military Muscle to Repel a Russian Invasion

630_360_1534958843-5406.jpeg

President Petro Poroshenko and troops on Independence Day. 24 August 2018.



Article sheds some light on how Ukraine has changed from an ill-equipped and token force of 6,000 soldiers when Russia invaded in the spring of 2014 to a much better equipped NATO-trained force of 250,000 today.
Click to expand...

Obama proved the Ukrainians could not count on America for support so the Ukrainians are now doing what they have to. I support this move on their part.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Geezus lol. This isn't 2014. The UA is trained by NATO advisers these days.
Click to expand...

Yeah but ukraine still can not keep going antique soviet gear, so how are they going to pay for something that may cost multiple times more? From what it looks like now they are probably going to take the arab approach, buy it and use it until it fails with little or no maintenance, then go back to a skeleton crew of antique soviet equipment that it can barely afford to keep running.


I have said many times before if they want to arm up they have a metric ****ton of old soviet gear that is disabled, and some nato countries are former soviet countries or their puppet states, and still have parts available, which is better for them than buying overpriced stuff they can not afford in the first place, especially since they are fighting rebels with leftovers russia does not want.
 
Having receiving US - nukes Ukraine will start WWIII and the world as we know will die
 
Westphalian said:
Do they pay the bills too?
Click to expand...

In 1 maximal 2 years Ukraine receive US nukes and launches WWIII against Russia.
It is possible due to cowardice and stupidity of Putin and its gang of thieves-oligarchs
 
Alfons said:
In 1 maximal 2 years Ukraine receive US nukes and launches WWIII against Russia.
It is possible due to cowardice and stupidity of Putin and its gang of thieves-oligarchs
Click to expand...

Even the US won't give Ukraine nuclear weapons, not just because that's totally illegal under NNPT (the US doesn't give a blade of grass for legalities), but because their European allies would be incredibly concerned.

I come back to geography, which so many people simply don't understand. The US would quite like to see a war between Russia and Ukriane, and if it involved a nuclear exchange then so much the better. So yes, giving Ukraine nuclear weapons would be attractive (see also Evilroddy's suggestion in the Ukriane thread). A war weakens Russia and Europe in general, and strengthens the US. That's really good news for the US.

But it's bad news for the US allies who happen to live near the battlefield. Because radioactivity would impact Europe, because instability and war would kill stock markets and cause recession, and because nobody knows what else would happen in the way of escalation or other adverse consequences. War with Russia is just very bad news for Europe even if contained in Ukraine or western Russia.

That's a factor of geography, and it's why Europeans don't really like or trust the US - even those who willingly bend over at Uncle's every request (except in London where they are genuinely crazy mad too, but they don't really regard themselves as European in any case).

So the only constraint on creating a war in Europe is the US's European allies.
 
Westphalian said:
Even the US won't give Ukraine nuclear weapons, not just because that's totally illegal under NNPT (the US doesn't give a blade of grass for legalities), but because their European allies would be incredibly concerned.

I come back to geography, which so many people simply don't understand. The US would quite like to see a war between Russia and Ukriane, and if it involved a nuclear exchange then so much the better. So yes, giving Ukraine nuclear weapons would be attractive (see also Evilroddy's suggestion in the Ukriane thread). A war weakens Russia and Europe in general, and strengthens the US. That's really good news for the US.

But it's bad news for the US allies who happen to live near the battlefield. Because radioactivity would impact Europe, because instability and war would kill stock markets and cause recession, and because nobody knows what else would happen in the way of escalation or other adverse consequences. War with Russia is just very bad news for Europe even if contained in Ukraine or western Russia.

That's a factor of geography, and it's why Europeans don't really like or trust the US - even those who willingly bend over at Uncle's every request (except in London where they are genuinely crazy mad too, but they don't really regard themselves as European in any case).

So the only constraint on creating a war in Europe is the US's European allies.
Click to expand...

The entirely EU 'leaders' are not more as toilet paper for Washington which badly needs WWIII against Russia due to own huge problems.
 
Alfons said:
The entirely EU 'leaders' are not more as toilet paper for Washington which badly needs WWIII against Russia due to own huge problems.
Click to expand...

US problems pale in comparison to the petro-state run by the siloviki.
 
Rogue Valley said:
US problems pale in comparison to the petro-state run by the siloviki.
Click to expand...

They really don't.

This needs its own thread, but the US runs a global empire, which is a hugely costly and intensive exercise. The problem is that the West no longer offers the world any inspiration. Even some of its own propagandists conclude that the West has now reached a 'post modern' phase.

But if the West is now post modern, having reached the supreme end point of its modernisation, it still seems beset with problems - poverty, inequality, racial strife, mass migration, unemployment or under- employment.

And if that's the end point then the rest of the world is looking and thinking - hang on, what's the point of all this if the end point is the US or EU?

Thus the model is broken, and therefore the glue holding the US empire together is gone since aspirationally the US just isn't what it was. As the glue fails, so the costs of holding the empire together will rise exponentially. Like every other empire in history, the US empire will ultimately fail at catastrophic cost to Americans.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom