Tillerson vows no warming with Russia until it leaves Ukraine

Rogue Valley · Dec 10, 2017

Tillerson vows no warming with Russia until it leaves Ukraine

By Carol Morello
December 7. 2017

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson (L) and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov (R)
hold bilateral talks in Vienna on 7 December 2017

VIENNA — The gulf between the United States and Russia showed no signs of narrowing Thursday, as top diplomats from the two countries faced off over a proposed U.N. peacekeeping force in Ukraine. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson vowed that there will be no easing of sanctions on Russia or warming of relations until Moscow stops supporting separatists in eastern Ukraine and abandons the “apparent annexation” of Crimea. “We can have differences in other areas, but when one country invades another, that is a difference that is hard to look past or to reconcile,” Tillerson told reporters at a meeting of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), a group created during the Cold War to encourage dialogue between East and West. “And we’ve made this clear to Russia from the very beginning, that we must address Ukraine,” he said.

In his own speech to the OSCE, Tillerson said civilian deaths and cease-fire violations have risen dramatically over the past year. He noted that an American OSCE paramedic working with an observer group was killed in a land-mine explosion in April. His words about Russia were unstinting. “We should be clear about the source of this violence,” Tillerson said. “Russia is arming, leading, training and fighting alongside anti-government forces. “We call on Russia and its proxies to end the harassment, intimidation and its attacks on the OSCE special monitoring mission,” he added. “We will never accept Russia’s occupation and attempted annexation of Crimea,” Tillerson said. “Crimea-related sanctions will remain in place until Russia returns full control of the peninsula to Ukraine. In eastern Ukraine, we join our European partners in maintaining sanctions until Russia withdraws its forces from the Donbas.” He also made a clear reference to accusations that Russia meddled in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and other elections throughout Europe — charges that Russia has consistently denied.

Posting this thread for reference and posterity. I believe that the Russian invasions of Crimea and Donbas (eastern Ukraine), Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea, and Russia's continued military occupation of Donbas are issues where Tillerson and Trump see things differently. Trump wishes to appease Putin by removing US sanctions on Russia.

Related: Tillerson Says the U.S. Will Never Accept Crimea Annexation - The New York Times

Ukraine - biggest obstacle to normal Russia ties, says Tillerson | Reuters

Mycroft · Dec 10, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
Tillerson vows no warming with Russia until it leaves Ukraine

Posting this thread for reference and posterity. I believe that the Russian invasions of Crimea and Donbas (eastern Ukraine), Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea, and Russia's continued military occupation of Donbas are issues where Tillerson and Trump see things differently. Trump wishes to appease Putin by removing US sanctions on Russia.

Related: Tillerson Says the U.S. Will Never Accept Crimea Annexation - The New York Times

Ukraine - biggest obstacle to normal Russia ties, says Tillerson | Reuters

Wait...

Is Trump a Russian puppet? Or is he a hard-liner about Ukraine?

But tell me...if Trump offers to remove the sanctions in return for Russia vacating Ukraine...is that a bad thing? Is that contrary to what Tillerson says?

rocket88 · Dec 10, 2017

Ukraine as a state has only existed for 25 years. Prior to 1992 it was always part of a Russian state, and Kiev was the first capital of any Russian state. The basic problem is the number of Russians living in "Ukraine." This was never a problem before because Ukraine was always part of the Russian Empire or USSR. There can not he a functioning democracy in Ukraine under the current borders because there will always be a good chance of pro-Russian governments being elected which is not palatable to the hardcore Ukrainians.

Rogue Valley · Dec 10, 2017

rocket88 said:
Ukraine as a state has only existed for 25 years. Prior to 1992 it was always part of a Russian state, and Kiev was the first capital of any Russian state. The basic problem is the number of Russians living in "Ukraine." This was never a problem before because Ukraine was always part of the Russian Empire or USSR. There can not he a functioning democracy in Ukraine under the current borders because there will always be a good chance of pro-Russian governments being elected which is not palatable to the hardcore Ukrainians.

I was in Ukraine earlier this year. While Ukraine does have a significant number of Russian speakers (mostly in the east and Odessa), most still identify as Ukrainian. Ukraine's biggest problem is corruption and the slow pace of reforms.

Ukraine is not going back to the Russian sphere. Poll after poll states this quite clearly.

Putin does not want to annex Donbas. What Putin does want is continued conflict in the east because no nation can be accepted into NATO if there exist any border/territorial disputes (NATO bylaws).

rocket88 · Dec 10, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
I was in Ukraine earlier this year. While Ukraine does have a significant number of Russian speakers (mostly in the east and Odessa), most still identify as Ukrainian. Ukraine's biggest problem is corruption and the slow pace of reforms.

Ukraine is not going back to the Russian sphere. Poll after poll states this quite clearly.

Putin does not want to annex Donbas. What Putin does want is continued conflict in the east because no nation can be accepted into NATO if there exist any border/territorial disputes (NATO bylaws).

NATO shouldn't want Ukraine anyway. They are unable to have a democracy so far.

Rogue Valley · Dec 10, 2017

rocket88 said:
NATO shouldn't want Ukraine anyway. They are unable to have a democracy so far.

Citation? I was in Ukraine during the 2014 elections (President/Legislature) as were thousands of international election monitors. Even Moscow accepted the results.

rocket88 · Dec 10, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
Citation? I was in Ukraine during the 2014 elections (President/Legislature) as were thousands of international election monitors. Even Moscow accepted the results.

Just look at the politics. Twice in the last few years they've had "revolutions" to get rid if a duly elected President because he leaned toward Russia. That's not what they wanted and that's okay, but it's not a healthy democracy.

RetiredUSN · Dec 10, 2017

rocket88 said:
Just look at the politics. Twice in the last few years they've had "revolutions" to get rid if a duly elected President because he leaned toward Russia. That's not what they wanted and that's okay, but it's not a healthy democracy.

Neither was America......... as it was gaining independence and settling in afterwards.

Rogue Valley · Dec 10, 2017

rocket88 said:
Just look at the politics. Twice in the last few years they've had "revolutions" to get rid if a duly elected President because he leaned toward Russia. That's not what they wanted and that's okay, but it's not a healthy democracy.

After signing a peaceful-transition document with representatives from Germany, France, Belgium, and Russia present, Viktor Yanukovych that night abdicated and fled from Kyiv to Russia on the night of 22 February 2014.

The next day his own Party of Regions in the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament) stripped him of presidential power and the Speaker of Parliament (Oleksandr Turchynov) was appointed interim president.

rocket88 · Dec 10, 2017

RetiredUSN said:
Neither was America......... as it was gaining independence and settling in afterwards.

Actually America did a fine job of respecting the institutions (young as they were) and having the next election decide things. Many people were unhappy with John Adams' presidency, but instead of a revolution they simply elected Jefferson according to the Constitution.

Godric1970 · Dec 10, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
I was in Ukraine earlier this year. While Ukraine does have a significant number of Russian speakers (mostly in the east and Odessa), most still identify as Ukrainian. Ukraine's biggest problem is corruption and the slow pace of reforms.

Ukraine is not going back to the Russian sphere. Poll after poll states this quite clearly.

Putin does not want to annex Donbas. What Putin does want is continued conflict in the east because no nation can be accepted into NATO if there exist any border/territorial disputes (NATO bylaws).

up until 1922 Kharkov Oblast all the way to Odessa Oblast was recognised as part of Russia until a soviet Dictator Decreed it was part of Ukraine as Ukraine had no heavy industry the Russian people in those areas had no say they became Ukrainians overnight whether they like it or not and as for Crimea ... the port city and naval base was founded by rear Admiral Thomas McKenzie for the Russian Empire and for no other state, Crimea was given to Ukraine in 1954 by a Ethnic Ukrainian Soviet Dictator and at the break up of the Soviet Union Crimeans demanded Crimea should go back to their motherland Russia ... Ukraine contains land illegally confiscated not only from Russia but Also, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia by Soviet leaders

you talk about Ukraine is not part of the Russian sphere ... it is when the country contains large swathes of Russian Territories and large numbers of Russian People ... Putin does not want eternal conflict in Ukraine he told Ukraine and the west how to handle Donbass and they ignored him ... he told them offer Donbass special status and shower the region with investment like he did with Chechnya .....

Ukraine does not fall into the USA/NATO sphere of influence ... you have overstepped your mark the USA and NATO signed a treaty with the Soviet Union on the grounds of the soviet union breaking up NATO would not try to enlarge via former Warsaw pact nations this was the price to be paid for allowing the unification of east and west Germany ... what you have shown to Russia is you are not trust worthy and without honour ... with Ukraine you have hit Russia's Red Line and it will no longer stand by whilst America goes around invading and bombing and destroying what ever country it wants whether it has support in the UN or not and with Trumps antics this week you are no longer seen as a valid broker when it comes to peace talks

Rogue Valley · Dec 11, 2017

Godric1970 said:
Ukraine does not fall into the USA/NATO sphere of influence ...

Now it does. Moscow lost Ukraine with the military invasions of Crimea and Donbas. Ukraine is an EU/Western leaning nation now.

Godric1970 · Dec 11, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
Now it does. Moscow lost Ukraine with the military invasions of Crimea and Donbas. Ukraine is an EU/Western leaning nation now.

oh no it doesn't the entire South Eastern Ukraine is Pro Russian they see the Ukrainian Armed forces and nato forces as occupation forces Russia did not invade Donbass ... Donbass rose up because of the massacres in Odessa and Mariupol 1 week apart
Crimea is Russian the people are Russian the USA lost it's legitimacy after it tore up the Treaty it made with the Soviet Union/Russia in regards to NATO/USA encroachment on Russian borders ... Russia lived up to it's part by allowing German Re-unification .... America has proven itself to be deceitful, Dishonourable and untrustworthy ... you believe you can do as you please .... that is no longer true ... no one trusts you even your closet allies in Europe as a nation and a people you disgust me your country interferes in every nations politics

Rogue Valley · Dec 12, 2017

Godric1970 said:
oh no it doesn't the entire South Eastern Ukraine is Pro Russian...

I've lived there. Some are. The majority are not. Russian speaking =/= Pro-Russian.

Godric1970 said:
Crimea is Russian the people are Russian...

Russia transferred Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 (a drag on the Russian economy). There are indeed many ethnic Russians in Crimea. Why? Because in 1944 Stalin deported the indigenous population (Crimean Tatars) and replaced them with ethnic Russians (ethnic cleansing). It was only when Ukraine gained independence in 1991 that the displaced Tatar people were invited to return to their Crimean homeland.

At the dissolution of the USSR, Yeltsin signed the Belavezha Accords (Creation Agreement/1991) and the Alma-Ata Protocol (1991). These documents guaranteed that the borders of the newly independent nations Ukraine, Belarus, and the Russian Federation would remain precisely as they were when the documents were signed. RF and Ukraine also signed documents pertaining to the division of the Black Sea Fleet and Moscow leasing the Russian naval base at Sevastopol in Crimea....

- The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet (1997)

- Russian-Ukrainian Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership (1997) (Article 2 - Reaffirmed “the inviolability of the existing borders”)

- Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine (Kharkiv Pact - 2010)

In addition, the Constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea (ARC) at the time of the Russian invasion stated that any change in the status of Crimea required the approval of Ukraine's Constitutional Court and a Ukrainian nationwide referendum. 2% of Ukraine's population (Crimea) cannot unilaterally decide the status of Ukrainian land (Crimea) that belongs to 100% of the Ukrainian people.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 (2014) stipulated that Crimea legally belongs to Ukraine, and the Moscow-arranged 'referendum' while under Russian military occupation was illegal and void.

Godric1970 · Dec 13, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
I've lived there. Some are. The majority are not. Russian speaking =/= Pro-Russian.

Russia transferred Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 (a drag on the Russian economy). There are indeed many ethnic Russians in Crimea. Why? Because in 1944 Stalin deported the indigenous population (Crimean Tatars) and replaced them with ethnic Russians (ethnic cleansing). It was only when Ukraine gained independence in 1991 that the displaced Tatar people were invited to return to their Crimean homeland.

At the dissolution of the USSR, Yeltsin signed the Belavezha Accords (Creation Agreement/1991) and the Alma-Ata Protocol (1991). These documents guaranteed that the borders of the newly independent nations Ukraine, Belarus, and the Russian Federation would remain precisely as they were when the documents were signed. RF and Ukraine also signed documents pertaining to the division of the Black Sea Fleet and Moscow leasing the Russian naval base at Sevastopol in Crimea....

- The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet (1997)

- Russian-Ukrainian Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership (1997) (Article 2 - Reaffirmed “the inviolability of the existing borders”)

- Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine (Kharkiv Pact - 2010)

In addition, the Constitutions of both Ukraine and Crimea (ARC) at the time of the Russian invasion stated that any change in the status of Crimea required the approval of Ukraine's Constitutional Court and a Ukrainian nationwide referendum. 2% of Ukraine's population (Crimea) cannot unilaterally decide the status of Ukrainian land (Crimea) that belongs to 100% of the Ukrainian people.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 (2014) stipulated that Crimea legally belongs to Ukraine, and the Moscow-arranged 'referendum' while under Russian military occupation was illegal and void.

you do realise Yeltsin was a american puppet ... America even boasted about winning the election for him in 1997 and Russia did not transfer Crimea to Ukraine it was the Soviet Union led by ethnic Ukrainian leader with a Ukrainian wife ... the Tartars were expelled by Stalin a Georgian and they were expelled for helping the Nazis .... and why is it Tatars say they have more freedom and rights under Russia than they did with Ukraine .... admit it you know absolutely sod all about Russia and the Soviet Union and in no point in their history has Crimeans wanted to be part of Ukraine

Lafayette · Dec 14, 2017

Rogue Valley said:
Tillerson vows no warming with Russia until it leaves Ukraine

That's the best news I've ever read from this sclerotic Donald Dork administration. Of course, it would be Foreign Affairs and about a subject that has little economic importance to most Americans.

The Ukraine is literally "owned" by a cesspit of oligarchs who copied exactly the same behaviour of the Russian variety. They are all now multi-billionaires and in the West people kiss-their-ass because of their riches. There are not enough million-euro houses around St. Tropez to go around - and that figure is entry-price level ... !

(Yeah, right, I'm just jealous ...)

Lafayette · Dec 14, 2017

OLD SONG, NEW LYRICS

Crimea is a major Naval port for Russia. Which means, it services the Russian Mediterranean fleet that is harbored in Syria. (In fact, the seaside hometown of Assad. Wow! What a surprise!)

But, in any real strife with West, Crimea would be useless to the Russian Navy. All ships on the Black Sea that want access to the Mediterranean Sea would have to pass by Istanbul, and the Turks could block them.

(Though NATO and Turkish relations are difficult at the moment.)

So, the Russian Navy in the Med would have to be resupplied in a long round-about way by passage through the North Atlantic. (That Putin is getting his air-force out of Syria very quickly is an indication of how expensive its operation is to Russia.)

Crimea was given back to the Ukraine because it was a real drag on the Russian economy. Nothing has changed. It is not that useful a port, and it will likely return to the Ukraine once Putin is gone.

Which brings up the matter of Putin's recent decision to contest the next elections.

When are the Russkies ever going to get rid of this guy? He's an oligarch just like all the others. Besides, his daughter is married to his best-friend's son, and both are prominently rich members of the large oligarch family. Now, where did they get that money, because they had none before Putin replaced Yeltsin!

If the Russians ever come to their senses, there is going to be yet another Russian revolution; and all these oligarchs (who "stole" Russian government assets and privatized them) will be rushing off to settle in Paris where they have already acquired palatial apartments.

Now, when was the last time we saw that? Oh, yes - when the Russian revolution occurred in 1917.

Old song, new lyrics ...

joG · Dec 14, 2017

Godric1970 said:
up until 1922 Kharkov Oblast all the way to Odessa Oblast was recognised as part of Russia until a soviet Dictator Decreed it was part of Ukraine as Ukraine had no heavy industry the Russian people in those areas had no say they became Ukrainians overnight whether they like it or not and as for Crimea ... the port city and naval base was founded by rear Admiral Thomas McKenzie for the Russian Empire and for no other state, Crimea was given to Ukraine in 1954 by a Ethnic Ukrainian Soviet Dictator and at the break up of the Soviet Union Crimeans demanded Crimea should go back to their motherland Russia ... Ukraine contains land illegally confiscated not only from Russia but Also, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia by Soviet leaders

you talk about Ukraine is not part of the Russian sphere ... it is when the country contains large swathes of Russian Territories and large numbers of Russian People ... Putin does not want eternal conflict in Ukraine he told Ukraine and the west how to handle Donbass and they ignored him ... he told them offer Donbass special status and shower the region with investment like he did with Chechnya .....

Ukraine does not fall into the USA/NATO sphere of influence ... you have overstepped your mark the USA and NATO signed a treaty with the Soviet Union on the grounds of the soviet union breaking up NATO would not try to enlarge via former Warsaw pact nations this was the price to be paid for allowing the unification of east and west Germany ... what you have shown to Russia is you are not trust worthy and without honour ... with Ukraine you have hit Russia's Red Line and it will no longer stand by whilst America goes around invading and bombing and destroying what ever country it wants whether it has support in the UN or not and with Trumps antics this week you are no longer seen as a valid broker when it comes to peace talks

The rest is immaterial until Russia frees the occupied areas. The country is a pariah state after a number of wars of aggression and land theft as well as giving Assad back the popilation after we have all seen the forensic pictures of his victims. The Siviet was an enemy and Putin has been waging nonlinear war on us for 25 plus years.

Rogue Valley · Dec 14, 2017

Godric1970 said:
.... and why is it Tatars say they have more freedom and rights under Russia than they did with Ukraine ....

:roll: Kremlin propaganda and utter nonsense....

Crimea: In the dark - the silencing of dissent | Amnesty International

Crimea: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies | Human Rights Watch

New UN report details grave human rights violations in Crimea | UN News Centre

Reuters | Russian occupation of Crimea marked by grave human rights violations - U.N.

Rogue Valley · Dec 15, 2017

Kremlin says regrets EU decision to extend sanctions

Reuters
December 15, 2017

MOSCOW, Dec 15 (Reuters) - Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Friday that Russia regretted a decision by European Union leaders to extend economic sanctions on Moscow. EU leaders agreed on Thursday to prolong for another six months the bloc’s economic sanctions on Russia, imposed over the annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula and Moscow’s support for rebels in eastern Ukraine.

Tougher Russia sanctions passed by the US Congress will come into force in February 2018.

Tillerson vows no warming with Russia until it leaves Ukraine

Rogue Valley

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rocket88

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Godric1970

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