• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Germany and Russia gas links: Trump is not only one to ask questions

Hawkeye10 said:
This post is offensive.

America was once better than this.
Click to expand...

I agree; Republicans used to be Americans, thus they were better .............. now they are Russians; I'm offended too .........
 
SheWolf said:
It's ok to have an opinion but it's not worth destabilizing NATO over. Also, the the US is a massive hypocrite. They pour money into tyrannical regimes for oil all the time. Trump went to the Saudis and was treated like a king. Trump is a massive hypocrite.
Click to expand...

Saudi Arabia is the worlds larges producer of crude oil. Encouraging the Saudi to increase oil production to keep the price of gas at the pump down is not hypocrisy - it is common sense.

If Germany depends on Russia for oil/natural gas to produce its electric and fuel its military - in the event of Russian adventurism Germany is powerless to object in a meaningful manner to Russian actions.

In the event of a war: German tanks would lack the fuel to get to Russia.

 
SheWolf said:
Angela Merkel is the Chancellor now. This arrangement with Russia occurred before her leadership, and Russia did not invade Crimea until recently.
Click to expand...

Are she and her government are somehow powerless to reverse the policies of prior governments with regard to this energy pipeline? Is it your contention that Angela Merkel bears no responsibility whatsoever?

SheWolf said:
Trump is conflating the issue, treating Germany unfairly, and being a bully.

His low info and misinformed supporters probably have no idea that Merkle herself felt Germany was too intertwined in Russia oil after Crimea.
Click to expand...

I really do not see how Merkel's feelings have any relevance with regard to that dependence on Russian gas unless she and her government plan on ending that dependence. Which, by any indication, does not appear to be in the cards. Just to be clear, I do not care too much about the thoughts or feelings of political figures. I care about what they actually do with the power that they have.

SheWolf said:
What Trump did would be no better if Merkle marched into NATO and made an ass out of herself, demanding that the US and Saudi relationship and oil trading needs to change because it's destabilizing the ME and going to drag NATO to war.
Click to expand...

Seeing that such a statement is fairly accurate, and that I despise the Saudi regime as I do the Iranian regime, I personally would welcome it.
 
SheWolf said:
And again, in terms of the way Americans act towards Islam and extermism, you're also giving the Saudis a knife to slit your throat. You're also acting like the fabled eagle.

Seriously, Saudi has done so much in fostering extremism. Even most Muslims in that region talk badly of the regime, it's corruption, and the face they have created for islam. But it's Americans strongest ally in the region. Haha
Click to expand...

I have said it before on other threads, but I will say it again here: Saudi Arabia is tied with Iran as being the most actively malevolent forces in the Middle East in terms of spreading its wicked Salafist-Wahhabi religious ideology worldwide. It is the reason we have groups like al Qaeda and ISIS and their affiliates running around the Middle East, Africa, Europe and Asia murdering people to this day. The blame is almost squarely on their shoulders. You will not see me acting as their partisan in this thread or any others. We should not be spending a penny of our money on their oil, not now, not ever.

I would sooner we buy our money from the dirty Chavista Scots.
 
Godric1970 said:
4th Russia is not our enemy it is a long term trading partner
Click to expand...

Make no mistake. Russia is the enemy of the West. At this very moment, every major Western city is targeted by Russian nuclear ballistic/cruise missiles.

Moscow's immediate objectives:

- breaking the transatlantic alliance, esp NATO
- weakening the international system of rules that Russia cannot compete in
- breaking our societies, including by causing civil conflict
 
Rogue Valley said:
Make no mistake. Russia is the enemy of the West. At this very moment, every major Western city is targeted by Russian nuclear ballistic/cruise missiles.

Moscow's immediate objectives:

- breaking the transatlantic alliance, esp NATO
- weakening the international system of rules that Russia cannot compete in
- breaking our societies, including by causing civil conflict
Click to expand...

and i'll think you'll find the west has every Russian city targeted by a nuke
America is doing a good job of that itself
as above America is involved in conflicts around the globe supporting and funding terrorist groups to destabilise countries that do not toe America's line ....


and America is no friend of Europe
 
yes, I agree, with the OP, however, believe Trump's objection to Nordstream 2 has more to do with the US shale gas industry than his concerns over Ukraine, or his concerns over Russia's future military capabilities.

Trumps doesn't care about people he cares about money.... and that's pretty much it lol

US and Russia step up fight to supply Europe’s gas
https://www.ft.com/content/352f4cac-6c7a-11e7-b9c7-15af748b60d0

When US President Donald Trump promised to raise US natural gas exports in Europe in a speech in Poland, he was cheered by the crowd to the rooftops.

Such a reaction will have troubled executives at Gazprom, Russia’s state-owned energy giant, as it marks an escalation in the battle over gas supplies in the prized European market.

That fight has been years in the making, with the growth of US liquefied natural gas exports set to challenge the established supplies of the Russian behemoth.
Click to expand...
 
Godric1970 said:
and i'll think you'll find the west has every Russian city targeted by a nuke
America is doing a good job of that itself
as above America is involved in conflicts around the globe supporting and funding terrorist groups to destabilise countries that do not toe America's line ....


and America is no friend of Europe
Click to expand...

Would be pretty hard to do for the West if America were to withdraw its forces from Europe ... ;)
 
Felis Leo said:
And you know what? That is fine. We can dissolve NATO and let the EU and other Western European nations deal with Russia on their own terms as they see fit. But they cannot and should not try to double-deal and play both sides against one another and get the benefits of being defended by the United States at the same time as receiving the benefits of cheap fossil fuel from their ostensible adversary Russia. Germany already pulled us in on the side of their favorite puppet state Croatia during the abortion known as the Yugoslav wars. As far as I am concerned they can handle their own affairs from hereon out if they so wish.
Click to expand...

The reality is that the Europeans defended us when we were attacked on 911. NATO sent European troops to Afghanistan. NATO has never defended Germany. The U.S. has always been opposed to the pipeline this is not a new policy either. Trump's ignorant tirade will not be helpful in persuading Germany to back down and that was the point. He has made it political suicide to kowtow to the "American idiot". Trump serves to break up our alliances and strengthen Putin's hand. Trump was made and picked for that job.
 
Last edited:
my personal stand on this:

I don´t fear Russia invading us - it would make zero sense for them

but the pipeline is really a smelling thing. I wonder why not more people here complain about our former chancelor doing the job he does

Gas: I´d rather take the clean russian gas until we can rely on renewable - (and that will happen, even if the states and Russia both wount like it) than shipping the dirty American fracking gas over the Atlantic and destroying the inviroment twice with that.

I think a lot of American (not all) posters here have problems with wearing otherones shoes for a while

they can´t imagine that someone sets enviroment above money
they can´t imagine that someone stes peace above money
they can´t imagine that someone stets social peace above money

so they have literally no chance to understand what people in Europe think and why

and now they elected the arch bishop of money for president - thats the main reason everything is escalating atm in my opinion
 
german hick said:
my personal stand on this:

I don´t fear Russia invading us - it would make zero sense for them.
Click to expand...

It made zero sense to invade Ukraine also ... until it didn't.

Just this week 7 severely wounded Ukrainian soldiers arrived at the Bundeswher military hospital in Berlin.

And yet, Germany is [indirectly] helping to fund the Russian war machine.

You're acting two-faced and hypocritical.
 
Rogue Valley said:
And yet, Germany is [indirectly] helping to fund the Russian war machine.

You're acting two-faced and hypocritical.
Click to expand...

as I said, I´m not comfortable with that - but I´d rather take that for the time until renewables are the main source than shipped American fracking gas
 
Rogue Valley said:
It made zero sense to invade Ukraine also ... until it didn't.

Just this week 7 severely wounded Ukrainian soldiers arrived at the Bundeswher military hospital in Berlin.

And yet, Germany is [indirectly] helping to fund the Russian war machine.

You're acting two-faced and hypocritical.
Click to expand...

So you are in favor of an embargo on all trade with Russia? That is the only way to not fund the "Russian war machine". I thought Trump said Putin was "fine". Which is it? Trump is the one supporting Putin every time he opens his mouth not Germany.
 
Rogue Valley said:
It made zero sense to invade Ukraine also ... until it didn't.

Just this week 7 severely wounded Ukrainian soldiers arrived at the Bundeswher military hospital in Berlin.

And yet, Germany is [indirectly] helping to fund the Russian war machine.

You're acting two-faced and hypocritical.
Click to expand...


There was no invasion of Ukraine.


The most you can say is that Russia sent forces into a small part of Ukraine to help defend some Ukrainians in a civil war against other Ukrainians.


Repetition of distortions does not make them any less distortions.
 
Crossing the border of a sovereign state with armed forces and doing that without being invited by the legal government of said state is an invasion.

Repetition of the claim that this ain't so is the repetition of a distortion.
 
One would think that Glavset (or any of its like-minded Olgino derivatives) would by now have the money to afford people that can present lies more intelligently.
 
Chagos said:
Crossing the border of a sovereign state with armed forces and doing that without being invited by the legal government of said state is an invasion.

Repetition of the claim that this ain't so is the repetition of a distortion.
Click to expand...


So, the US has invaded Syria then.


Or does it not count when the US does it?
 
I'm not going to engage dishonest propagandists who see an invasion or not depending on which bias they want to put wherever.

Nor those who want to deflect from their lies by taking the childish tack of "well look what he did".

By all definitions of logic Ukraine was invaded, period.
 
It's odd how some people refuse to answer any points I make, and instead resort to tired of insults like 'troll' or 'dis-honest propagandist'.

Chagos - if you define 'invasion' in the way you did (which I don't agree with by the way, but it's your definition), then its global implications must be considered. You can't arbitrarily define 'invasion' and then apply it on a one use only basis.

Like international law, it doesn't function if it's selectively applied.
 
post #45 does not require repeating as it's message is clear.
 
Chagos said:
post #45 does not require repeating as it's message is clear.
Click to expand...


In which case we're agreed that US forces have 'invaded' Syria, and that the US is equally if not more guilty of breaking international law.


And before you say it .......... context and the behaviour of other states do matter. One can't righteously sit in a glass house, throw stones at others, and expect no reciprocal response.
 
Last edited:
I incidentally mentioned Glavset and Olgino because certain posting styles on here bring those to mind immediately. Since the only (two) activists I know from that venue have long since left there, it's probably safe to say that they're not active on these boards in the described manner. It also means that I cannot identify others since I neither know them personally nor can I access their IP (and be it a VPN).

Should someone feel addressed however, it raises the possibility that the shoe might be seen to fit, especially since Olgino and/or Glavset do not appear to be foreign terms.

Whatever the case, I'll engage whoever posts in the described manner as little as I'll engage anyone whom I know with certainty to work for those venues.

Displayed dishonesty is reason enough and that includes the prevarication seen in changing of goalposts (see post #48).

And with that I'm done with this particular "side-theatre" of arguing over things I never said and, obviously and by default, with whatever poster tries that line with me.
 
Last edited:
A really poor attempt at debating, which was I thought the point of the forum?


If one believes in free speech, then they should welcome reasonably and politely addressed views instead of behaving like the forum equivalent of a spoilt child who isn't getting an ice cream.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom