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Democracy is dying in Hungary. The rest of the world should worry.

Rogue Valley

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Democracy is dying in Hungary. The rest of the world should worry.

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Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban

April 12, 2018

Democracy is much more fragile than we thought. That's a lesson a lot of post-communist Europe (and heck, the rest of the world, too) is learning right now, none more so than Hungary. Things are so bad there, in fact, that it probably doesn't even make sense for them to talk about this in the present tense anymore. Which is to say that Hungary's democracy is pretty much dead. Sure, it still has free elections, but not fair ones. Prime Minister Viktor Orban has rigged the rules in his favor to such an extent — everything from turning the state broadcaster into a propaganda outlet to changing how elections are decided so they're easier for him to win to even some eyebrow-raising vote totals in a few districts — that his Fidesz party was just able to capture the two-thirds super-majority it needed to rule unimpeded with only 48 percent of the vote. At this point, Hungary might be best described as a dictocracy: a de facto one-party state where others are allowed to compete in elections only on such unequal terms that they basically have no chance of winning. The scariest part, though, is how quickly all this has happened. It was just a decade ago, after all, that Hungary looked like an end-of-history success story. There had been the inevitable bumps along the way, but it had nonetheless managed to move from communism to free-market democracy better than most.

Now, there are two things to understand here. The first is that Fidesz, which has always been just a vehicle for Orban's ambitions, was only one of many right-of-center parties during the country's first foray into multiparty democracy during the 1990s, and not even the most prominent among them. The second, as Harvard professor Daniel Ziblatt has shown, is that democratic breakdowns are often preceded by conservative ones. That's because the absence of a strong party on the right makes it easier for anti-system politicians — those who evince little interest in democratic niceties such as minority rights, the rule of law or even elections themselves — to either take over the system for their own purposes or elbow it aside. Their new slogan is “Hungary First.” Hungary, in other words, is not fascist, but it's not not fascist either. It's somewhere in between, in a place we don't have a good word for yet but will need soon if things keep going this way.

Orban and his Alt-Right Fidesz party are supported by the Putin regime. Another far-right Hungarian party supported by Moscow is Jobbik.

Moscow is doing everything possible to drive political/ideological wedges between the 28 EU nations.

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I must respectfully disagree. Democracy in Hungary is alive and well. And that is the problem. Never confuse "Democracy" (i.e., the people's ability to vote to elect leaders or pass laws) with the rule of law, tolerance, or respect for individual liberty. They are not the same things, though they are often confused for one another. Russia is a democracy. Turkey is a democracy. Venezuela is a Democracy. In all of these nations, citizens have the franchise and can elect their parliamentarians or pass laws via referendums. But in these nations, "Democracy" simply means the political majority being able to vote away the rights of the political minority and to oppress them as they so choose by their vote.

Democracy without a respect for the rule of law and constitutionally-guaranteed and protected liberties of individuals is, in my opinion, no better than living under an absolute monarchy. In some cases, in can be far worse. Because at least in an absolute Monarchy, you are generally only worried about the caprice of a single tyrant. In an unconstrained democracy, the tyranny is spread out to the mob that surrounds you.
 
I must respectfully disagree. Democracy in Hungary is alive and well. And that is the problem. Never confuse "Democracy" (i.e., the people's ability to vote to elect leaders or pass laws) with the rule of law, tolerance, or respect for individual liberty. They are not the same things, though they are often confused for one another. Russia is a democracy. Turkey is a democracy. Venezuela is a Democracy. In all of these nations, citizens have the franchise and can elect their parliamentarians or pass laws via referendums. But in these nations, "Democracy" simply means the political majority being able to vote away the rights of the political minority and to oppress them as they so choose by their vote.

Democracy without a respect for the rule of law and constitutionally-guaranteed and protected liberties of individuals is, in my opinion, no better than living under an absolute monarchy. In some cases, in can be far worse. Because at least in an absolute Monarchy, you are generally only worried about the caprice of a single tyrant. In an unconstrained democracy, the tyranny is spread out to the mob that surrounds you.

What a load of bs. There is no democracy in Hungary and has not been for several elections. The ruling party via the state has hit down all free media outlets, has removed the judiciary to place loyalists in its place instead. The government is full of corruption.. so bad that many foreign firms dont want to do business in the country, because when they bid on projects they know that they wont get the job if Orbans business partners bid for the job. Orban has targeted jews, Muslims and other minorities and worse. He is a dictator in all but name...The fact that his party wins only 48% of the vote, and yet retains a 2/3 super majority in the parliament.. then you know it is not a democracy.

Russia is not a democracy, Turkey is also not a democracy. When the electoral system is rigged to make sure that one party or person is elected no matter what.. then there is no democracy.
 
it's dying in the US too, just in case no one has been paying attention
 
What a load of bs. There is no democracy in Hungary and has not been for several elections. The ruling party via the state has hit down all free media outlets, has removed the judiciary to place loyalists in its place instead. The government is full of corruption.. so bad that many foreign firms dont want to do business in the country, because when they bid on projects they know that they wont get the job if Orbans business partners bid for the job. Orban has targeted jews, Muslims and other minorities and worse. He is a dictator in all but name...The fact that his party wins only 48% of the vote, and yet retains a 2/3 super majority in the parliament.. then you know it is not a democracy.

Russia is not a democracy, Turkey is also not a democracy. When the electoral system is rigged to make sure that one party or person is elected no matter what.. then there is no democracy.

Again. Please read what I wrote beyond the first sentence. To repeat: "Democracy" is just being able to vote for your leaders. Democracy unconstrained by respect for individual liberty or rule of law (what you might call "Liberal Democracy") is simply tyranny of the majority. Nothing you state contradicts what I wrote, so there is really no need to speak at cross purposes.
 
Again. Please read what I wrote beyond the first sentence. To repeat: "Democracy" is just being able to vote for your leaders. Democracy unconstrained by respect for individual liberty or rule of law (what you might call "Liberal Democracy") is simply tyranny of the majority. Nothing you state contradicts what I wrote, so there is really no need to speak at cross purposes.

Baloney. Orban has elections rigged every bit as well as Putin and al-Sisi.
 
That would the respect for the rule of law part he was speaking of, that is not present in those three examples, but democracy is.

And I respectfully disagree. To quote...

Hungary might be best described as a dictocracy: a de facto one-party state where others are allowed to compete in elections only on such unequal terms that they basically have no chance of winning.

Simply because voting is allowed does not make a process "democratic".
 
Democracy has been dying in Europe for a while now. Not surprising.
 
And I respectfully disagree. To quote...



Simply because voting is allowed does not make a process "democratic".

I respectfully accept your disagreement, but I'm not going to argue because I don't completely disagree with you. My lack of argument is due to the media and our societal expectations of the definition of democracy tending to be narrowed and molded more to a Pollyannaish definition for some and a jingoistic definition to others, that reflects our hopes for what democracy represents to in our hearts, more than reality.
 
Democracy is dying in UK, Spain and US. The world doesn't really care what's going on in Hungary.
 
I must respectfully disagree. Democracy in Hungary is alive and well. And that is the problem. Never confuse "Democracy" (i.e., the people's ability to vote to elect leaders or pass laws) with the rule of law, tolerance, or respect for individual liberty. They are not the same things, though they are often confused for one another. Russia is a democracy. Turkey is a democracy. Venezuela is a Democracy. In all of these nations, citizens have the franchise and can elect their parliamentarians or pass laws via referendums. But in these nations, "Democracy" simply means the political majority being able to vote away the rights of the political minority and to oppress them as they so choose by their vote.

Democracy without a respect for the rule of law and constitutionally-guaranteed and protected liberties of individuals is, in my opinion, no better than living under an absolute monarchy. In some cases, in can be far worse. Because at least in an absolute Monarchy, you are generally only worried about the caprice of a single tyrant. In an unconstrained democracy, the tyranny is spread out to the mob that surrounds you.

Very good post.

Westerners incorrectly conflate democracy with freedom, fairness, and justice because that's how we try to implement it. It's just as easily used to inflict the will of a tyrannical majority on a minority. Pakistan is a great example. Christians are on death row in that country for insulting Islam because the majority want it that way.
 
Very good post.

Westerners incorrectly conflate democracy with freedom, fairness, and justice because that's how we try to implement it. It's just as easily used to inflict the will of a tyrannical majority on a minority. Pakistan is a great example. Christians are on death row in that country for insulting Islam because the majority want it that way.

Spoken like a true believer of dictatorships. The whole point of a democracy is freedom, fairness and the rule of law. It is also that the one with most votes wins.. but that last part has been bastardised by would be dictators in the west.. especially in the US by the GOP and its followers. So instead of having a country lead by a majority, you have in Hungary and the US, a country that is lead by the minority... which is the definition of a dictatorship basically. It is no better than Saddam, Assad or any 2 bit dictator around the world who rules the majority via a minority mandate.

The sad fact is, that the 2 countries who have been pushing democracy for over a century are in fact.. not real democracies when it comes down to it. The US system is flawed as we have seen with Bush Jr and Trump.. where the one with the least votes wins. The UK has a system where a party that only has 30% of the overall vote, has a majority of seats in the Parliament... not to mention the un-elected Lords.

Now your example.. Pakistan. It is actually a relatively good democratic state. Its elections are fair, and the majority vote wins... when the military allows there to be a vote that is. And you example of Christians being on death row for insulting Islam.. well Muslims are on death row for the same thing as well.. so while we both can disagree with the law it self, it is not targeting Christians only.. quite the opposite.

Fact is, the ruling party in Hungary got 48% of the vote and yet got over 66% of all seats in Parliament... so not only is your argument about the majority being tyrannical against the minority wrong.. it is in fact the total opposite in Hungary... it is the minority ruling over the majority.

Point is, for the vast majority of the real democratic nations of the world, the democracy we know is based on the rule of law, strong institutions and basic freedoms.
 
Democracies usually end up snuffing themselves out. Its happened in history time and time again. Ancient Athens, Rome, Wiemar Republic, Russia, etc.
 
I must respectfully disagree. Democracy in Hungary is alive and well. And that is the problem. Never confuse "Democracy" (i.e., the people's ability to vote to elect leaders or pass laws) with the rule of law, tolerance, or respect for individual liberty. They are not the same things, though they are often confused for one another. Russia is a democracy. Turkey is a democracy. Venezuela is a Democracy. In all of these nations, citizens have the franchise and can elect their parliamentarians or pass laws via referendums. But in these nations, "Democracy" simply means the political majority being able to vote away the rights of the political minority and to oppress them as they so choose by their vote.

Democracy without a respect for the rule of law and constitutionally-guaranteed and protected liberties of individuals is, in my opinion, no better than living under an absolute monarchy. In some cases, in can be far worse. Because at least in an absolute Monarchy, you are generally only worried about the caprice of a single tyrant. In an unconstrained democracy, the tyranny is spread out to the mob that surrounds you.

Bull**** bull**** bull****...weaponized bull****.
These nations are all republics, not "unconstrained democracies"...there is no such thing as a nation which is an unconstrained democracy. Not even ancient Greece was a pure unconstrained democracy.
Russia a democracy? You've just destroyed any shred of credibility you might have thought you had.

Your malformed opinions stink of Koch, and reek of Bircherism.

The truth is, you despise democracy, in any form whatsoever, and most people don't know why but I do, and I bet a few others smarter than me know, too.

Maybe one or two of them will jump in and offer some input as to why you harbor such a hatred for democracy that you are hell bent on mischaracterizing it as you just did.

Anyone? Anyone? :2wave:
 
Hungary: Thousands march in anti-Orban demo in Budapest

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Massive anti-Orban protest in Budapest, Hungary on 14 April 2018

April 14, 2018

Tens of thousands of people have demonstrated in Budapest against the re-elected right-wing government of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban. Opponents of Mr Orban flooded the capital on Saturday to protest at what they say is an unfair electoral system. The protests come just six days after the governing Fidesz party won two-thirds of the parliamentary seats with half of the national vote. Mr Orban is a strong Eurosceptic who campaigned on an anti-immigration platform. The march was organised through a Facebook group called "We are the majority". Following the large turn-out for Saturday's rally, the organizers have called for a further demonstration next weekend. BBC correspondent Nick Thorpe reported from Budapest that around 100,000 people attended Saturday's protests. Many were brandishing Hungarian and European Union flags. A large number of police were deployed in the capital, including riot officers, however the demonstration remained peaceful.

Speakers who participated in the event denounced what they called Mr Orban's theft of the election, and the corruption and abuse of power they say characterizes his rule. The organizers of the anti-Orban protests have demanded a recount of all ballots, a new election law, a non-partisan public media, and better organised co-operation among parties opposed to the Fidesz government. Many of those who marched the streets to the Hungarian parliament on Saturday were young people. "We want to live in a state of law, where checks and balances are present, we want to live in a real democracy," protest organizer Viktor Gyetvai, 20, told AFP news agency. "This is our last chance to do something for this country," he added.

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Massive anti-Orban protest in Budapest, Hungary on 14 April 2018

Seems there are a few Pro-Russia/Alt-Right trolls in this thread. Much like Putin, Orban had the state media organs flood the airwaves for him (7 days) in the run-up to the election.

Related: Mass Anti-Orban Demonstration Held In Hungary
 
Bull**** bull**** bull****...weaponized bull****.
These nations are all republics, not "unconstrained democracies"...there is no such thing as a nation which is an unconstrained democracy. Not even ancient Greece was a pure unconstrained democracy.
Russia a democracy? You've just destroyed any shred of credibility you might have thought you had.

By "unconstrained democracy" I mean there is no constitutionally guaranteed protections of the civil rights of political (and oftentimes racial/ethnic/religious) minorities. And little to know tolerance for dissenting opinions either in law or in practice. Citizens might have the right to vote for their representatives or leaders (hence, why I call it democracy), as they do in Turkey, Venezuela and Russia, but that vote is simply the vote of the political majority, its representatives, and its leadership arrogating more power to itself over the cries of the political minorities. Make no mistake, I am in no way saying that what is going on in Hungary is good. Just that democracy alone

Your malformed opinions stink of Koch, and reek of Bircherism.

I do not know enough about the Koch brothers or the John Birch Society to comment as to whether my views somehow align with theirs.

The truth is, you despise democracy, in any form whatsoever, and most people don't know why but I do, and I bet a few others smarter than me know, too.

My argument is this: Democracy (the right to vote) without guaranteed constitutional protections of the civil rights or tolerance for minorities is dangerous and will almost inevitably lead to people like Putin, Erdogan, Maduro or Orban seizing power and abusing that power. If you believe my argument lacks merit or is mistaken, please tell me why. But if you simply want to sling ad hominems at me or impute evil motivations to me in order to satisfy some self-righteous urge within yourself, please know I will not act as your masturbatory aid in that matter.
 
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Spoken like a true believer of dictatorships.

I'm a linear person. When a comment strays too far from any recognizable path, I have no idea how to respond.

The whole point of a democracy is freedom, fairness and the rule of law. It is also that the one with most votes wins.. but that last part has been bastardised by would be dictators in the west.. especially in the US by the GOP and its followers. So instead of having a country lead by a majority, you have in Hungary and the US, a country that is lead by the minority... which is the definition of a dictatorship basically. It is no better than Saddam, Assad or any 2 bit dictator around the world who rules the majority via a minority mandate.

The sad fact is, that the 2 countries who have been pushing democracy for over a century are in fact.. not real democracies when it comes down to it. The US system is flawed as we have seen with Bush Jr and Trump.. where the one with the least votes wins. The UK has a system where a party that only has 30% of the overall vote, has a majority of seats in the Parliament... not to mention the un-elected Lords.

You make a decent point that democracy isn't automatically run in 50% + 1 fashion. Some elections (like in Canada) are first-past-the-post, while some (like The Netherlands) have proportional representation. Therefore one can't always use the term "the majority" when talking about the victors of an election. Frequently it is the largest minority.

Now your example.. Pakistan. It is actually a relatively good democratic state. Its elections are fair, and the majority vote wins... when the military allows there to be a vote that is. And you example of Christians being on death row for insulting Islam.. well Muslims are on death row for the same thing as well.. so while we both can disagree with the law it self, it is not targeting Christians only

Most of the Muslims being persecuted and prosecuted in Pakistan are Ismaeli and Ahmadiya, who are considered by the Sunni majority to be apostates. The fact remains that the Sunni majority oppress all others, and they do so via both mob violence and judicially. It is the best example of official, state-run tyranny by a Sunni majority that I can think of, which is why I cited it.

.. quite the opposite.

No. "Quite the opposite" would mean Christians are being encouraged, and we both know that's not the case.
 
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