Germany and Russia gas links: Trump is not only one to ask questions

Rogue Valley · Jul 12, 2018

Germany and Russia gas links: Trump is not only one to ask questions

7/1/18
Donald Trump may have used typically emotive – if premeditated – language from the outset at the Nato summit in Brussels to lambaste Germany for its willingness to build a gas pipeline, but the US president’s view that this will make Europe particularly dependent on Russian gas is widely shared by European politicians, think-tanks and energy specialists, including some in Berlin. No country is more angry about the pipeline than Ukraine, an ally Trump is supposedly poised to abandon when he meets the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, in Helsinki on Monday. Ukraine stands to lose billions of much needed dollars if Russia can transfer its gas transmissions to Europe across the Baltic Sea, away from a pipeline running across Ukrainian territory. The aim of a second double-pipeline – which was once scheduled for completion by the end of 2019, but is now likely to be delayed – is to act as a decades-long substitute for the decreasing production of the Netherlands, Denmark and Britain. For Merkel it is also politically essential to get Germany out of nuclear energy by 2022, but still reduce her country’s carbon emissions.

Sweden, Denmark and Finland have expressed ecological reservations about a second natural gas pipeline at the bottom of the Baltic. The UK has also been objecting, albeit less stridently. A letter sent by the former foreign secretary Boris Johnson to the all-party group of MPs on Poland two months ago echoed many of the objections put forth by the European Commission. The biggest fear is that the pipeline allows Russia a boot on the throat of Europe. It had not been afraid to cut off supplies faced by price disputes with Ukraine. The question now is whether the US Congress would follow through in its threat to sanction European companies involved in the pipeline. The US treasury has shown through secondary sanctions on firms trading with Iran that it possesses an overwhelming economic power to force EU firms to divest from commercially profitable projects. For all the talk in Europe about establishing a European economic sovereignty, the reality is that the US under Trump can expose that ambition as a fiction. The question is whether it is in the US’s self-interest to wield its power over its supposed allies and partners quite so nakedly.

On this issue, I agree with Donald Trump (a first I believe). Nord (North) Stream II is not necessary for supply purposes. NS-II can only deliver Russian over-supply and European over-dependence. When you get right down to it, the overarching purpose of NS-II is geopolitical in essence ... to cut Ukraine and Poland out of the gas transmission schematic. This accomplishes two things for Moscow; (1) NS-II allows the Kremlin to get around paying gas transmission fees that Ukraine and Poland collect to transport Russian gas across their territory and (2) NS-II allows the Kremlin to completely turn off the gas to Ukraine without also affecting the rest of Europe. Germany, the preeminent economic power on the European continent, has been pushing for NS-II using all of its considerable influence. Indeed, former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is now a Vice-President and NS-II lobbyist for the Russia state-owned Gazprom energy giant.

There are also very real military consequences involved. Nord Stream I allowed the Kremlin to modernize its military forces and invade Georgia, Crimea, and eastern Ukraine. Nord Stream II will permit Moscow to continue modernizing its already formidable military, and finance additional Kremlin invasions of ... ??

Barnacle · Jul 12, 2018

I'm surprised you even bothered to look into those facts ... and all that without the prompting of CNN or the NYT.

cuban smokes · Jul 12, 2018

Barnacle said:
I'm surprised you even bothered to look into those facts ... and all that without the prompting of CNN or the NYT.

DP member Rouge Valley is not a Republican, conservative, GOPer, Nazi, etc., and as such actually has a brain, unlike Republicans, conservatives, GOPers, Nazis, etc.

Felis Leo · Jul 12, 2018

Rogue Valley said:
Germany and Russia gas links: Trump is not only one to ask questions

On this issue, I agree with Donald Trump (a first I believe). Nord (North) Stream II is not necessary for supply purposes. NS-II can only deliver Russian over-supply and European over-dependence. When you get right down to it, the overarching purpose of NS-II is geopolitical in essence ... to cut Ukraine and Poland out of the gas transmission schematic. This accomplishes two things for Moscow; (1) NS-II allows the Kremlin to get around paying gas transmission fees that Ukraine and Poland collect to transport Russian gas across their territory and (2) NS-II allows the Kremlin to completely turn off the gas to Ukraine without also affecting the rest of Europe. Germany, the preeminent economic power on the European continent, has been pushing for NS-II using all of its considerable influence. Indeed, former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is now a Vice-President and NS-II lobbyist for the Russia state-owned Gazprom energy giant.

There are also very real military consequences involved. Nord Stream I allowed the Kremlin to modernize its military forces and invade Georgia, Crimea, and eastern Ukraine. Nord Stream II will permit Moscow to continue modernizing its already formidable military, and finance additional Kremlin invasions of ... ??

I agree. Donald Trump is correct. If the German government and its people consider Russia a threat to Western Europe, then it would be best for Germany to put its money where its mouth is and NOT to give up its energy security and directly pour money into the hands of a tyrannical, criminal Russian regime. And then when Russia builds up its military forces using German money, Germany then turns to the United States demanding protection (and for the United States to foot most of the bill). Germany cannot undercut NATO by funding our enemies to get relatively cheap Russian fossil fuel (and thereby make itself dependent on it), and then cynically call upon the United States and NATO to defend its interests.

Rogue Valley · Jul 12, 2018

Barnacle said:
I'm surprised you even bothered to look into those facts ... and all that without the prompting of CNN or the NYT.

I always know my facts. Something you should, but never do, emulate.

RabidAlpaca · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
I agree. Donald Trump is correct. If the German government and its people consider Russia a threat to Western Europe, then it would be best for Germany to put its money where its mouth is and NOT to give up its energy security and directly pour money into the hands of a tyrannical, criminal Russian regime. And then when Russia builds up its military forces using German money, Germany then turns to the United States demanding protection (and for the United States to foot most of the bill). Germany cannot undercut NATO by funding our enemies to get relatively cheap Russian fossil fuel (and thereby make itself dependent on it), and then cynically call upon the United States and NATO to defend its interests.

Funding our enemies? Are you saying anyone that buys anything from Russia is funding our enemies? I guess the US is too then. When did this moral embargo begin? He shortly after suggested Germany should buy it from the US instead. It's hard for people to take Trump's criticism of them seriously when Trump is constantly fellating Putin, strengthening Russia and weakening NATO. To many European nations Trump is making it clear that HE and the US are their enemy.

Rogue Valley · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
I agree. Donald Trump is correct. If the German government and its people consider Russia a threat to Western Europe, then it would be best for Germany to put its money where its mouth is and NOT to give up its energy security and directly pour money into the hands of a tyrannical, criminal Russian regime. And then when Russia builds up its military forces using German money, Germany then turns to the United States demanding protection (and for the United States to foot most of the bill). Germany cannot undercut NATO by funding our enemies to get relatively cheap Russian fossil fuel (and thereby make itself dependent on it), and then cynically call upon the United States and NATO to defend its interests.

Trump may be correct concerning Nord Stream 2, but not for all the right reasons. In the bigger scheme of things, Donald Trump couldn't care less about Ukraine. For whatever reason(s), Trump is a Putin/Russia fanboi. Just recently Trump suggested giving Crimea to Russia because many people there spoke Russian. This makes as much sense as the US giving Texas to Mexico because many people in Texas speak Spanish. In addition, without Congressional constraints, Trump would have removed US sanctions against Russia for invading and illegally annexing Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. This policy direction of Trump deconstructs the international norms painstakingly constructed by US presidents and national policy papers from Wilson to Obama. National borders are inviolate, and must not be altered by force. This is a fundamental pillar of the international community. If Trump jettison's this generational norm, it will without doubt birth international chaos and further military adventurism.

Felis Leo · Jul 12, 2018

RabidAlpaca said:
Funding our enemies? Are you saying anyone that buys anything from Russia is funding our enemies?

I am saying no such thing. What I am saying is that when one buys oil or gas that is supplied by a Russian state-owned hydrocarbon company (Gazprom) and from which the Russian government derives more than a third of its revenue, one is funding its government. Am I somehow wrong in my statement?

I do not know where you stand on the issue of Russia vis-a-vis Europe and the United States, and I should hope that you tell me. For my part, I consider the Russian State to be my country's adversary at best and our enemy at worst, and while I do not necessarily mind a thawing of relations, I do not believe we should say we are sanctioning on the one hand, and then allow our allies to pay them massive amounts for their oil and gas with the other with nary a cough or word of objection.

RabidAlpaca said:
I guess the US is too then.

I am not sure what you mean. What exactly is the United States government or private firms presently buying from Russian state-owned enterprises, the funds of which are then used to finance Russia's militaristic expansionist policies? Because if there are any, I would say that they should be halted immediately.

RabidAlpaca said:
When did this moral embargo begin?

I believe it began after the Russian Federation violated the sovereignty of Ukraine and annexed the Crimean peninsula and after it was found that Russian operatives engaged in interfering with the United States elections in 2016. I thought that was relatively common knowledge.

RabidAlpaca said:
He shortly after suggested Germany should buy it from the US instead.

And that is wrong why exactly? Leave aside your personal hatred of Donald Trump and distaste for the United States for a moment and let us get down to first principles. What is wrong with purchasing energy from one's present allies rather than one's present enemies? Especially when that ally uses a portion of the taxable revenue from the energy purchases to supply one's defense?

RabidAlpaca said:
It's hard for people to take Trump's criticism of them seriously when Trump is constantly fellating Putin, strengthening Russia and weakening NATO.

How has Russia been strengthened? Other than Donald Trump's surreal praise of Putin and other autocrats, what has Donald Trump and his administration done to concretely help Russian national, economic or military interests? Because all I see are shadows. Where do you see the substance?

RabidAlpaca said:
To many European nations Trump is making it clear that HE and the US are their enemy.

If European nations and peoples only care about words rather than actions (which perhaps they do) then perhaps you are right.

Westphalian · Jul 12, 2018

US opposition to NS is partly designed to avoid money flowing into Russia - in this Rogue is correct.

But let's get real here - the other reason is that if Europe can't buy gas from Russia, it will most likely have to buy much more expensive US shale gas.

Lining the pockets of US corporates is always an objective of US foreign policy. But, from a European perspective, buying more expensive US gas is not such an attractive option because European energy prices (ironically particularly in the Baltics) are already inflated by an obsession with expensive renewables. Consumers have votes, and European elites are already not exactly the height of popularity.

PeteEU · Jul 12, 2018

1) Russia wants to sell it's natural resources.

2) Europe needs as does the rest of the world.

3) Ukraine is unstable (even before the Crimea thing) and is untrustworthy.

It's only logical to have as much pipeline around the untrustworthy and unstable areas.

This is a non issue. Pipelines like this have always been geo-political. Remember the pipelines planned in the middle east and Cacuses? All were planned and built to guarantee supply as much as possible.

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk

SheWolf · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
I agree. Donald Trump is correct. If the German government and its people consider Russia a threat to Western Europe, then it would be best for Germany to put its money where its mouth is and NOT to give up its energy security and directly pour money into the hands of a tyrannical, criminal Russian regime. And then when Russia builds up its military forces using German money, Germany then turns to the United States demanding protection (and for the United States to foot most of the bill). Germany cannot undercut NATO by funding our enemies to get relatively cheap Russian fossil fuel (and thereby make itself dependent on it), and then cynically call upon the United States and NATO to defend its interests.

It's ok to have an opinion but it's not worth destabilizing NATO over. Also, the the US is a massive hypocrite. They pour money into tyrannical regimes for oil all the time. Trump went to the Saudis and was treated like a king. Trump is a massive hypocrite.

Felis Leo · Jul 12, 2018

SheWolf said:
It's ok to have an opinion but it's not worth destabilizing NATO over. Also, the the US is a massive hypocrite. They pour money into tyrannical regimes for oil all the time. Trump went to the Saudis and was treated like a king. Trump is a massive hypocrite.

Yes, I agree with you that the United States should not be buying oil from Saudi Arabia. However, my criticism remains salient and it is not Donald Trump who is wholly destabilizing NATO. Germany is destabilizing NATO by undercutting the very purpose of the alliance. Germany is leaving its energy security in the hands of its adversary Russia, AND paying them for the pleasure of giving Russia the knife with which to cut their throats. What is the point of having NATO if its members makes dependent upon and give money to the adversary which the Treaty Organization was originally created to defend against? As far as I am concerned, Germany is behaving like the eagle from Aesop's Fables.

Godric1970 · Jul 12, 2018

the reality is it's none of America's business Europe contrary to belief does not answer to America and with all his tariffs nonsense he has a cheek if he spoke to me the way he spoke to Merkel and Germany yesterday ... i would have beaten him to a pulp

Godric1970 · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
Yes, I agree with you that the United States should not be buying oil from Saudi Arabia. However, my criticism remains salient and it is not Donald Trump who is wholly destabilizing NATO. Germany is destabilizing NATO by undercutting the very purpose of the alliance. Germany is leaving its energy security in the hands of its adversary Russia, AND paying them for the pleasure of giving Russia the knife with which to cut their throats. What is the point of having NATO if its members makes dependent upon and give money to the adversary which the Treaty Organization was originally created to defend against? As far as I am concerned, Germany is behaving like the eagle from Aesop's Fables.

you don't get it Western Europe does not see Russia as adversary ... the German people want US forces out of their country ... most western Europeans see America as the real threat

Felis Leo · Jul 12, 2018

Godric1970 said:
the reality is it's none of America's business Europe contrary to belief does not answer to America and with all his tariffs nonsense he has a cheek if he spoke to me the way he spoke to Merkel and Germany yesterday ... i would have beaten him to a pulp

Beat Donald Trump up for what? For apparently telling the truth for once in his miserable life? Germany is making itself vulnerable to and dependent upon Russia. Germany is giving Russia massive amounts of money (which goes into the Russian government's coffers and can be used for its military expansionism) for access to its natural gas and oil and building a pipeline to fuel its energy needs. And then they have the gall to call upon the NATO alliance to defend them. Either the German government is behaving in an extraordinarily corrupt fashion, or it is run by a pack of colossal idiots. And, to be quite frank, I do not think one gets into the highest halls of governmental power in Germany by being a lackwit.

Felis Leo · Jul 12, 2018

Godric1970 said:
you don't get it Western Europe does not see Russia as adversary ... the German people want US forces out of their country ... most western Europeans see America as the real threat

And you know what? That is fine. We can dissolve NATO and let the EU and other Western European nations deal with Russia on their own terms as they see fit. But they cannot and should not try to double-deal and play both sides against one another and get the benefits of being defended by the United States at the same time as receiving the benefits of cheap fossil fuel from their ostensible adversary Russia. Germany already pulled us in on the side of their favorite puppet state Croatia during the abortion known as the Yugoslav wars. As far as I am concerned they can handle their own affairs from hereon out if they so wish.

JONRID · Jul 12, 2018

RabidAlpaca said:
Funding our enemies? Are you saying anyone that buys anything from Russia is funding our enemies? I guess the US is too then. When did this moral embargo begin? He shortly after suggested Germany should buy it from the US instead. It's hard for people to take Trump's criticism of them seriously when Trump is constantly fellating Putin, strengthening Russia and weakening NATO. To many European nations Trump is making it clear that HE and the US are their enemy.

You should quit fellating the Trump deranged media.

If you consider tossing out Russian diplomats, placing sanctions on Russians, and sending lethal aid to the Ukraine as being nice to Putin what would you have Trump do to Russia ? Nuke em ?

Godric1970 · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
Beat Donald Trump up for what? For apparently telling the truth for once in his miserable life? Germany is making itself vulnerable to and dependent upon Russia. Germany is giving Russia massive amounts of money (which goes into the Russian government's coffers and can be used for its military expansionism) for access to its natural gas and oil and building a pipeline to fuel its energy needs. And then they have the gall to call upon the NATO alliance to defend them. Either the German government is behaving in an extraordinarily corrupt fashion, or it is run by a pack of colossal idiots. And, to be quite frank, I do not think one gets into the highest halls of governmental power in Germany by being a lackwit.

1st Germany and the EU is not here to bank role America most western Europeans don't want America forces in Western Europe,
2nd you have a damn cheek after imposing trade tariffs on the EU
3rd Germany or the EU replaces Russian gas with US LNG would make our economies uncompetitive America would just love that
4th Russia is not our enemy it is a long term trading partner

... you can jump up and down like a spoilt brat all you want you are unreliable, threaten us with sanctions over the Iran Deal and more tariffs .... i have two words for America "Get Lost"

SheWolf · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
Yes, I agree with you that the United States should not be buying oil from Saudi Arabia. However, my criticism remains salient and it is not Donald Trump who is wholly destabilizing NATO. Germany is destabilizing NATO by undercutting the very purpose of the alliance. Germany is leaving its energy security in the hands of its adversary Russia, AND paying them for the pleasure of giving Russia the knife with which to cut their throats. What is the point of having NATO if its members makes dependent upon and give money to the adversary which the Treaty Organization was originally created to defend against? As far as I am concerned, Germany is behaving like the eagle from Aesop's Fables.

Angela Merkel is the Chancellor now. This arrangement with Russia occurred before her leadership, and Russia did not invade Crimea until recently.

Trump is conflating the issue, treating Germany unfairly, and being a bully.

His low info and misinformed supporters probably have no idea that Merkle herself felt Germany was too intertwined in Russia oil after Crimea.

What Trump did would be no better if Merkle marched into NATO and made an ass out of herself, demanding that the US and Saudi relationship and oil trading needs to change because it's destabilizing the ME and going to drag NATO to war.

Hawkeye10 · Jul 12, 2018

cuban smokes said:
DP member Rouge Valley is not a Republican, conservative, GOPer, Nazi, etc., and as such actually has a brain, unlike Republicans, conservatives, GOPers, Nazis, etc.

This post is offensive.

America was once better than this.

Godric1970 · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
And you know what? That is fine. We can dissolve NATO and let the EU and other Western European nations deal with Russia on their own terms as they see fit. But they cannot and should not try to double-deal and play both sides against one another and get the benefits of being defended by the United States at the same time as receiving the benefits of cheap fossil fuel from their ostensible adversary Russia. Germany already pulled us in on the side of their favorite puppet state Croatia during the abortion known as the Yugoslav wars. As far as I am concerned they can handle their own affairs from hereon out if they so wish.

well stop interfering in European politics like you did with our independence referendum in 2014 Scots never forget these things, you have been interfering in our politics for decades spied on our governments uploaded malware to our power grids and you have the cheek to claim you are our allies ... and then their is the small matter of your two color revolutions in Ukraine where you used neo nazi vermin to overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine that caused Russia to react America and Obama new Ukraine was the red line in the sand

SheWolf · Jul 12, 2018

Godric1970 said:
the reality is it's none of America's business Europe contrary to belief does not answer to America and with all his tariffs nonsense he has a cheek if he spoke to me the way he spoke to Merkel and Germany yesterday ... i would have beaten him to a pulp

I agree that criticism is fair, but at a point, there is a line in fighting an ally over a domestic issue like this just because you're in an alliance with them. And given Trump's record, he doesn't say it and move on. He tries to hold people over a barrel and threaten them into doing what he wants, and for what? This isn't worth him acting like a fool on the international stage.

SheWolf · Jul 12, 2018

Felis Leo said:
Yes, I agree with you that the United States should not be buying oil from Saudi Arabia. However, my criticism remains salient and it is not Donald Trump who is wholly destabilizing NATO. Germany is destabilizing NATO by undercutting the very purpose of the alliance. Germany is leaving its energy security in the hands of its adversary Russia, AND paying them for the pleasure of giving Russia the knife with which to cut their throats. What is the point of having NATO if its members makes dependent upon and give money to the adversary which the Treaty Organization was originally created to defend against? As far as I am concerned, Germany is behaving like the eagle from Aesop's Fables.

And again, in terms of the way Americans act towards Islam and extermism, you're also giving the Saudis a knife to slit your throat. You're also acting like the fabled eagle.

Seriously, Saudi has done so much in fostering extremism. Even most Muslims in that region talk badly of the regime, it's corruption, and the face they have created for islam. But it's Americans strongest ally in the region. Haha

Godric1970 · Jul 12, 2018

SheWolf said:
I agree that criticism is fair, but at a point, there is a line in fighting an ally over a domestic issue like this just because you're in an alliance with them. And given Trump's record, he doesn't say it and move on. He tries to hold people over a barrel and threaten them into doing what he wants, and for what? This isn't worth him acting like a fool on the international stage.

Trump is about 25% - 50% Scottish i am 100% Scottish ... the way he talked Yesterday was fighting talk to Scots it puts the hair up my back and then the aggression flows

SheWolf · Jul 12, 2018

Godric1970 said:
1st Germany and the EU is not here to bank role America most western Europeans don't want America forces in Western Europe,
2nd you have a damn cheek after imposing trade tariffs on the EU
3rd Germany or the EU replaces Russian gas with US LNG would make our economies uncompetitive America would just love that
4th Russia is not our enemy it is a long term trading partner

... you can jump up and down like a spoilt brat all you want you are unreliable, threaten us with sanctions over the Iran Deal and more tariffs .... i have two words for America "Get Lost"

If Trump keeps pressing NATO, some allies might say, fine, no more US bases in this nation. Trump doesn't understand how NATO serves and benefits America. If we lost the ability to move around our military all over the world, our military strength would fall into decline

Germany and Russia gas links: Trump is not only one to ask questions

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