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‘They Will Die in Tallinn’

Rogue Valley

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‘They Will Die in Tallinn’: Estonia Girds for War With Russia

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Almost 10 years after the Russian invasion of Georgia in August 2008, it’s clear NATO still needs to learn more quickly from our partners with a deeper history of fighting Russian aggression in all its various forms. Foremost of those partners is Estonia, which, unlike Georgia, is a full NATO member and has been since 2004. There’s an unspoken duality underlying the mind-set of Estonian defense. To survive, you must integrate: The three Baltic states—Estonia plus Latvia and Lithuania—acted as a unified region to achieve NATO and EU membership, and they continue to engage the U.S. and NATO from that “B3” format above all. The idea that Estonia—whose entire population isn’t much bigger than Russia's standing army, and which has little on its own in the way of air power and armor—could withstand a Russian assault might seem like a silly discussion from the far side of the Atlantic. But Estonia has resources that are as much in demand in the alliance as TOW missiles and tanks: will and a mobilized population. In a country of just over 1.3 million, fully 60,000 are trained and serve in the military or reserves. The importance of this human element cannot be dismissed: Estonians still have vivid memories of the price of occupation, and this perspective sharpens strategic planning in unexpected ways. This is in no small part why U.S. Special Forces have committed new resources to the Baltics, including Estonia: to learn from local experience, and to challenge America’s thinking about Russia and what the U.S. can do to build a new kind of deterrence against hybrid threats.

On a recent rainy afternoon in Tallinn, in the shadow of Estonia’s Freedom Cross, I met Colonel Riho Uhtegi, commander of the Estonian Special Operations Force, to discuss the Russian threat and the new deterrence. “People talk about this ‘Five Days War’ in Georgia” said Uhtegi, staring out into the rain. “But it wasn’t five days. The hybrid campaign started much earlier. No one wanted to see it.” “Modern warfare is asymmetric in nature,” Uhtegi told me. “It is difficult to find the enemy forces on the ground. It is difficult to identify them, fix their position and destroy them. But this is what we must prepare for here. Like Afghanistan, Iraq—but here.” “There are always these discussions. Like, yeah. The Russians can get to Tallinn in two days. ... Maybe. [The Estonian capital is about 125 miles from the Russian border.] But they can’t get all of Estonia in two days. They can get to Tallinn, and behind them, we will cut their communication lines and supplies lines and everything else.” That dead-eyed Baltic stare fixes me again. “They can get to Tallinn in two days. But they will die in Tallinn. And they know this. … They will get fire from every corner, at every step.” But Uhtegi believes deterring Russia requires every Estonian’s participation—not just the military. “The bad thing is the panic. We try to explain to people: Resistance in times of war starts today. It starts with resilience. We must be ready for everything and teach people what to do if something happens.” “I don’t know what it would be like if the Russians really start to fight,” Uhtegi told me as we walked out into the clearing skies, the Freedom Cross now glowing above the square. “Just that every Estonian will fight.”

The Estonians have been preparing for war in earnest for about three years. Adult citizens are receiving resistance training. Weapons are being secretly stored.

Estonia, just like Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania, understands what Russian occupation truly means. None of these nations have any intention of reprising that nightmare again.

The downside is that ~30% of Estonia is ethnic Russian. One of the major enduring consequences of Russian military and administrative occupation.
 
Hell, y’all we saw this coming. Estonia is a NATO member. Trump is planning to give those poor bastards up to Putin during their double secret meeting. Putin will wait until Trump cowards out on NATO. Meanwhile the Trump/GOP Congress will do nothing to stop Trump from further destroying the USA.
 
‘They Will Die in Tallinn’: Estonia Girds for War With Russia

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The Estonians have been preparing for war in earnest for about three years. Adult citizens are receiving resistance training. Weapons are being secretly stored.

Estonia, just like Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania, understands what Russian occupation truly means. None of these nations have any intention of reprising that nightmare again.

The downside is that ~30% of Estonia is ethnic Russian. One of the major enduring consequences of Russian military and administrative occupation.

Estonia has a lot to be concerned over. NATO will come to their defense. President Obama sent a large number of troops and equipment to the Baltic States to help deter Putin and his aggression.

I'm very confident that the US and the rest of NATO will be there if they need us. Trump's rhetoric about NATO be damned.
 
his is in no small part why U.S. Special Forces have committed new resources to the Baltics, including Estonia: to learn from local experience, and to challenge America’s thinking about Russia and what the U.S. can do to build a new kind of deterrence against hybrid threats
That's really interesting thank you Rogue.


I doubt Russia will invade until such a time there is enough civil unrest to warrant a "peace keeping" force. With 30% Estonians ethnic Russian it provides Russia with plenty of room to stir dissent and Estonia is wise to be on their guard.
 
In defending itself? Or relying on Trump for backup?

Why would they be relying on Trump? They've been disgruntled since Obama was in office and they never indicated they were relying on him. Actually, if you read the story, they're relying on themselves.

More likely - they're just taking part in the old tried and true bluster.

Why would you even bring Trump into it? Odd.
 
Estonia is indefensible - that's just a fact of geography. NATO has a few hundred troops there and a few aircraft - they're too few in number and too close to Russia to stand any chance at all in a conflict. This is why the admission of weak front line states like Estonia to NATO was a terrible mistake in de-stabilising Europe.

The good news is that Russia has not got the slightest intention of doing anything in Estonia. As always, people are hyping a non existent threat for various purposes.
 
Estonia is indefensible - that's just a fact of geography. NATO has a few hundred troops there and a few aircraft - they're too few in number and too close to Russia to stand any chance at all in a conflict. This is why the admission of weak front line states like Estonia to NATO was a terrible mistake in de-stabilising Europe.

The good news is that Russia has not got the slightest intention of doing anything in Estonia. As always, people are hyping a non existent threat for various purposes.

Maybe it is because it is not defendable that Estonia CHOSE to be part of NATO....
 
The good news is that Russia has not got the slightest intention of doing anything in Estonia. As always, people are hyping a non existent threat for various purposes.

Exactly what previous Russians here said about Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria.
 
Exactly what previous Russians here said about Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria.

In Georgia the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

In Ukraine the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

In Syria, Russia is there perfectly legally at the request of the government. The US is there, on Syrian sovereign territory, illegally.
 
If Russia were to attack in the Baltic, the only strategic country is Lithuania. The rest are nothing but money and man power wasting.... Putin ain't that stupid. As long as Lithuania does not mess with Russian access to Kaliningrad, then nothing will happen.

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In Georgia the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

In Ukraine the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

:roll: Everyone ... read the above and let it soak in. Westphalian reminds me of a Politburo member from the Soviet era.

In Syria, Russia is there perfectly legally at the request of the government. The US is there, on Syrian sovereign territory, illegally.

Russian cluster-bombing (banned) of populated Syrian cities better fits a description of genocide. War crimes certainly. Will you also do this to Kyiv and Tallinn?

[video=youtube;YegxUegrI_4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?YegxUegrI_4[/video]
 
In Georgia the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

Russia accused Georgia of committing "genocide" in South Ossetia. In December 2008, the figures were revised down to a total of 162 South Ossetian casualties by the Investigative Committee of the Prosecutor's Office of the Russian Federation.

After the war displaced a 192,000 people including both Ossetians and Georgians and 224 Georgian civilians killed and 15 missing, 547 injured...

In Ukraine the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

A lie.

In Syria, Russia is there perfectly legally at the request of the government. The US is there, on Syrian sovereign territory, illegally.

The US is fighting ISIS.
 
Cue the Putinistas..

Maybe they wilii claim Estonia needs to be invaded to protect the Russian speaking minority.

Or perhaps the territory is historically Russian.

All three Baltic nations must be nervous, given the direction things seem to be moving. And given Russia's history of ruling a buffer between them and Europe.
 
All three Baltic nations must be nervous, given the direction things seem to be moving. And given Russia's history of ruling a buffer between them and Europe.

Indeed...

Russian paranoia is rooted deep. On one hand I can't blame them after the Mongols, the Swedes, the Teutonic Knights, the Golden Horde, Napoleon and Hitler did to Mother Russia...

But someone noted wisely... We go for allies... Russia goes for client states...
 
Indeed...

Russian paranoia is rooted deep. On one hand I can't blame them after the Mongols, the Swedes, the Teutonic Knights, the Golden Horde, Napoleon and Hitler did to Mother Russia...

But someone noted wisely... We go for allies... Russia goes for client states...

Their best defense has always been a large territory to retreat across, scorching the earth and letting a long supply line in a Russian winter teach their invader not to do that again. Hitler was a student of Napoleon and he did the same damned thing Napoleon did.
And Putin knows his history too.
 
Their best defense has always been a large territory to retreat across, scorching the earth and letting a long supply line in a Russian winter teach their invader not to do that again. Hitler was a student of Napoleon and he did the same damned thing Napoleon did.
And Putin knows his history too.

well said...
 
One of our colleagues mentioned the alleged Russian use of cluster bombs, but here's the factual reality of the US position on cluster bombs - they refuse to implement a ban:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-u...tely-delay-ban-on-cluster-bombs-idUKKBN1DU2FA

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon will indefinitely delay a ban on the use of older types of cluster bombs due to take effect on Jan. 1, 2019, officials said, arguing that safety improvements in munitions technology failed to advance enough to replace older stockpiles.

Reuters has seen a copy of the memo changing U.S. policy and confirmed the changes with Pentagon officials.

“Although the Department seeks to field a new generation of more highly reliable munitions, we cannot risk mission failure or accept the potential of increased military and civilian casualties by forfeiting the best available capabilities,” the Pentagon memo says.
 
Did you know Estonia's primary military rifle is the old American M-14.
Just a cool bit of trivia.
 
If Russia were to attack in the Baltic, the only strategic country is Lithuania. The rest are nothing but money and man power wasting.... Putin ain't that stupid. As long as Lithuania does not mess with Russian access to Kaliningrad, then nothing will happen.

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This is a good post which makes several good points.

The Baltics are not exactly flush with natural resources or hugely important strategically, and there's no way Russia is interested.


But there are many options short of old fashioned invasion. One of them is civil unrest among Russian speakers in Latvia or Estonia. It's easy to see how much conflict this could cause as no doubt Russia would quickly be accused of aiding and abetting.

But let's ask ourselves this. The Baltics would be quick to try to invoke collective NATO self defence. But who seriously believes that the US should, or would, risk direct conflict with Russia over some de-populating states 4,000 miles from the US east coast? Would Americans be prepared to risk starting a conflict which could lead to the destruction of America, of them, of their children, over some grey conflict in a place where nobody lives and nobody has heard of?

I don't think so. That's why the Baltics can never be secure until they re-construct a positive relationship with Russia.
 
In Georgia the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

In Ukraine the Russian intervention halted a genocide.

In Syria, Russia is there perfectly legally at the request of the government. The US is there, on Syrian sovereign territory, illegally.

:lamo

Bull****.

Any evidence for your claims that there was a "genocide" going on in either Georgia or Ukraine?
 
This is a good post which makes several good points.

The Baltics are not exactly flush with natural resources or hugely important strategically, and there's no way Russia is interested.


But there are many options short of old fashioned invasion. One of them is civil unrest among Russian speakers in Latvia or Estonia. It's easy to see how much conflict this could cause as no doubt Russia would quickly be accused of aiding and abetting.

But let's ask ourselves this. The Baltics would be quick to try to invoke collective NATO self defence. But who seriously believes that the US should, or would, risk direct conflict with Russia over some de-populating states 4,000 miles from the US east coast? Would Americans be prepared to risk starting a conflict which could lead to the destruction of America, of them, of their children, over some grey conflict in a place where nobody lives and nobody has heard of?

I don't think so. That's why the Baltics can never be secure until they re-construct a positive relationship with Russia.

Ah yes, the old "Do you want to die for Danzig" argument. Unfortunately for you and the other Putin fanboys, nobody's buying it.
 
Ah yes, the old "Do you want to die for Danzig" argument. Unfortunately for you and the other Putin fanboys, nobody's buying it.

The Baltic states buy it - which is why they're so desperate for the US to station as many Americans there as possible.

Also, it's easy to sit in the US pledging un-dying allegiance to a place you've probably never been remotely near, when you know full well that there is no current prospect of conflict with Russia.

But talk is cheap. I don't think you'd be quite so sanguine if you thought that the US actually might directly attack Russia in defence of the Baltics. Don't be casual about war - not war with a power capable of destroying Uncle Sam. You shouldn't want that.
 
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