• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Crimea Declaration

Rogue Valley

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
94,329
Reaction score
82,720
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Finally, a positive and rational statement from D.C. after [the uneducated] Donald Trump stated that Crimea should probably be Russian due to there being many Russian speakers on this Ukrainian territory.

United States Department of State | Crimea Declaration

Press Statement
Michael R. Pompeo
Secretary of State
Washington, DC
July 25, 2018

Russia, through its 2014 invasion of Ukraine and its attempted annexation of Crimea, sought to undermine a bedrock international principle shared by democratic states: that no country can change the borders of another by force. The states of the world, including Russia, agreed to this principle in the United Nations Charter, pledging to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state. This fundamental principle — which was reaffirmed in the Helsinki Final Act — constitutes one of the foundations upon which our shared security and safety rests.

As we did in the Welles Declaration in 1940, the United States reaffirms as policy its refusal to recognize the Kremlin’s claims of sovereignty over territory seized by force in contravention of international law. In concert with allies, partners, and the international community, the United States rejects Russia’s attempted annexation of Crimea and pledges to maintain this policy until Ukraine’s territorial integrity is restored.

The United States calls on Russia to respect the principles to which it has long claimed to adhere and to end its occupation of Crimea. As democratic states seek to build a free, just, and prosperous world, we must uphold our commitment to the international principle of sovereign equality and respect the territorial integrity of other states. Through its actions, Russia has acted in a manner unworthy of a great nation and has chosen to isolate itself from the international community.
Click to expand...
 
I would have preferred this come from the Oval Office with the polygraph looking signature........
 
I get that we agreed to defend Ukraine. I get that annexation is almost always unjust. But that letter does not address the anthropology of the situation. While I find myself in the absurd position of defending Trump on something socio-anthropological, a true repudiation of his claims would be evidence against his hamfisted point.

The situation is not so simple.

Now, I believed we should have got involved militarily when Georgia was invaded, let alone Ukraine. So don't get me wrong about my belief in US duty to defend. I just want to note that what Trump said was not, at its foundation, stupid.
 
ecofarm said:
I get that we agreed to defend Ukraine. I get that annexation is almost always unjust. But that letter does not address the anthropology of the situation. While I find myself in the absurd position of defending Trump on something socio-anthropological, a true repudiation of his claims would be evidence against his hamfisted point.

The situation is not so simple.

Now, I believed we should have got involved militarily when Georgia was invaded, let alone Ukraine. So don't get me wrong about my belief in US duty to defend. I just want to note that what Trump said was not, at its foundation, stupid.
Click to expand...

Did not agree with all of this, but liked the post.

What to do now is I agree not so simple. I am now convinced the only possible way for Crimea to return to the Ukraine is if the Russian Federation ceases to exist in a similar manner to how the USSR came to a conclusion.

Not very plausible at the moment so...
 
There are a lot of regions with very large numbers of native speakers because of the USSR's policy of forced relocation.

Trump's argument says that Ireland belongs to the English.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Did not agree with all of this, but liked the post.

What to do now is I agree not so simple. I am now convinced the only possible way for Crimea to return to the Ukraine is if the Russian Federation ceases to exist in a similar manner to how the USSR came to a conclusion.

Not very plausible at the moment so...
Click to expand...

No matter what happens, the vast majority of Crimea remain, as it has since the Soviet Union, ethnically Russian.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
There are a lot of regions with very large numbers of native speakers because of the USSR's policy of forced relocation.

Trump's argument says that Ireland belongs to the English.
Click to expand...

If Ireland was 80% English (self-identified, ethnically) and voted to join England, whose right is it to stop them?

Trump was in error to use merely "speaking". He meant mother tongue, ethnically Russian.
 
Last edited:
ecofarm said:
I get that we agreed to defend Ukraine. I get that annexation is almost always unjust. But that letter does not address the anthropology of the situation. While I find myself in the absurd position of defending Trump on something socio-anthropological, a true repudiation of his claims would be evidence against his hamfisted point.

The situation is not so simple.

Now, I believed we should have got involved militarily when Georgia was invaded, let alone Ukraine. So don't get me wrong about my belief in US duty to defend. I just want to note that what Trump said was not, at its foundation, stupid.
Click to expand...

"Not so simple" is an understatement. Georgia invaded Ossetia and Russian soldiers were killed. Ruassia proceeded into Georgia and could have taken the entire Nation and when the Georgians knew they had screwed the pooch, the Russians withdrew to Ossetia. I realize that is not the "narrative" promoted in Western MSM, but it is the truth.

Crimea! Wowser, the USA initiated a coup d'etat in Ukraine, even after Yanukovych had agreed to early elections, and he escaped just ahead of the bullets. In the Maidan, many were shot by sharpshooters, not by Burket(SP) police. Parubiy was in charge of those shooters from the Ukranya Hotel. No investigation has been done to identify those shooters by the Ukrainian gov't. Neither Crimea nor the Donbass acknowledged the legitimacy of the USA inspired and funded coup d'etat. Poroshenko is in charge with a 13-17% margin of eligible voters. CIA plotters named Nuland, Yats, etc. were the big players with the objective being to get access to Ukraine's farmland, 33% of the World's richest farmland, and control the Russian pipeline passing thru Ukraine to the EU. The USA got caught "screwing the pooch" and nothing can change that regardless of what the Western MSM narrative states.

"Stupid" is the gang that thinks the USA is the good guy in matters Ukraine.
/
 
DaveFagan said:
"Not so simple" is an understatement. Georgia invaded Ossetia and Russian soldiers were killed. Ruassia proceeded into Georgia and could have taken the entire Nation and when the Georgians knew they had screwed the pooch, the Russians withdrew to Ossetia. I realize that is not the "narrative" promoted in Western MSM, but it is the truth.

Crimea! Wowser, the USA initiated a coup d'etat in Ukraine, even after Yanukovych had agreed to early elections, and he escaped just ahead of the bullets. In the Maidan, many were shot by sharpshooters, not by Burket(SP) police. Parubiy was in charge of those shooters from the Ukranya Hotel. No investigation has been done to identify those shooters by the Ukrainian gov't. Neither Crimea nor the Donbass acknowledged the legitimacy of the USA inspired and funded coup d'etat. Poroshenko is in charge with a 13-17% margin of eligible voters. CIA plotters named Nuland, Yats, etc. were the big players with the objective being to get access to Ukraine's farmland, 33% of the World's richest farmland, and control the Russian pipeline passing thru Ukraine to the EU. The USA got caught "screwing the pooch" and nothing can change that regardless of what the Western MSM narrative states.

"Stupid" is the gang that thinks the USA is the good guy in matters Ukraine.
/
Click to expand...

:eek:uch:
 
ecofarm said:
No matter what happens, the vast majority of Crimea remain, as it has since the Soviet Union, ethnically Russian.
Click to expand...

Which may or may not influence things depending upon what happens and when (and I contend that is no time soon.)
 
DaveFagan said:
"Not so simple" is an understatement. Georgia invaded Ossetia and Russian soldiers were killed. Ruassia proceeded into Georgia and could have taken the entire Nation and when the Georgians knew they had screwed the pooch, the Russians withdrew to Ossetia. I realize that is not the "narrative" promoted in Western MSM, but it is the truth.

Crimea! Wowser, the USA initiated a coup d'etat in Ukraine, even after Yanukovych had agreed to early elections, and he escaped just ahead of the bullets. In the Maidan, many were shot by sharpshooters, not by Burket(SP) police. Parubiy was in charge of those shooters from the Ukranya Hotel. No investigation has been done to identify those shooters by the Ukrainian gov't. Neither Crimea nor the Donbass acknowledged the legitimacy of the USA inspired and funded coup d'etat. Poroshenko is in charge with a 13-17% margin of eligible voters. CIA plotters named Nuland, Yats, etc. were the big players with the objective being to get access to Ukraine's farmland, 33% of the World's richest farmland, and control the Russian pipeline passing thru Ukraine to the EU. The USA got caught "screwing the pooch" and nothing can change that regardless of what the Western MSM narrative states.

"Stupid" is the gang that thinks the USA is the good guy in matters Ukraine.
/
Click to expand...

You still going with the $5 BILLION lie?

Or have you abandoned that?

Last time I checked the UKRAINIANS rebelled against their corrupt Putin hugging leader....
 
ecofarm said:
If Ireland was 80% English (self-identified, ethnically) and voted to join England, whose right is it to stop them?
Click to expand...

... the right of the people whose country they're stealing? Remember, those people didn't get their accidentally: the Russian and English governments deliberately sent them there after seizing the land by conquest.

How far North am I going to have to move to keep you from trying to give me back to the Mexicans?
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
... the right of the people whose country they're stealing? Remember, those people didn't get their accidentally: the Russian and English governments deliberately sent them there after seizing the land by conquest.

How far North am I going to have to move to keep you from trying to give me back to the Mexicans?
Click to expand...

Mexican Americans are Americans. The majority of Crimea are Russians.
 
Fledermaus said:
You still going with the $5 BILLION lie?

Or have you abandoned that?

Last time I checked the UKRAINIANS rebelled against their corrupt Putin hugging leader....
Click to expand...

You get a 4.0 for being able to do the "pete and repeat," no thinking required. I told you to use libeerally that lard and pig urine to grease the head and skids to pull out of that propaganda pipeline.
/
 
DaveFagan said:
You get a 4.0 for being able to do the "pete and repeat," no thinking required. I told you to use libeerally that lard and pig urine to grease the head and skids to pull out of that propaganda pipeline.
/
Click to expand...

This is a presentation of the Automated PUTIN PROTECTION PROGRAM....

You still going with the $5 BILLION lie? YES OR NO?

Or have you abandoned that? YES OR NO?

Last time I checked the UKRAINIANS rebelled against their corrupt Putin hugging leader.... YES OR NO?

The fact that you cannot answer direct questions with anything other than insults and ignorance doesn't show you in a good light.
 
ecofarm said:
Mexican Americans are Americans. The majority of Crimea are Russians.
Click to expand...

Who were displaced from Russia, in violation of their rights, in order to secure control their territory.

What part of this are you not understanding?
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Who were displaced from Russia, in violation of their rights, in order to secure control their territory.

What part of this are you not understanding?
Click to expand...

I know history, and I deal with reality. Spare me your condescending BS. Your objection has one solution, eject the ethnically Russian from Crimea. If you're not gonna do that, then deal with real as it exists today.
 
ecofarm said:
I know history, and I deal with reality. Spare me your condescending BS. Your objection has one solution, eject the ethnically Russian from Crimea. If you're not gonna do that, then deal with real as it exists today.
Click to expand...

Or, the ethnic Russians accept Ukraine as their statehood....
 
Fledermaus said:
The majority of Crimea are Russians due to the ethnic cleansing that occurred during the 20th century.
Click to expand...

Everyone knows that. I dated a Russian woman from Crimea for years, there's a pic of me with her in my album at my profile, last pic (it's in Gainesville, we met in Sweden during our MSc program).

I've spent plenty of time, long before the annexation, discussing Crimea. I discussed Crimea before the average American recognized the word.
 
You know what? I'm sorry I lashed out at you.

So, which do you think is worse, to forcibly eject the ethnically Russian from Crimea, or to bundle up millions of ethnic Ukrainians on their own land and hand them back to the Russian government?

If conquest is wrong by the soldier's rifle, it is surely just as wrong by the lawyer's pen.
 
Last edited:
ecofarm said:
Everyone knows that. I dated a Russian woman from Crimea for years, there's a pic of me wuth her in my album at my profile, last pic (it's in Gainesville, we met in Sweden during our MSc program).
Click to expand...

Cool... Why can't the Ukraine have Crimea back with Russian oversight of the major port where their fleet is housed?
 
Not strong enough.

Trump should have had that declaration printed out and brought it TO THE MEETING with Putin.

Then he should have knocked Putin to the ground, straddled him and made him eat the declaration.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
You know what? I'm sorry I lashed out at you.

So, which do you think is worse, to forcibly eject the ethnically Russian from Crimea, or to bundle up millions of ethnic Ukrainians on their own land[/] and hand them back to the Russian government?

If conquest is wrong by the soldier's rifle, it is surely just as wrong by the lawyer's pen.
Click to expand...


I don't know. I know a woman who was Stateless because of animosity from her government, Ukraine. They told her, "we don't care if you were born in Sevastopol, you're Russian and we're not giving stinking Russians Ukrainian passports". After a year into our Masters (to which she was accepted as Stateless) Ukraine finally gave her a passport.

Russian Crimeans are just as much victims of the Soviets as Ukrainian Crimeans. Who do we flush?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom