• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.K. woman dies

Yup, I dont trust the UK government propaganda one bit on this. There is no conceivable reason why the Russians would want to poison somebody else, and the UK has no evidence whatsoever that Russia is behind this latest incident, just accusations.

The Russians probably didn't want to poison anyone else. Just the Skripals. But they contaminated something and the new couple came across it (a container?) and touched it. Novochok must come in contact with skin to kill.

Since the authorities haven't found the second contaminant yet, that means it is still somewhere in this area, as the two Russian assassins left the UK (March 4) immediately after the Skripal job.
 
The Russians probably didn't want to poison anyone else. Just the Skripals. But they contaminated something and the new couple came across it (a container?) and touched it. Novochok must come in contact with skin to kill.

Since the authorities haven't found the second contaminant yet, that means it is still somewhere in this area, as the two Russian assassins left the UK (March 4) immediately after the Skripal job.


You should work for the police - you know a lot more than they do ;).


Or are you following the script used for Litvinenko?
 
You know very well that is patently untrue.

Even Porton Down admitted to having made samples, and numerous other states made it.

But of course. That wonderful Putin regime wouldn't do something so terrible in the UK as they carpet bomb cities in Syria.

You would have us believe the UK government is poisoning its own citizens. The Skripal incident cost ~$10 million to date. Your apologia doesn't wash.

The Skripal assassins got sloppy and contaminated something they probably didn't intend to. The death of Dawn Sturgess is now a consequence of their sloppiness
 
But of course. That wonderful Putin regime wouldn't do something so terrible in the UK as they carpet bomb cities in Syria.

You would have us believe the UK government is poisoning its own citizens. The Skripal incident cost ~$10 million to date. Your apologia doesn't wash.

The Skripal assassins got sloppy and contaminated something they probably didn't intend to. The death of Dawn Sturgess is now a consequence of their sloppiness

Cui bono?


Why would Russia want to kill some washed out UK intelligence service hack just before the World Cup?
 
The Russians probably didn't want to poison anyone else. Just the Skripals. But they contaminated something and the new couple came across it (a container?) and touched it. Novochok must come in contact with skin to kill.

Pure speculation.

Since the authorities haven't found the second contaminant yet, that means it is still somewhere in this area, as the two Russian assassins left the UK (March 4) immediately after the Skripal job.

What 2 Russian assassins? Have you got a news link to any evidence presented?
 
Try a quick trip into reality. UK Press promoted Iraq War and WMD. UK denied torture. UK denied colluding with Bush to precipitate the Iraq War. Libya, Syria, etc. A media famous for blatant lies and here we have Porton Down 10 miles or less away from both events and you want to blame Russia, about a thousand miles away. UK's historical duplicity in the Media has to be recognized and makes them unreliable purveyors of "NEWS?", without airtight and unarguable facts and there are none as regards the Skripals or the 2 recent victims. The UK MoD has censored any and all info to cross check their stories and that is enough to cast shade on their credibility. The anti Russia, anti Putin agenda is making money for the MIC at the expense of the honest citizens of the World.
/

Two wrongs don't make a right. I know that that is a very difficult concept for you.
 
Two wrongs don't make a right. I know that that is a very difficult concept for you.

How about the concept of facts. No evidence has been presented to incriminate Russia. Baseless accusations by Media and politicians. Show me the evidence. Chemical signature of the nerve agent. A conspirator arrested. There is nothing. Scurrilous and unsubstantiated statements by politicians and only accomplished liars can be politicians, so that can be dismissed. Show me the evidence. Not opinions. Not accusations. Hard proof. You can't!
/
 
"
How about the concept of facts. No evidence has been presented to incriminate Russia. Baseless accusations by Media and politicians. Show me the evidence. Chemical signature of the nerve agent. A conspirator arrested. There is nothing. Scurrilous and unsubstantiated statements by politicians and only accomplished liars can be politicians, so that can be dismissed. Show me the evidence. Not opinions. Not accusations. Hard proof. You can't!"



LMAO you're asking me that?! :lamo


You can't produce any facts. Gosh, who could have known?
/
 
How about the concept of facts. No evidence has been presented to incriminate Russia. Baseless accusations by Media and politicians. Show me the evidence.
I agree entirely.

On that point, can we return to your accusations about Porton Down? Do you have any evidence, even a viable hypothesis, linking any individuals or organisations based at that location to support your earlier claim that it is “the prime suspect”? Practice what you preach.
 
I agree entirely.

On that point, can we return to your accusations about Porton Down? Do you have any evidence, even a viable hypothesis, linking any individuals or organisations based at that location to support your earlier claim that it is “the prime suspect”? Practice what you preach.

Porton Down is a chemical warfare lab, ergo, nerve agents are in house. The proximity of Porton Down to the events at hand must be recognized. Disgruntled employees are common as horse turds. Had Skripal become a liability to UK? These would be the first circumstantial facts to be analyzed by competent investigators. The Russian accusations are a blatant coordinated MEDIA attack with much less circumstantial linkage than Porton Down. UK history, what happened to David Kelley? As regards "practice what you preach" this info has simply been ignored by the MEDIA and the UK political class. It's common knowledge, but ignored by omission. MEDIA agenda narrative management. Free Press is not in the ball game. MoD "D" letters are censorship. Gosh, why would censorship be necessary?????
/
/
 
Porton Down is a chemical warfare lab, ergo, nerve agents are in house. The proximity of Porton Down to the events at hand must be recognized. Disgruntled employees are common as horse turds. Had Skripal become a liability to UK?
There is an MOD facility there which includes military research labs yes. There are unrelated MOD, public and private facilities on the site too. You need to be less casual with the targets; you risk lumping thousands of innocent people into your accusations.

Without any other context, I see no reason to assume the proximity of the site is anything other than coincidental. If the attack was specifically targeted, the location of the targets would be irrelevant and if it wasn’t, it would be somewhat foolish of them to defecate on their own doorstep.

A disgruntled employee is a possibility of course but it’s difficult to see what they motive would be for such a limited and oddly targeted attack. Anyway, that would primarily shift the responsibility on to that individual employee.

There’s nothing to suggest the Skripals were a liability to the UK and you’d be getting in to quite a grand conspiracy there to just base it on an unanswered question.

These would be the first circumstantial facts to be analyzed by competent investigators.
For all we know they were. There’s a distinction between the police investigation and public statements from politicians. You’ve still not backed up your accusation that “Porton Down” (or any as-yet unnamed individuals or organisations working there) should be the prime suspect.

The Russian accusations are a blatant coordinated MEDIA attack with much less circumstantial linkage than Porton Down.
It’s certainly propaganda but I’d question “much less”. The primary target was an ex-Russia agent and the poison was of Russian design (regardless of it being made elsewhere). An official act by the Russia government is a stretch with no definitive evidence but no less so that an official act by (someone at) Porton Down. Some kind of Russia source of the material, regardless of who used it and why, seems at least as likely.

As regards "practice what you preach" this info has simply been ignored by the MEDIA and the UK political class.
You clearly don’t understand the phrase. I’m not denying that the media and politicians have acted poorly in repose to this. I’m saying that you’re acting just as poorly so are in no moral position to condemn them. You can attack their propaganda or promote your own. You can’t do both.
 
There is an MOD facility there which includes military research labs yes. There are unrelated MOD, public and private facilities on the site too. You need to be less casual with the targets; you risk lumping thousands of innocent people into your accusations.

Without any other context, I see no reason to assume the proximity of the site is anything other than coincidental. If the attack was specifically targeted, the location of the targets would be irrelevant and if it wasn’t, it would be somewhat foolish of them to defecate on their own doorstep.

A disgruntled employee is a possibility of course but it’s difficult to see what they motive would be for such a limited and oddly targeted attack. Anyway, that would primarily shift the responsibility on to that individual employee.

There’s nothing to suggest the Skripals were a liability to the UK and you’d be getting in to quite a grand conspiracy there to just base it on an unanswered question.

For all we know they were. There’s a distinction between the police investigation and public statements from politicians. You’ve still not backed up your accusation that “Porton Down” (or any as-yet unnamed individuals or organisations working there) should be the prime suspect.

It’s certainly propaganda but I’d question “much less”. The primary target was an ex-Russia agent and the poison was of Russian design (regardless of it being made elsewhere). An official act by the Russia government is a stretch with no definitive evidence but no less so that an official act by (someone at) Porton Down. Some kind of Russia source of the material, regardless of who used it and why, seems at least as likely.

You clearly don’t understand the phrase. I’m not denying that the media and politicians have acted poorly in repose to this. I’m saying that you’re acting just as poorly so are in no moral position to condemn them. You can attack their propaganda or promote your own. You can’t do both.[/QUOTE]

Au contraire! Gov'ts have condemned Russia with accusations with no more relevance than my accusations against Porton Down. No evidence and punished as guilty wiht sanctions, etc. I understand the phrase precisely and it is basis of the argument. I haven't pronounced anyone at Porton Down guilty nor sanctioned anyone. I have made obvious the folly of the UK MEDIA and politicians and that is the point. I am in the moral position to condemn them. An objective viewpoint.
/
 
Try a quick trip into reality. UK Press promoted Iraq War and WMD. UK denied torture. UK denied colluding with Bush to precipitate the Iraq War. Libya, Syria, etc. A media famous for blatant lies and here we have Porton Down 10 miles or less away from both events and you want to blame Russia, about a thousand miles away. UK's historical duplicity in the Media has to be recognized and makes them unreliable purveyors of "NEWS?", without airtight and unarguable facts and there are none as regards the Skripals or the 2 recent victims. The UK MoD has censored any and all info to cross check their stories and that is enough to cast shade on their credibility. The anti Russia, anti Putin agenda is making money for the MIC at the expense of the honest citizens of the World.
/

There are no honest folks in government. Including Trump.
 
There’s nothing to suggest the Skripals were a liability to the UK and you’d be getting in to quite a grand conspiracy there to just base it on an unanswered question.

DaveFagan excels here at DP in conspiracy theory, anti-Western rhetoric, and Russian apologia.

The UK had no beef with Sergei Skripal. After all, he was a double-agent and worked for MI6 (1995-2004). He was eventually arrested in Russia (2004), convicted of treason (2006), and sentenced (2006) to 13 years in a maximum security prison. In 2010, Skripal and three other Russians were swapped-out in an exchange of ten Russian espionage agents imprisoned in the United States (one of them being the notorious fashion model and spy, Anna Vasilyevna Chapman). Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were granted residency in the UK. They lived quiet, peaceful lives until someone tried to assassinate them with the Russian nerve-agent Novichok on 4 March 2018. A British Sergeant Investigator was also poisoned accidentally. All survived. Not because there is an antidote, but only due to sheer luck and the diligence of the doctors and nurses attending them. Another Skripal daughter, Viktoria, still lives in Russia and had asked her father and sister to return. They had refused.

The UK had no obvious motive to assassinate Sergei Skripal. If the UK government had tired of him, the Skripal's could have been deported back to Russia. One must also be cognizant of the fact that this method of assassination released an extremely lethal nerve-agent in the midst of populated areas. Indeed, a police investigator was also seriously poisoned on 4 March at the Skripal home. This assassination attempt containment/decontamination cost the UK government a minimum of $10 million dollars with over 40 different agencies involved. The Novichok used was weaponized by a state, as lethal as Sarin, very difficult to detect, and exceedingly persistent. It make no sense whatsoever for UK authorities to unleash such a potent killing agent within the UK population. The Skripals were poisoned in early March. This new Novichok poisoning occurred on 29/30 June. Two additional people have now been felled and one has already died. The Novichok agent employed on 4 March has a released-persistence of at least 4 months. That is extraordinary. Even if Porton Down had been able to synthesize such a lethal strain of Novichok (never reported as doing so by the OPCW), releasing it in the UK population was unnecessary (an "accident" would have been optimal) and highly dangerous and damaging to the UK government if such a story ever leaked out.

Russia did have motive (vengeance), UK assassination experience using an exotic poison - Alexander Litvinenko), and the greatest research/production history (Shikhany/Yasenevo/Sosenskoye) with Novichok. Two Russians (unidentified publicly) left the UK via airliner on the night of March 4. What seems to have occurred is the March 4 assassins accidentally contaminated something either before the assassination attempt, or they discarded the Novichok container (it would probably be small cylinder) after the dirty Skripal deed was done. After all, why take a second chance of airport detection on exit from the UK? Moscow has a long and lurid history of murdering journalists, activists, and what they consider traitors. On 7 July 2018, another Russian dissident who was suing the Russian state airline Aeroflot (he was to be awarded £5 million) was found strangled to death in London on his court date.

To put it bluntly and succinctly, the Kremlin had motive, opportunity, vast experience with the exotic killing agent applied, and a long history of domestic/foreign assassination activity.
 
Russia did have motive (vengeance), UK assassination experience using an exotic poison - Alexander Litvinenko), and the greatest research/production history (Shikhany/Yasenevo/Sosenskoye) with Novichok. Two Russians (unidentified publicly) left the UK via airliner on the night of March 4. What seems to have occurred is the March 4 assassins accidentally contaminated something either before the assassination attempt, or they discarded the Novichok container (it would probably be small cylinder) after the dirty Skripal deed was done. After all, why take a second chance of airport detection on exit from the UK? Moscow has a long and lurid history of murdering journalists, activists, and what they consider traitors. On 7 July 2018, another Russian dissident who was suing the Russian state airline Aeroflot (he was to be awarded £5 million) was found strangled to death in London on his court date.

To put it bluntly and succinctly, the Kremlin had motive, opportunity, vast experience with the exotic killing agent applied, and a long history of domestic/foreign assassination activity.


Two Russians left the UK on an aircraft? :roll:

The Novichuk 'cylinder' was discarded by the criminal party before leaving the UK.

Thousands of British citizens left the UK on aircraft that same day, along with hundreds of US citizens. They haven't been named but they definitely did.
 
Porton Down is a chemical warfare lab, ergo, nerve agents are in house. The proximity of Porton Down to the events at hand must be recognized. Disgruntled employees are common as horse turds. Had Skripal become a liability to UK? These would be the first circumstantial facts to be analyzed by competent investigators. The Russian accusations are a blatant coordinated MEDIA attack with much less circumstantial linkage than Porton Down. UK history, what happened to David Kelley? As regards "practice what you preach" this info has simply been ignored by the MEDIA and the UK political class. It's common knowledge, but ignored by omission. MEDIA agenda narrative management. Free Press is not in the ball game. MoD "D" letters are censorship. Gosh, why would censorship be necessary?????
/
/

Now disgruntled employees are in the mix...

Comic Gold.

So a disgruntled employee decided to try to kill Skripal and two random druggie because....

FALSE FLAG, CIA, MI6....
 
Two Russians left the UK on an aircraft? :roll:

The Novichuk 'cylinder' was discarded by the criminal party before leaving the UK.

Thousands of British citizens left the UK on aircraft that same day, along with hundreds of US citizens. They haven't been named but they definitely did.

What?

Are you trying to out DaveFagan DaveFagan?

I guess RT.com hasn't worked out their propaganda points and you two are just winging it.
 
What?

Are you trying to out DaveFagan DaveFagan?

I guess RT.com hasn't worked out their propaganda points and you two are just winging it.


Presume you mean Out-Rogue Rogue - because he's making it up.
 
So, your EVIDENCE it was not Russian?

It is necessary to prove it is Russian. No proof has been submitted. Zip. Zero. Nada. As I have stated repeatedly. Porton Down is a chemical warfare weapons lab and we are talking about a chemical warfare weapon. Porton Down less than 10 miles from each event..
/
 
It is necessary to prove it is Russian. No proof has been submitted. Zip. Zero. Nada. As I have stated repeatedly. Porton Down is a chemical warfare weapons lab and we are talking about a chemical warfare weapon. Porton Down less than 10 miles from each event..
/

So, no EVIDENCE it is not Russian....

Just the usual RT inspired "Throw **** against the wall" approach.

Have you EVIDENCE there was that specific never agent at Porton Down?

No.

Have you EVIDENCE any nerve agent of ANY type was taken out of Porton Down.

No.
 
So, no EVIDENCE it is not Russian....

Just the usual RT inspired "Throw **** against the wall" approach.

Have you EVIDENCE there was that specific never agent at Porton Down?

No.

Have you EVIDENCE any nerve agent of ANY type was taken out of Porton Down.

No.


Do you operate on the basis that Russia must be guilty unless it can prove its innocence?


Fishking has pointed out facts which might suggest other parties are responsible - but unlike the Russia haters in London, he has not specifically attributed blame.
 
Back
Top Bottom