UK- Asylum Seekers Raped Children in Newcastle

Glen Contrarian said:

A half million American women have gone through female genital mutilation? References, please...'cause it sure looks like you bought a first-class ticket on the right-wing crazy train.

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Where are you, Glen? Because I supplied the information backing up my post. Your insult was not necessary, and your response would be appreciated.

Glen Contrarian said:

Feel free to make even a partial list...and be prepared to defend your claim on each nation. Remember, we're talking about nations that actively resist multiculturalism. Outside certain countries in the Middle East, not many do. I'll be waiting right here.

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You'd need to define both conditions then

HowardBThiname said:

Read exactly what I wrote again -- carefully -- and then read this:



How common is female genital mutilation in the US? | ABC10.com

Or, if you're more the pictorial type, check out CNN's graph:
View attachment 67224851
The alarming rise of female genital mutilation in America - CNN

And then make your excuses as to why that doesn't concern you -- why that specific form of (sub)culturalism isn't harmful.

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How closely did you read the article? I ask because of this statement: According to Equality Now, up to 513,000 women and girls in the United States are at risk of FGM or have undergone the practice.

"At risk of". That's a hugely loaded statement. In other words, yes, they found some who have undergone the practice...but they did NOT find a freaking half million. Even worse, the site that it uses as a source is "not found". In other words, not only do we not know the proportion of how many are "at risk" as compared to how many have already undergone the operation, we ALSO do not know how they came up with those numbers. What's the methodology? How were the numbers arrived at? How was the proportion determined?

We don't know...and thanks to the lack of source data, we can't know. All you have is an effectively-unsourced accusation. That, and you should already know that when it comes to statistics, the numbers of people "at risk" is always FAR higher than the numbers actually affected. It's like in a tornado watch or warning - the number of people "at risk" is ALWAYS far higher than the number of people actually directly harmed. All this should make it abundantly clear that your claim that a half million girls HAVE undergone FGM is wildly inaccurate.

Next time, read your source material a bit more closely, and do try to apply as much cynicism to your side's claims as you do to ours.

Glen Contrarian said:

How closely did you read the article? I ask because of this statement: According to Equality Now, up to 513,000 women and girls in the United States are at risk of FGM or have undergone the practice.

"At risk of". That's a hugely loaded statement. In other words, yes, they found some who have undergone the practice...but they did NOT find a freaking half million. Even worse, the site that it uses as a source is "not found". In other words, not only do we not know the proportion of how many are "at risk" as compared to how many have already undergone the operation, we ALSO do not know how they came up with those numbers. What's the methodology? How were the numbers arrived at? How was the proportion determined?

We don't know...and thanks to the lack of source data, we can't know. All you have is an effectively-unsourced accusation. That, and you should already know that when it comes to statistics, the numbers of people "at risk" is always FAR higher than the numbers actually affected. It's like in a tornado watch or warning - the number of people "at risk" is ALWAYS far higher than the number of people actually directly harmed. All this should make it abundantly clear that your claim that a half million girls HAVE undergone FGM is wildly inaccurate.

Next time, read your source material a bit more closely, and do try to apply as much cynicism to your side's claims as you do to ours.

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Oh come on!

I specifically worded my original statement in EXACTLY the same way.

One of us is not reading -- but it's not me. Your emboldened sentence above is a lie. Go back and read my original claim.

In addition, you just put forth an extremely misogynist point of view by attempting to reduce the impact this has on the females that suffer from this cultural abomination.

How does that make you feel? To sell those women down the river?

Glen Contrarian said:

Really? No offense, OFG, but perhaps you should learn a little more about those nations. I mean, really - Myanmar? You're claiming Myanmar is doing well? Oh, wait - it seems you think they're doing well by killing off Muslims. It's becoming fairly obvious where your social and political preferences lie.

FYI, Finland is fairly homogeneous due to its location, but its policies towards minorities are fairly liberal - there's little actual rejection of multiculturalitsm. I've got a Filipino nephew who has spent quite some time in the Denmark/Netherlands/Belgium area, and he loves it there - he's faced very little racism there. Portugal is quite welcoming and multiethnic when it comes to both minorities and with religions. I could go on, but...no offense, guy, but it's apparent that you're going with what you THINK you know rather than the reality of life in those nations.

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Doing well is relative. The Maasai think they are doing better than ever because they own more cattle than ever before in their history. The Burmese believe they are doing well, and will do better when all the muslims are dead. The Burmese detest their own neighbors, and have done so for centuries.

Your nephew needs to learn what is said behind his back. Denmark, and specifically the Netherlands and Belgium have burgeoning right wing movements that are extremely anti muslim and anti refugee.

Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Hungary, and many others have accepted few if any refugees. Albania which is a mostly muslim nation, is shooting illegal entries into their country.

I spent my summer traveling throughout Europe this past summer. Yes, I do know. Wherever we went, the topic of conversation was how to rid themselves of refugees and unwanted immigrants. That was people speaking in their own homes and local taverns, restaurants, pubs, whatever. Everywhere we went, Merkel's vision of liberalism was mocked and rejected. Many kept saying how they needed their own Trump. The EU is viewed as a German French invasion of the rest of Europe. Admiration for Brexit was everywhere. That was people talking, not politicians, economists, liberal professors and so on.

Telling you and anyone else what I perceived when I was in Europe, or listened first hand to people who escaped Myanmar among other repressive states, has nothing to do with my own social and political preferences. All it means is you are another self righteous person who is more right than anyone else. In this world, very little is what it appears to be, whether we like it or not.

When was the last time you traveled outside the safety of this nation, and actually interacted with people not as a tourist? I was traveling with my nephew and niece, and other family members on a musical cultural exchange. We were welcomed into people's homes as one of them because they enjoyed our music. We broke bread together, drank beers and wines together, we caught images we never expected or suspected. And I doubt we plumbed the depths.

I live in Queens NYC, home of at least 76 different ethnic groups. I can afford to live anywhere I choose. I love the differences here, I celebrate those differences, I enjoy the cultural celebrations, the cultural menus at local restaurants, the variety of music and art. I've taught my children, and now I teach my grandchildren to celebrate by recognizing it takes many different flowers to make a garden. Don't whine to me about your prejudices, I don't care about your prejudices.

I almost forgot and came back to say you know nothing of Finland. You're looking Finland up in a Wiki left you knowing nothing. There are three major Finnish ethnic groupings and they are not homogenous to themselves, accounting for almost 95% of the population. Those with different ethnic backgrounds are treated with a similar Jim Crow attitude that our black people enjoyed here in the 1950's. You are clueless.

EMNofSeattle said:

You'd need to define both conditions then

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What nations - now or in the past - actively resist multiculturalism? I'm speaking not just this or that social demographic in a given nation, but when the discrimination is actively implemented by government policy.

HowardBThiname said:

Where are you, Glen? Because I supplied the information backing up my post. Your insult was not necessary, and your response would be appreciated.

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Read #53 - I was apparently typing on that when you posted this comment.

OldFatGuy said:

Doing well is relative. The Maasai think they are doing better than ever because they own more cattle than ever before in their history. The Burmese believe they are doing well, and will do better when all the muslims are dead. The Burmese detest their own neighbors, and have done so for centuries.

Your nephew needs to learn what is said behind his back. Denmark, and specifically the Netherlands and Belgium have burgeoning right wing movements that are extremely anti muslim and anti refugee.

Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Hungary, and many others have accepted few if any refugees. Albania which is a mostly muslim nation, is shooting illegal entries into their country.

I spent my summer traveling throughout Europe this past summer. Yes, I do know. Wherever we went, the topic of conversation was how to rid themselves of refugees and unwanted immigrants. That was people speaking in their own homes and local taverns, restaurants, pubs, whatever. Everywhere we went, Merkel's vision of liberalism was mocked and rejected. Many kept saying how they needed their own Trump. The EU is viewed as a German French invasion of the rest of Europe. Admiration for Brexit was everywhere. That was people talking, not politicians, economists, liberal professors and so on.

Telling you and anyone else what I perceived when I was in Europe, or listened first hand to people who escaped Myanmar among other repressive states, has nothing to do with my own social and political preferences. All it means is you are another self righteous person who is more right than anyone else. In this world, very little is what it appears to be, whether we like it or not.

When was the last time you traveled outside the safety of this nation, and actually interacted with people not as a tourist? I was traveling with my nephew and niece, and other family members on a musical cultural exchange. We were welcomed into people's homes as one of them because they enjoyed our music. We broke bread together, drank beers and wines together, we caught images we never expected or suspected. And I doubt we plumbed the depths.

I live in Queens NYC, home of at least 76 different ethnic groups. I can afford to live anywhere I choose. I love the differences here, I celebrate those differences, I enjoy the cultural celebrations, the cultural menus at local restaurants, the variety of music and art. I've taught my children, and now I teach my grandchildren to celebrate by recognizing it takes many different flowers to make a garden. Don't whine to me about your prejudices, I don't care about your prejudices.

I almost forgot and came back to say you know nothing of Finland. You're looking Finland up in a Wiki left you knowing nothing. There are three major Finnish ethnic groupings and they are not homogenous to themselves, accounting for almost 95% of the population. Those with different ethnic backgrounds are treated with a similar Jim Crow attitude that our black people enjoyed here in the 1950's. You are clueless.

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Is that why the Maasai were coming up to the car I was in, begging for money? This was in 1994 just outside Tsavo West, and I hope they're doing better now.

You've done quite a bit of traveling - and so have I. Last year I was in Italy and Greece. The year before that, England and France. I've got a house in the Philippines and have driven there quite a bit. I've been to Dubai many times. I've sung karaoke with Singaporean military at the Raffles. I've been lost walking the back streets of Bangkok at two in the morning. I've been equally lost in Nairobi. I've gotten ugly stares from old men looking at me when I visited ground zero in Nagasaki (and I can't blame them). I truly enjoyed driving by fields of legal opium poppies in Tasmania.

I greatly enjoy my travels. So please do not assume that I don't "travel outside the safety of this nation"...because I've seen enough to know that it's a heck of a lot safer to walk down the streets of Dubai, London, Paris, Athens, Rome - and even freaking Manila - than it is to walk down the street in Jackson, Mississippi. I will say it's a heck of a culture shock to go from living in the boonies of the MS Delta to living in a megalopolis of 15M people, many of whom are what most Americans would call dirt poor.

So no, I haven't been to Finland - probably never will. But I've traveled enough to know that except for social and religious mores, people really are the same all over the world. I've yet to be anywhere that really felt foreign to me - I've always felt at home everywhere I've been. You've got stories, but so does this middle-aged retired sailor. So...again, it's best if we both stop assuming, don't you think?

Glen Contrarian said:

What nations - now or in the past - actively resist multiculturalism? I'm speaking not just this or that social demographic in a given nation, but when the discrimination is actively implemented by government policy.

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You need to define what "actively resist" and "multicultural" entails.

If you mean empires with a diverse population of subjugated peoples as multicultural and define "resist" as ethnic cleansing then virtually no successful civilizations have resisted multiculturism, if by "multicultural" you mean an egalitarian society of unassimilated minority groups who share nothing in common with the majority and by "actively resist" you mean "enforce existing immigration law" almost no successful long term civilizations did that either

HowardBThiname said:

Oh come on!

I specifically worded my original statement in EXACTLY the same way.

One of us is not reading -- but it's not me. Your emboldened sentence above is a lie. Go back and read my original claim.

In addition, you just put forth an extremely misogynist point of view by attempting to reduce the impact this has on the females that suffer from this cultural abomination.

How does that make you feel? To sell those women down the river?

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Ah - my bad - you did point out "at risk". But all that does is show that even though you saw the "at risk" part, you didn't realize that its use strongly implied that those "at risk" FAR outnumber those who have actually had FGM. What's more, you're accusing me of lying. Do you know the definition of a lie? A lie - in case you don't know - is a statement made that is KNOWINGLY false. Accusing someone of lying when they made a simple (or even a stupid) mistake is akin to telling a five year-old that he's lying because he said that 5+5=11. He's not lying - he's simply wrong.

In other words, next time, before you accuse someone of lying, do try to first determine whether he's lying, or if maybe he just made a simple stupid mistake.

Oh, and one more thing - when it comes to a cultural abomination like FGM, perhaps you should ask yourself if maybe you're throwing stones in a glass house. To much of the world - indeed, to most of Europe - our capital punishment is barbaric. To almost all the developed world outside our borders, the seeming fetish that our nation has with firearms is the height of stupidity. It wasn't so long ago that our Jim Crow laws were in effect, and even to this day there are "segregation academies" that are in operation. We've got a president who just pardoned a guy who forced a woman to give birth while her arms were shackled to the bed.

In other words, be careful about pointing the finger, 'cause all too often that means your other three fingers are pointing back at you. The key, then, isn't to stop those who come from FGM cultures from coming here, but once they are here, most of them learn that such is wrong and evil. Not all of them learn it, but most do...and as time goes on, their families in their home countries start realizing that their daughters in American (most of whom did not have FGM) did not grow up to be sluts, but are instead proud, educated, and prosperous women. We can't go over there and demand that they change their culture just because we think they should - but we most certainly can help their people understand by seeing for themselves that the lives of their family members here isn't some kind of moral disaster.

You just have to have the courage to welcome them and help them to learn our ways. Not all will learn - some will still do what's wrong (which sorta comes with being human) - but most will learn, and will improve their lives here and the lives of their families back home as time goes on. That is the experience of the tired, the poor, the wretched refuse that we welcome to our shores.

Glen Contrarian said:

Is that why the Maasai were coming up to the car I was in, begging for money? This was in 1994 just outside Tsavo West, and I hope they're doing better now.

You've done quite a bit of traveling - and so have I. Last year I was in Italy and Greece. The year before that, England and France. I've got a house in the Philippines and have driven there quite a bit. I've been to Dubai many times. I've sung karaoke with Singaporean military at the Raffles. I've been lost walking the back streets of Bangkok at two in the morning. I've been equally lost in Nairobi. I've gotten ugly stares from old men looking at me when I visited ground zero in Nagasaki (and I can't blame them). I truly enjoyed driving by fields of legal opium poppies in Tasmania.

I greatly enjoy my travels. So please do not assume that I don't "travel outside the safety of this nation"...because I've seen enough to know that it's a heck of a lot safer to walk down the streets of Dubai, London, Paris, Athens, Rome - and even freaking Manila - than it is to walk down the street in Jackson, Mississippi. I will say it's a heck of a culture shock to go from living in the boonies of the MS Delta to living in a megalopolis of 15M people, many of whom are what most Americans would call dirt poor.

So no, I haven't been to Finland - probably never will. But I've traveled enough to know that except for social and religious mores, people really are the same all over the world. I've yet to be anywhere that really felt foreign to me - I've always felt at home everywhere I've been. You've got stories, but so does this middle-aged retired sailor. So...again, it's best if we both stop assuming, don't you think?

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You speak like a book traveler. There are beggars everywhere, and more in NYC than Masaii country. I wasn't assuming, I was asking. I'll leave assumptions to you. I don't find people essentially the same wherever I go, but then I seek out the differences, because that is what makes life interesting for me. There may be some commonalities, but the cultural differences are vast and often unique, Today's American poor enjoys a higher standard of living for the most part than the nobility of Europe of just a few hundred years ago. Wealth is always relative to someone else's vision.

BTW, London and Rome are considered two of the most dangerous cities in the world, Paris is worse, and Marseille more dangerous. I can show you vast fields of legal opium being grown right here outside of Saratoga NY, and others in various locations throughout the US. We make many medicines and other essential products from opium, not just pain killers.

OldFatGuy said:

You speak like a book traveler. There are beggars everywhere, and more in NYC than Masaii country. I wasn't assuming, I was asking. I'll leave assumptions to you. I don't find people essentially the same wherever I go, but then I seek out the differences, because that is what makes life interesting for me. There may be some commonalities, but the cultural differences are vast and often unique, Today's American poor enjoys a higher standard of living for the most part than the nobility of Europe of just a few hundred years ago. Wealth is always relative to someone else's vision.

BTW, London and Rome are considered two of the most dangerous cities in the world, Paris is worse, and Marseille more dangerous. I can show you vast fields of legal opium being grown right here outside of Saratoga NY, and others in various locations throughout the US. We make many medicines and other essential products from opium, not just pain killers.

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And yet you still make assumptions about me. Did you see the "retired sailor" part? Going to many different nations overseas is a normal part and parcel of a twenty-year Navy career. You say I sound like a "book traveler", but I've lived overseas - didja miss the "I've got a house in Manila" part? Have you sent your kids to school overseas? Maybe you have. I did...and it was one of the best things we ever did for them.

Frankly, your tendency to continue to make assumptions even after reading my reply makes me believe that I've found the problem - you seem to have a problem with confirmation bias. You seem to have paid more attention to the observations which backed up your assumptions, and apparently ignored the observations that called your assumptions into question. How do I know this? Look at what you posted: London and Rome are not even close to being "two of the most dangerous cities in the world". Neither is Paris or Marseilles. A simple look at the homicide rates for each of those cities obviates your claim - London's is much lower than NYC...and if you'll look, NYC's homicide rate is slightly over half that of the state of Louisiana (and has been for a few years). And what about Marseilles, the "murder capital of France"? As this article makes clear: The city’s murder rate is high but nowhere near that of comparably sized American cities.

You wrote what you thought you knew...but you do not seem to have gone to the trouble to check your assumptions against the hard and documented numbers. Sure, you visited quite a few countries, but you apparently stuck with your personal observations (including your personal biases) but never verified with the overall numbers what you thought you knew. You're from NYC - would you look at Vinegar Hill and think the crime rate there is representative of our whole nation? Of course not. For the same reason, you shouldn't make assumptions of entire countries based only on what you see when you visit there. What's more, you can't talk to a few locals there and simply go with what they tell you. Why? To the everyday Frenchman, Marseilles is a violent city, not safe to live in - and that's probably what they would tell you, because that would be true in their frame of reference. But in reality, once one looks at the hard numbers, Marseilles really is significantly safer than most American cities.

Here's another one for you: Indonesia is 85% Sunni Muslim and is a third-world nation. What do you think the homicide rate is there? High? In reality, the overall homicide rate there is lower than that of the safest state in America (New Hampshire). References available upon request.

Like I said, ya gotta be careful about those assumptions.

Frankly, you remind me greatly of my older brother (who passed away a few years back). He was strongly conservative (which sorta comes with growing up white in the MS Delta). One day we were arguing politics (as we often did), and the subject of safety overseas came up. I asked him "how high do you think the homicide is in Japan?" He replied, "Probably just as high as it is here!" He had never taken the time to verify what he thought he knew against the hard numbers...just as you have not taken the time to verify what you thought you knew against the hard numbers.

EMNofSeattle said:

You need to define what "actively resist" and "multicultural" entails.

If you mean empires with a diverse population of subjugated peoples as multicultural and define "resist" as ethnic cleansing then virtually no successful civilizations have resisted multiculturism, if by "multicultural" you mean an egalitarian society of unassimilated minority groups who share nothing in common with the majority and by "actively resist" you mean "enforce existing immigration law" almost no successful long term civilizations did that either

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"Actively implementing resistance against multiculturalism as part of government policy". Such would include any one of these: Jim Crow. Apartheid. Ghettoes. Enforced segregation. Miscegenation laws. Laws prohibiting certain religions. Laws prohibiting the celebration of ethnic holidays that don't apply to the majority demographic. Laws allowing discrimination against others based on race, religion, or ethnicity.

You get the point.

And yes, several of those applied to America...and not only did the Civil Rights struggle tear at the social fabric of our nation, but we're still dealing with it today since we've got what strongly seems to be a racist president - I present him as exhibit A in my examples of how government-encouraged (if not enforced) resistance to multiculturalism is never a good idea.

London doesn't count unresolved deaths as murders, neither does Paris. By British accounts Glasgow is more dangerous, but the unresolved deaths in London are twice NYC's homicide rate. London has more muggings than San Salvador, weapons of choice knives and blunt objects, like saps, bludgeons, hammers, bricks, ball bearings in a sock..... It's all in the accounting.

From the FBI, have a field day:

FBI’s Violent Crime Statistics For Every City In America « CBS Chicago

Let me know when NYC makes one of those lists. You're clueless.

And just so that you learn a little something, Marseille has traditionally been the most dangerous city in Europe since the Romans first built a port on the site. That was disrupted for about two decades when a gang war between the three leading gangs of Marseille left a trail of bodies leaving all three gangs with no living men, just women who decided to make some accommodations. 1965-1985. The new generation of men started appearing in the early 1990's and are now firmly entrenched back to their old habits. The current mayor of Marseille and the three leading jurists are all living in hiding with their families in other parts of Europe.

The rate of violence would have been higher in Corsica, but one family has dominated since WWII, and kills muslims on sight. So ironic for an island that has changed hands between muslims and Christians beyond counting.

The former chief of the Narcotics Squad of Rome is in an American witness protection program, along with his family, as a courtesy for his cooperation with our DEA. 11 judges in Rome alone, have been assassinated so far this year. Rome and Paris vie for the highest number of pickpockets. But, the presence of cutaways in Brussels is now paramount. Cutaways don't pick pockets, they slash a pocket, grab the contents, stab the victim in the leg and run like hell. If the target is a woman, they slash the purse straps, grab it with a synchronic stab in the legs and run like hell. European authorities claim none of this happens, they must protect the tourist industry. Newly rich Asian tourists are the targets of choice. They fear police involvement.

I'd find more of what you say if you were bragging about a woman in every port of call.

OldFatGuy said:

London doesn't count unresolved deaths as murders, neither does Paris. By British accounts Glasgow is more dangerous, but the unresolved deaths in London are twice NYC's homicide rate. London has more muggings than San Salvador, weapons of choice knives and blunt objects, like saps, bludgeons, hammers, bricks, ball bearings in a sock..... It's all in the accounting.

From the FBI, have a field day:

FBI’s Violent Crime Statistics For Every City In America « CBS Chicago

Let me know when NYC makes one of those lists. You're clueless.

And just so that you learn a little something, Marseille has traditionally been the most dangerous city in Europe since the Romans first built a port on the site. That was disrupted for about two decades when a gang war between the three leading gangs of Marseille left a trail of bodies leaving all three gangs with no living men, just women who decided to make some accommodations. 1965-1985. The new generation of men started appearing in the early 1990's and are now firmly entrenched back to their old habits. The current mayor of Marseille and the three leading jurists are all living in hiding with their families in other parts of Europe.

The rate of violence would have been higher in Corsica, but one family has dominated since WWII, and kills muslims on sight. So ironic for an island that has changed hands between muslims and Christians beyond counting.

The former chief of the Narcotics Squad of Rome is in an American witness protection program, along with his family, as a courtesy for his cooperation with our DEA. 11 judges in Rome alone, have been assassinated so far this year. Rome and Paris vie for the highest number of pickpockets. But, the presence of cutaways in Brussels is now paramount. Cutaways don't pick pockets, they slash a pocket, grab the contents, stab the victim in the leg and run like hell. If the target is a woman, they slash the purse straps, grab it with a synchronic stab in the legs and run like hell. European authorities claim none of this happens, they must protect the tourist industry. Newly rich Asian tourists are the targets of choice. They fear police involvement.

I'd find more of what you say if you were bragging about a woman in every port of call.

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"London has more muggings than San Salvador" - in raw numbers, you're probably right...but when it comes to the RATE - which is far more important than the raw numbers - you're almost certainly very wrong. If a town of 10,000 has two murders, and a city of 10,000,000 has 500 murders, the city of 10M is four times safer than that town of 10,000...meaning that the people in that small town are four times more likely to be murdered than in that city of 10M.

That's why it's crucial to pay attention to the RATE and not simply look at the raw numbers.

Also, when it comes to NYC, perhaps you should reread what I wrote - when I said that NYC has just over half the homicide rate of the state of Louisiana, that's another way of saying that NYC is about twice as SAFE as Louisiana...that one is almost twice as likely to be murdered in Louisiana than in NYC. I've pointed out many times on DP how safe NYC is compared to many other places in America.

Concerning Marseilles, I'm not at all impressed, much less concerned. The corruption you describe is small potatoes indeed compared to most of the third world. Overseas, I've paid off cops several times, and even paid off a judge to get my brother in law out of jail - try doing that in America sometime! But back to Marseilles, it's about as dangerous as New York City (which isn't that dangerous, as you yourself admit):

Marseille, with its population of 800,000, has nearly as many drug-related murders proportionally as New York City, with a population 10 times higher.

Pay attention to the bolded word: "proportionally". If anything, instead of telling you that Marseilles isn't that bad, this should be an indication of just how bad America is, since NYC is one of our safest big cities. Again, it's the RATE and not the raw numbers which is what's important.

One last thing: always use "Reply with quote"...because otherwise, I probably won't see your reply. Oh, and unless you're also retired military, please stop making assumptions about what I did or didn't do overseas, for (again, unless you're retired military) it's VERY unlikely you have any clue about what I did or did not do overseas.

Glen Contrarian said:

"Actively implementing resistance against multiculturalism as part of government policy". Such would include any one of these: Jim Crow. Apartheid. Ghettoes. Enforced segregation. Miscegenation laws. Laws prohibiting certain religions. Laws prohibiting the celebration of ethnic holidays that don't apply to the majority demographic. Laws allowing discrimination against others based on race, religion, or ethnicity.

You get the point.

And yes, several of those applied to America...and not only did the Civil Rights struggle tear at the social fabric of our nation, but we're still dealing with it today since we've got what strongly seems to be a racist president - I present him as exhibit A in my examples of how government-encouraged (if not enforced) resistance to multiculturalism is never a good idea.

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So in your own definition the US evolved into a superpower while resisting multiculturalism and thus you refuted your own argument already.

Glen Contrarian said:

"Actively implementing resistance against multiculturalism as part of government policy". Such would include any one of these: Jim Crow. Apartheid. Ghettoes. Enforced segregation. Miscegenation laws. Laws prohibiting certain religions. Laws prohibiting the celebration of ethnic holidays that don't apply to the majority demographic. Laws allowing discrimination against others based on race, religion, or ethnicity.

You get the point.

And yes, several of those applied to America...and not only did the Civil Rights struggle tear at the social fabric of our nation, but we're still dealing with it today since we've got what strongly seems to be a racist president - I present him as exhibit A in my examples of how government-encouraged (if not enforced) resistance to multiculturalism is never a good idea.

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In fact under your definition of resisting multiculturalism, i can't think a major empire throughout history, the Romans, the Franks, the people of the Steppe, the Chinese, Portugal, Spain, England, that DONT to some extent meet some of your definition of resisting multiculturalism

holbritter said:

People are more concerned with the not rape that happened to a 14 year old by a Republican.

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So that kind of grooming is acceptable to you.

Glen Contrarian said:

Ah - my bad - you did point out "at risk". But all that does is show that even though you saw the "at risk" part, you didn't realize that its use strongly implied that those "at risk" FAR outnumber those who have actually had FGM. What's more, you're accusing me of lying. Do you know the definition of a lie? A lie - in case you don't know - is a statement made that is KNOWINGLY false. Accusing someone of lying when they made a simple (or even a stupid) mistake is akin to telling a five year-old that he's lying because he said that 5+5=11. He's not lying - he's simply wrong.

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I rarely use the word "lie," but in this specific instance, you deserved it. When I first posted the numbers from the article (the same numbers run my many MSM outlets), you responded with:

...looks like you bought a first-class ticket on the right-wing crazy train.

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I responded with the link, quote, and even a chart and you STILL accused me of posting the wrong info. Where am I to go after that? Hmmm?

Oh, and one more thing - when it comes to a cultural abomination like FGM, perhaps you should ask yourself if maybe you're throwing stones in a glass house.

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You're just deflecting now. I'm not throwing stones in a glass house -- the victims here matter.

In other words, be careful about pointing the finger, 'cause all too often that means your other three fingers are pointing back at you.

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No fingers are pointing back at me. I'm trying to discuss solutions. You're hedging and making excuses.

The key, then, isn't to stop those who come from FGM cultures from coming here, but once they are here, most of them learn that such is wrong and evil. Not all of them learn it, but most do...and as time goes on, their families in their home countries start realizing that their daughters in American (most of whom did not have FGM) did not grow up to be sluts, but are instead proud, educated, and prosperous women. We can't go over there and demand that they change their culture just because we think they should - but we most certainly can help their people understand by seeing for themselves that the lives of their family members here isn't some kind of moral disaster.

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I never said we should stop them from coming here. I simply said that they MUST understand that some cultural ideas will never be tolerated and we need to address those up front - not deflect to other issues as you have done.

You just have to have the courage to welcome them and help them to learn our ways. Not all will learn - some will still do what's wrong (which sorta comes with being human) - but most will learn, and will improve their lives here and the lives of their families back home as time goes on. That is the experience of the tired, the poor, the wretched refuse that we welcome to our shores.

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Okay, that's all nice and fluffy, but you're still avoiding the real issue, which is that not all cultural ideals are compatible with western thought.

You have to understand and accept that western society is more evolved and progressed than societies run by religious rule and (sub)cultural ideals.

There are three choices -- 1) Immigrants will rise to western societal norms and all will be fine. 2) They will resist changing cultural practices the West has evolved beyond and we'll punish and deport them. 3) We will make excuses for unacceptable cultural norms, in which case, we've taken a step back (devolution).

If 1 and 2 are not supported, the only other option is 3, which is not acceptable.

OldFatGuy said:

Doing well is relative. The Maasai think they are doing better than ever because they own more cattle than ever before in their history. The Burmese believe they are doing well, and will do better when all the muslims are dead. The Burmese detest their own neighbors, and have done so for centuries.

Your nephew needs to learn what is said behind his back. Denmark, and specifically the Netherlands and Belgium have burgeoning right wing movements that are extremely anti muslim and anti refugee.

Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Hungary, and many others have accepted few if any refugees. Albania which is a mostly muslim nation, is shooting illegal entries into their country.

I spent my summer traveling throughout Europe this past summer. Yes, I do know. Wherever we went, the topic of conversation was how to rid themselves of refugees and unwanted immigrants. That was people speaking in their own homes and local taverns, restaurants, pubs, whatever. Everywhere we went, Merkel's vision of liberalism was mocked and rejected. Many kept saying how they needed their own Trump. The EU is viewed as a German French invasion of the rest of Europe. Admiration for Brexit was everywhere. That was people talking, not politicians, economists, liberal professors and so on.

Telling you and anyone else what I perceived when I was in Europe, or listened first hand to people who escaped Myanmar among other repressive states, has nothing to do with my own social and political preferences. All it means is you are another self righteous person who is more right than anyone else. In this world, very little is what it appears to be, whether we like it or not.

When was the last time you traveled outside the safety of this nation, and actually interacted with people not as a tourist? I was traveling with my nephew and niece, and other family members on a musical cultural exchange. We were welcomed into people's homes as one of them because they enjoyed our music. We broke bread together, drank beers and wines together, we caught images we never expected or suspected. And I doubt we plumbed the depths.

I live in Queens NYC, home of at least 76 different ethnic groups. I can afford to live anywhere I choose. I love the differences here, I celebrate those differences, I enjoy the cultural celebrations, the cultural menus at local restaurants, the variety of music and art. I've taught my children, and now I teach my grandchildren to celebrate by recognizing it takes many different flowers to make a garden. Don't whine to me about your prejudices, I don't care about your prejudices.

I almost forgot and came back to say you know nothing of Finland. You're looking Finland up in a Wiki left you knowing nothing. There are three major Finnish ethnic groupings and they are not homogenous to themselves, accounting for almost 95% of the population. Those with different ethnic backgrounds are treated with a similar Jim Crow attitude that our black people enjoyed here in the 1950's. You are clueless.

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Oh, so you think you're an expert on European geopolitics because you went to Europe on vacation. Lol.

calamity said:

So that kind of grooming is acceptable to you.

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:roll: I hate this game. Never said that. If touching is now rape to you, so be it.

HonestJoe said:

Presentation is more significant when discussing important issues like this. Or do you think it's OK for people to misrepresent things and play politics with people's lives?

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I hate misrepresentation. If you tell me exactly how that was done here, I will join you in saying so.

Glen Contrarian said:

...I've gotten ugly stares from old men looking at me when I visited ground zero in Nagasaki (and I can't blame them)....

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Yet they are happy to visit Pearl Harbor without any sign of contrition.

Btw, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Japan on the list of countries who do well minus a lot of immigration, although that will have to change due to Japan's birth rate.

EMNofSeattle said:

So in your own definition the US evolved into a superpower while resisting multiculturalism and thus you refuted your own argument already.

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Nice try - and one I saw coming yesterday. Sure, America became a superpower while enforcing Jim Crow laws...but the attempt by racists to preserve those Jim Crow laws almost tore this nation apart. We overcame - or (more accurately) are still overcoming - the racist baggage that our ancestors left us. Or at least most of us are (since the white nationalists and our president are obviously not interested in doing their part). Most of America is making a good-faith effort to look past religion, race, and ethnicity...and I think you would have to agree with that statement.

OldFatGuy said:

...I don't find people essentially the same wherever I go...cultural differences are vast and often unique...

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Right on. I found that just moving from Calgary to New Orleans, and I'm still convinced Egyptians actually came from another planet.