UK considers arming rural police routinely

Frontline police officers will carry handguns for the first time to cope with the terrorist threat in rural areas, under plans being considered by chief constables.
Officers responding to emergencies in remote locations where firearm units cannot be deployed quickly would be routinely armed. The Times. (Paid article)

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I'm not in favour of armed rural police, even as a pro gun ownership person. For me this would change the nature of the UK bobby on the beat.

I would rather have more ordinary bobbies patrolling the street and a reversal in the cuts in police numbers than have us go down this route. I also don't see the numbers of armed crimes in the countryside to justify a nationwide arming of rural police.

Infinite Chaos said:

I'm not in favour of armed rural police, even as a pro gun ownership person. For me this would change the nature of the UK bobby on the beat.

I would rather have more ordinary bobbies patrolling the street and a reversal in the cuts in police numbers than have us go down this route. I also don't see the numbers of armed crimes in the countryside to justify a nationwide arming of rural police.

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Is it weird, being pro-gun and an avid shooter myself, to say that I love that this discussion is happening in the world? I mean, it might mean the end of an era, but the idea that police still walk around somewhere unarmed... Damn, man. I'd fight for it too, so long as it is safe enough for the cops to do so.

OlNate said:

Is it weird, being pro-gun and an avid shooter myself, to say that I love that this discussion is happening in the world? I mean, it might mean the end of an era, but the idea that police still walk around somewhere unarmed... Damn, man. I'd fight for it too, so long as it is safe enough for the cops to do so.

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From what I've heard, they aren't questioning the safety of the cops, but rather the safety of rural citizens that live too far away from the large cities to be reached quickly by armed vehicles when the need arises. This, like many things in our modern world, is the result of terrorism at our door.

What rural terrorism?



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PeteEU said:

What rural terrorism?

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Exactly. The last such example I can remember - may be others since - would be when Derrick Born went crazy some 50 miles from us here and used his legally owned firearms on a series of passersby on his spree in 2010.

Certainly there haven't been any rural terror attacks from what others may suspect in terms of muslim or immigrant terrorists.

Makes no sense whatsoever.
It is the URBAN police who need to be armed, not the rural ones.

Infinite Chaos said:

I'm not in favour of armed rural police, even as a pro gun ownership person. For me this would change the nature of the UK bobby on the beat.

I would rather have more ordinary bobbies patrolling the street and a reversal in the cuts in police numbers than have us go down this route. I also don't see the numbers of armed crimes in the countryside to justify a nationwide arming of rural police.

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The proposal was only in relation to rural areas where armed response vehicles couldn't get to quickly enough and would only involve a few officers.

Urban police already have numerous armed response vehicles, tactical support teams and specialist counter terrorist firearms officers.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Makes no sense whatsoever.
It is the URBAN police who need to be armed, not the rural ones.

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Just clarifying for you, every city and town has armed response units that can quickly be deployed where there is trouble. Even the majority of our police don't want to be armed routinely.

Brave New World said:

The proposal was only in relation to rural areas where armed response vehicles couldn't get to quickly enough and would only involve a few officers.

Urban police already have numerous armed response vehicles, tactical support teams and specialist counter terrorist firearms officers.

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Thanks, of that I'm aware but those rural areas are highly unlikely to have terrorist attacks (only ones I can think of would be lone wolf actors like the guy who murdered Jo Cox or the more extreme BNP / NF / Combat 18 / National Action types.

Brave New World said:

The proposal was only in relation to rural areas where armed response vehicles couldn't get to quickly enough and would only involve a few officers.

Urban police already have numerous armed response vehicles, tactical support teams and specialist counter terrorist firearms officers.

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Ahhhhh...okay.

In the immortal words of American late night legend Johnny Carson: "I did not know that!"



Okay, that's Dana Carvey imitating Johnny Carson. I couldn't find a short enough Carson clip

Infinite Chaos said:

Thanks, of that I'm aware but those rural areas are highly unlikely to have terrorist attacks (only ones I can think of would be lone wolf actors like the guy who murdered Jo Cox or the more extreme BNP / NF / Combat 18 / National Action types.

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Rural areas could easily be targeted, as terrorists like to exploit any weakness.

As for lone wolf gun men the Derek Bird case in rural Cumbria took the police many hours to bring to an end, and helicopter support and units from the Civil Nuclear Constabulary from Sellafield had to be drafted in to help.

Cumbria Shootings - Wikipedia

In order to have a comprehenive policy to meet all eventualities the police must include rural areas, and it should be noted that in the past the police did actually have greater access to firearms, as they were kept in station armouries and signed out as needed, and this included rural areas. In Victorian London the police on night duty would often carry a firearm known as a Comforter.

Today we have professional forearms units, that operate 24 hours a day, in armed response units and specialist units and they are supported by special forces units in relation to any terrorist attack.

An SAS unit is permanently based in London and there is also an SAS Airborne Unit on 24/7 standby to fly to any terrorist incident in the UK, it's code name is 'Blue Thunder', in terms of Maritime Incidents the Special Boat Service

SAS Develops Airborne Counter Terrorism Mission - Elite Forces

The idea behind arming some rural officers would be to act as a stop gap until other armed units could respond.

HowardBThiname said:

From what I've heard, they aren't questioning the safety of the cops, but rather the safety of rural citizens that live too far away from the large cities to be reached quickly by armed vehicles when the need arises. This, like many things in our modern world, is the result of terrorism at our door.

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Huh...will have to research this one, as I wasn't aware of an uptick in rural terrorism that would change such a long standing tradition...but if true, it's a good point, Howie...I'll have to see if the numbers support it, of course...

OlNate said:

Huh...will have to research this one, as I wasn't aware of an uptick in rural terrorism that would change such a long standing tradition...but if true, it's a good point, Howie...I'll have to see if the numbers support it, of course...

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This is the actual National Police Chiefs Council statement on the issue, indeed arming rural police is just an option at the moment and the police recognise that rural terrorism is more unlkikely however they state that it is their duty to prepare properly for any eventuality.

National Police Chiefs Council said:

"The overwhelming majority of England and Wales has very good coverage from armed response vehicles. We are continuing to review and discuss options with some forces with harder to reach rural communities, including arming of some response officers.

"Any change would decided by chief constables based on threat and risk and with wide consultation. Our analysis suggests this is not necessary now but it remains an option on the table.

“Overall, though, forces are now better equipped to respond swiftly to serious threats to public safety, such as the recent terror attacks.

Armed policing numbers boosted with more specially trained officers - National Police Chiefs Council

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It also should be noted that British Transport Police have also increased their armed capability and now have armed hubs in Manchester and Birmingham as well as London.

Armed transport police for Manchester and Birmingham - BBC News

Brave New World said:

This is the actual National Police Chiefs Council statement on the issue, indeed arming rural police is just an option at the moment and the police recognise that rural terrorism is more unlkikely however they state that it is there duty to prepare properly for any eventuality.

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Sounds like a measured approach. Sometimes the word terrorism gets thrown around to justify a lot of overreaction - I mean, look at the rights given up in America under the Patriot act, despite terrorism being a statistically insignificant cause of death in America, which is why I push back against it sometimes.

And I don't have a huge problem with the initiative, as laid out...but allow me a moment's lamentation. I've always admired the resourcefulness, bravery, and professionalism of the UK's police force, in regards to not being armed. I think it said a lot about the UK, all of it positive. Reality may be driving the change, but I think it's still worth feeling sad for, and hoping that fear isn't a factor in the decision.

OlNate said:

Sounds like a measured approach. Sometimes the word terrorism gets thrown around to justify a lot of overreaction - I mean, look at the rights given up in America under the Patriot act, despite terrorism being a statistically insignificant cause of death in America, which is why I push back against it sometimes.

And I don't have a huge problem with the initiative, as laid out...but allow me a moment's lamentation. I've always admired the resourcefulness, bravery, and professionalism of the UK's police force, in regards to not being armed. I think it said a lot about the UK, all of it positive. Reality may be driving the change, but I think it's still worth feeling sad for, and hoping that fear isn't a factor in the decision.

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It wpouldn't onvolve arming the local Bobby, it would be response cars which support the local rural police officer. Each area has a response team, which also deal with traffic accidents and other incidents, it would be these officers who would either have a firearm holdter or a safe containing firearms i their car. The other option would be to have local armouries where gund could be stored and signed out by local officers at rural police stations.

Infinite Chaos said:

I would rather have more ordinary bobbies patrolling the street and a reversal in the cuts in police numbers than have us go down this route. I also don't see the numbers of armed crimes in the countryside to justify a nationwide arming of rural police.

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TBF - the newly appointed Home Secretary Sajid Javid made an excellent speech to the Police Federation just the other week and police spending is going to become a priority. Javid's own brother is a Chief Superintendent with Avon and Somerset Police.

Home Secretary Police Federation Speech 2018

Brave New World said:

Rural areas could easily be targeted, as terrorists like to exploit any weakness.

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COULD is the important word. The likelihood is very low and thankfully Simon Chesterman, National Police Chiefs' Council lead has stated that arming rural police remains a very low possibility as well as a last resort.

Brave New World said:

As for lone wolf gun men the Derek Bird:

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Yeah, I live in Cumbria and I posted a thread at the time. Several of my students were from the local area and the shock was palpable - however few if any locals feel our police should be armed. It's such a low possibility that I feel would also change our police and the nature of the relationship between police and public - not for the better.

Brave New World said:

~ police spending is going to become a priority ~

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Here, I think the priority should be more ordinary bobbies, more in London to deal with the stabbings.

Infinite Chaos said:

COULD is the important word. The likelihood is very low and thankfully Simon Chesterman, National Police Chiefs' Council lead has stated that arming rural police remains a very low possibility as well as a last resort.

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I refer you to my previous post - "This is the actual National Police Chiefs Council statement on the issue, indeed arming rural police is just an option at the moment and the police recognise that rural terrorism is more unlkikely however they state that it is their duty to prepare properly for any eventuality".

Infinite Chaos said:

Yeah, I live in Cumbria and I posted a thread at the time. Several of my students were from the local area and the shock was palpable - however few if any locals feel our police should be armed. It's such a low possibility that I feel would also change our police and the nature of the relationship between police and public - not for the better.

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Nobody is arguing for all police to be armed just a better response in relation to armed incidents, this could take many forms including some response cars carrying safes with firearms in them or small armouries at some rural police stations where guns can be signed out by trained firearms officers in an emergency. The problem with not having enough armed response is that ambulance and fire crews can not attend scenes until armed police arrive and in some areas this has contributed to deaths and even when the police do arrive further time is taken to make sure the scene is clear.

Police accused of waiting too long over barbecue shootings - The Telegraph

BBC said:

"The police were phoned. The ambulance seemed to take forever to arrive. It turns out the ambulance was parked around the corner for about 15 minutes because they had to wait for a police armed response unit to arrive.

Man wounded in Cambuslang shooting - BBC News

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Infinite Chaos said:

Here, I think the priority should be more ordinary bobbies, more in London to deal with the stabbings.

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London has had the fewest loss of police in the country, indeed there are around 31,000 Metropolitan Police, around 1,500 BTP in London on the Underground and at Rail Stations and around 700 City of London Police, on top of this you have several thousand Special Constables and PCSO's.

The new Home Secetary whose owb brother is a Chief Superintendent with Avon and Somerset Police has promised more resources from central government as a priority, and local authorities have been given the power to raise taxes to pay for more officers, indeed the current London Mayor is doing this already.

Home Secretary Police Federation Speech 2018

Finally it's worth noting that more peole in rural areas have access to firearms as part of their every day lives and employment. Farmers, Gamekeepers, those who shoot game and hunt etc all often have firearms.

Infinite Chaos said:

I'm not in favour of armed rural police, even as a pro gun ownership person. For me this would change the nature of the UK bobby on the beat.

I would rather have more ordinary bobbies patrolling the street and a reversal in the cuts in police numbers than have us go down this route. I also don't see the numbers of armed crimes in the countryside to justify a nationwide arming of rural police.

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Have you been asleep these last fifty years? There are no 'bobbies on the beat'. When we lived in the UK we saw a police car going fast maybe a couple of times a week. Even in the centre of town (Epsom) there were no foot patrols. Oh - and the police station closed at 5 pm and at the weekend.

Infinite Chaos said:

COULD is the important word. The likelihood is very low and thankfully Simon Chesterman, National Police Chiefs' Council lead has stated that arming rural police remains a very low possibility as well as a last resort.



Yeah, I live in Cumbria and I posted a thread at the time. Several of my students were from the local area and the shock was palpable - however few if any locals feel our police should be armed. It's such a low possibility that I feel would also change our police and the nature of the relationship between police and public - not for the better.



Here, I think the priority should be more ordinary bobbies, more in London to deal with the stabbings.

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Perhaps it will only be considered in those areas where the violent crime rate is going up? While it appears that "computer crimes" are down, violent crimes in England and Wales are up.

The rise in crime in England and Wales is accelerating, according to police figures, which show a 14% year-on-year increase in offences recorded by forces across England and Wales.

Knife crime has gone up even more steeply, by 21% in the 12 months to September, and gun crime has risen by 20%, according to quarterly figures released on Thursday.

Police chiefs said the increases – including a 32% rise in domestic burglary to 261,965 offences and an 18% rise in vehicle-related crimes (443,577 offences) alongside the sharp rises in violent crime – marked a turning point after more than 20 years of sustained falls in these categories.

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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/25/knife-and-gun-rises-sharply-in-england-and-wales


So, something appears to be happening here and it's sad that violent crime is going up in the UK but I'm sure the police want to protect the citizens to the best of their ability.

I'm guessing that you'll be correct, if they do add armed officers, it likely will only be where they feel they can't dispatch armed vehicles to quickly protect citizens. Your area will likely be safe with just unarmed bobbies.

Brave New World said:

~ indeed arming rural police is just an option at the moment and the police recognise that rural terrorism is more unlkikely

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We were talking past each other and saying pretty much the same thing.

Brave New World said:

~ Nobody is arguing for all police to be armed just a better response in relation to armed incidents

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Seriously, if you're using very rural as the reasoning, the fastest response to another Derrick Bird type of incident would have been helicopter delivery of a firearms unit. He travelled quickly and through rural roads he knew very well. Cumbria is a large county and one or two armed police or even armed unit car would always be playing catchup - which they were. If I recall from police friends a unit from Carlisle tracked him. The first unit was sent out at 10.13 and within minutes of the first reports of gunfire. At 11.33 - the armed unit reported driving past Bird going the other way and less than 2 hours later he was found dead (last live sighting at 12.30)

A helicopter with an armed unit would (I believe) be a better response.

As for delays - sadly such things can happen, even with an armed unit on the scene. You just can't send people into a scene where there is a huge risk to unarmed paramedics.