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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
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The Spanish Government is moving to seize the electronic media infrastructure which Catlans are using to hold and count their intended referendum vote tomorrow. Spanish authorities are also set to seize public schools and keep them sealed and closed, schools which are under local Catlan jurisdiction, where the voting will take place. Catlan families with children are moving into these schools to pre-empt Spanish authorities from closing the schools. The Spanish government has threatened Catlan organisers and referendum volunteers with astronomical fines and jail time if they participate in the running of the referendum. Finally Spain is preparing to use force if the Catlan population comes out into the streets tomorrow.

Is this a wise course to thwart Catlan nationalism or will it only force such nationalists to operate under-ground? Further will such overt suppression radicalise Catlan separatists, creating a new long-term security problem for Spain not unlike the traditional Basque insurgency? Negotiation or confrontation, which is the wisest strategy?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

D'oh! Apologies for spelling "Suppress" incorrectly in the title.

A sheepish looking Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.

2) It is mostly the Catalan prosecutor and legal system that is ordering the police to do what they are doing, because parts of the legislative are breaking the law.

The whole Catalan independence movement is pretty much flawed. Polls show that most Catalans are against it, but even the reasons and excuses behind the independence movement is massively flawed. For one, they are using the "self determination" from the UN charter, but that only applies to colonies. They also claim that a free Catalonia will automatically join the EU, which they wont. Catalonia has been part of Spain since 1492, but the independence movement deny this, and say it has only been since the Spanish War of Succession, where Catalonia sided with the Austrians against the French, and was "independent" for a couple of years... they were basically occupied. Another one that is funny, is that the independence movement claims the Spanish constitution is anti-Catalan... which is ironic, as the main writers of the constitution were... Catalan, and it gave/gives more self rule to Catalonia vs the rest of the regions. The list goes on and on.

And the kicker here is, that some of the leaders of the independence movement are actually convicted fraudsters.. which should send up some flares. Catalonia is the region with most debt and biggest deficit, even out doing conservative lead regions in Spain riddled with corruption.

Now is there and overreaction by the Madrid government and judiciary? Well yes and no. Problem is, one of the illegal things that the referendum legislation has, is that the day after the vote, if it is a yes, then it states that Catalonia is independent. No transition, no negotiation, no nothing. This has zero basis in law. So when should government step in? Being conservative, they chose to do it fast, instead of wait it out. I would have waited. For example, the Mayor of Barcelona, is against this whole thing and has asked the EU to mediate.

Oh and btw, one of the undefined reasons that the independence movement is doing this, is because there is a right wing PP government in power... they absolutely hate the PP as they see them as former Franco supporters (which could be argued).

But it is a mess.. big mess, and will be interesting to see tomorrow.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.

2) It is mostly the Catalan prosecutor and legal system that is ordering the police to do what they are doing, because parts of the legislative are breaking the law.

The whole Catalan independence movement is pretty much flawed. Polls show that most Catalans are against it, but even the reasons and excuses behind the independence movement is massively flawed. For one, they are using the "self determination" from the UN charter, but that only applies to colonies. They also claim that a free Catalonia will automatically join the EU, which they wont. Catalonia has been part of Spain since 1492, but the independence movement deny this, and say it has only been since the Spanish War of Succession, where Catalonia sided with the Austrians against the French, and was "independent" for a couple of years... they were basically occupied. Another one that is funny, is that the independence movement claims the Spanish constitution is anti-Catalan... which is ironic, as the main writers of the constitution were... Catalan, and it gave/gives more self rule to Catalonia vs the rest of the regions. The list goes on and on.

And the kicker here is, that some of the leaders of the independence movement are actually convicted fraudsters.. which should send up some flares. Catalonia is the region with most debt and biggest deficit, even out doing conservative lead regions in Spain riddled with corruption.

Now is there and overreaction by the Madrid government and judiciary? Well yes and no. Problem is, one of the illegal things that the referendum legislation has, is that the day after the vote, if it is a yes, then it states that Catalonia is independent. No transition, no negotiation, no nothing. This has zero basis in law. So when should government step in? Being conservative, they chose to do it fast, instead of wait it out. I would have waited. For example, the Mayor of Barcelona, is against this whole thing and has asked the EU to mediate.

Oh and btw, one of the undefined reasons that the independence movement is doing this, is because there is a right wing PP government in power... they absolutely hate the PP as they see them as former Franco supporters (which could be argued).

But it is a mess.. big mess, and will be interesting to see tomorrow.
Click to expand...

If most catalans are against it... Why block the referendum? Won't it fail to pass?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU:

I don't think I am misrepresenting the situation at all. I described what Spanish authorities are doing as part of Operation Anubis and did not comment on the legality or illegality of what is going on in Catalonia by Catalonian separatists. I asked if a Spanish policy of direct confrontation is wise, that is all.

So do you think it is wise and prudent to suppress the referendum or, as 17 Danish Parlimentary delegates have urged, that negotiation be used instead of direct confrontation?

Spanish police move to enforce ban on Catalan independence referendum | Reuters

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
The Spanish Government is moving to seize the electronic media infrastructure which Catlans are using to hold and count their intended referendum vote tomorrow. Spanish authorities are also set to seize public schools and keep them sealed and closed, schools which are under local Catlan jurisdiction, where the voting will take place. Catlan families with children are moving into these schools to pre-empt Spanish authorities from closing the schools. The Spanish government has threatened Catlan organisers and referendum volunteers with astronomical fines and jail time if they participate in the running of the referendum. Finally Spain is preparing to use force if the Catlan population comes out into the streets tomorrow.

Is this a wise course to thwart Catlan nationalism or will it only force such nationalists to operate under-ground? Further will such overt suppression radicalise Catlan separatists, creating a new long-term security problem for Spain not unlike the traditional Basque insurgency? Negotiation or confrontation, which is the wisest strategy?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

The Spanish government is being covered by the EU, because there are a number of regions in other member states that they are afraid mihht follow suite, if the Catalans are successful. Self determination of populations is not something the EU thinks highly of. Though Catalonia is part of the EU yhey are being told that they will lose their membership for separating from Spain, which will keep its membership.

But Madrid seems to be rather heavy handed and possibly counterproductive. I could easily imagine that this firms the will to break away.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.

2) It is mostly the Catalan prosecutor and legal system that is ordering the police to do what they are doing, because parts of the legislative are breaking the law.

The whole Catalan independence movement is pretty much flawed. Polls show that most Catalans are against it, but even the reasons and excuses behind the independence movement is massively flawed. For one, they are using the "self determination" from the UN charter, but that only applies to colonies. They also claim that a free Catalonia will automatically join the EU, which they wont. Catalonia has been part of Spain since 1492, but the independence movement deny this, and say it has only been since the Spanish War of Succession, where Catalonia sided with the Austrians against the French, and was "independent" for a couple of years... they were basically occupied. Another one that is funny, is that the independence movement claims the Spanish constitution is anti-Catalan... which is ironic, as the main writers of the constitution were... Catalan, and it gave/gives more self rule to Catalonia vs the rest of the regions. The list goes on and on.

And the kicker here is, that some of the leaders of the independence movement are actually convicted fraudsters.. which should send up some flares. Catalonia is the region with most debt and biggest deficit, even out doing conservative lead regions in Spain riddled with corruption.

Now is there and overreaction by the Madrid government and judiciary? Well yes and no. Problem is, one of the illegal things that the referendum legislation has, is that the day after the vote, if it is a yes, then it states that Catalonia is independent. No transition, no negotiation, no nothing. This has zero basis in law. So when should government step in? Being conservative, they chose to do it fast, instead of wait it out. I would have waited. For example, the Mayor of Barcelona, is against this whole thing and has asked the EU to mediate.

Oh and btw, one of the undefined reasons that the independence movement is doing this, is because there is a right wing PP government in power... they absolutely hate the PP as they see them as former Franco supporters (which could be argued).

But it is a mess.. big mess, and will be interesting to see tomorrow.
Click to expand...

It would have been smarter if the Spanish government had been more proactive and insisted on holding the referendum in the first place. As it is if they react with suppressive measures against the populace, they may create the monster they're trying to throttle.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.

2) It is mostly the Catalan prosecutor and legal system that is ordering the police to do what they are doing, because parts of the legislative are breaking the law.

The whole Catalan independence movement is pretty much flawed. Polls show that most Catalans are against it, but even the reasons and excuses behind the independence movement is massively flawed. For one, they are using the "self determination" from the UN charter, but that only applies to colonies. They also claim that a free Catalonia will automatically join the EU, which they wont. Catalonia has been part of Spain since 1492, but the independence movement deny this, and say it has only been since the Spanish War of Succession, where Catalonia sided with the Austrians against the French, and was "independent" for a couple of years... they were basically occupied. Another one that is funny, is that the independence movement claims the Spanish constitution is anti-Catalan... which is ironic, as the main writers of the constitution were... Catalan, and it gave/gives more self rule to Catalonia vs the rest of the regions. The list goes on and on.

And the kicker here is, that some of the leaders of the independence movement are actually convicted fraudsters.. which should send up some flares. Catalonia is the region with most debt and biggest deficit, even out doing conservative lead regions in Spain riddled with corruption.

Now is there and overreaction by the Madrid government and judiciary? Well yes and no. Problem is, one of the illegal things that the referendum legislation has, is that the day after the vote, if it is a yes, then it states that Catalonia is independent. No transition, no negotiation, no nothing. This has zero basis in law. So when should government step in? Being conservative, they chose to do it fast, instead of wait it out. I would have waited. For example, the Mayor of Barcelona, is against this whole thing and has asked the EU to mediate.

Oh and btw, one of the undefined reasons that the independence movement is doing this, is because there is a right wing PP government in power... they absolutely hate the PP as they see them as former Franco supporters (which could be argued).

But it is a mess.. big mess, and will be interesting to see tomorrow.
Click to expand...

In short, the people of Catalonia would like to express their opinion freely in the form of a non binding referendum and the central government it forcefully restricting that free expression.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Gonzo Rodeo said:
If most catalans are against it... Why block the referendum? Won't it fail to pass?
Click to expand...

Gonzo Rodeo:

Many Catalans who oppose the referendum refuse to participate in it. This means the 40-45% of the Catalan population who support the separatist cause may get a majority of the votes actually cast in this referendum since most of the opposition will not participate. By boycotting the referendum Catalans who oppose it increase its odds for success. The irony of politics is breathtaking.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Gonzo Rodeo said:
If most catalans are against it... Why block the referendum? Won't it fail to pass?
Click to expand...

Nope, because it is not an official one, then only those for independence will go to the voting booth. There has been "referendums" before, and all passed, but it was only a small portion of the population that voted... because it was not an official vote.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

joG said:
In short, the people of Catalonia would like to express their opinion freely in the form of a non binding referendum and the central government it forcefully restricting that free expression.
Click to expand...

It is not "non binding". The basis for the referendum, aka the supposed legal stuff, states clearly that if it passes, then the next day Catalonia is independent. The thing is, it is not a legal referendum, but the government of Catalonia says it is and will trigger "independence".
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

bearpoker said:
It would have been smarter if the Spanish government had been more proactive and insisted on holding the referendum in the first place. As it is if they react with suppressive measures against the populace, they may create the monster they're trying to throttle.
Click to expand...

Good point, but the problem here is, that referendums are usually countrywide.. not region wide. There is a whole bunch of legal issues including constitutional. Look at it this way.. if parts of Texas say they are going to leave Texas, then you get into a whole ****load of problems legally, constitutionally and so on.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
Good point, but the problem here is, that referendums are usually countrywide.. not region wide. There is a whole bunch of legal issues including constitutional. Look at it this way.. if parts of Texas say they are going to leave Texas, then you get into a whole ****load of problems legally, constitutionally and so on.
Click to expand...

PeteEU:

Two legally recognised separatist referenda have been held and thankfully defeated in the Province of Quebec (1980, 1995) without the rest of Canada voting so Catalonia's process is not as unprecedented as you may think.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
PeteEU:

Two legally recognised separatist referenda have been held and thankfully defeated in the Province of Quebec (1980, 1995) without the rest of Canada voting so Catalonia's process is not as unprecedented as you may think.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...
..........and in the bolded (by me) lies the rub. The Catalan referendum envisaged is not legal.

It contravenes the Spanish constitution which Catalonia, being a part of Spain, is bound by as much as any ot her province and actually agreed to as well.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The claim made earlier on that Catalonia is part of the EU is the usual uninformed (and thus ignorant) balderdash one has come to expect. Spain is part of the EU and Catalonia is a part of Spain

Catalonia is not an individual EU member that would lose its membership upon possible secession, it cannot lose what it does not hold.

As such (again upon possible secession, if successful) it would have to apply for EU-membership.

For the very first time.
 
Evilroddy said:
~........................... Negotiation or confrontation, which is the wisest strategy?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...
There isn't any good guys in this whole mess, neither side having covered itself in glory.

Where Spain is legally in the clear, a political issue is being handled by judiciary means. Where that still makes Madrid right (and Barcelona wrong) in the legal sense, Rajoy and his whole other bunch of corrupt crooks are exercising the sensitivity and grace of the bull in the china shop.

Their Catalan opposites (just as corrupt) are no better in that they as equally play on public emotion to further their political interests and positions.

This is the chicken game par excellence to see who swerves their car first, but with either side preferring to crash over showing some sense.

Frankly speaking (from someone living in Spain), they totally deserve each other. Only trouble being that if people get hurt, it'll be those least responsible (either side) for organizing this insanity.

If I had my way I'd have the whole bunch of opportunistic politicos on both sides rounded up and shot.

Okay, for the sake of greater moderation, at least publicly flogged.
 
Chagos said:
There isn't any good guys in this whole mess, neither side having covered itself in glory.

Where Spain is legally in the clear, a political issue is being handled by judiciary means. Where that still makes Madrid right (and Barcelona wrong) in the legal sense, Rajoy and his whole other bunch of corrupt crooks are exercising the sensitivity and grace of the bull in the china shop.

Their Catalan opposites (just as corrupt) are no better in that they as equally play on public emotion to further their political interests and positions.

This is the chicken game par excellence to see who swerves their car first, but with either side preferring to crash over showing some sense.

Frankly speaking (from someone living in Spain), they totally deserve each other. Only trouble being that if people get hurt, it'll be those least responsible (either side) for organizing this insanity.

If I had my way I'd have the whole bunch of opportunistic politicos on both sides rounded up and shot.

Okay, for the sake of greater moderation, at least publicly flogged.
Click to expand...

Chagos:

If I had my way I'd have the whole bunch of opportunistic politicos on both sides rounded up and shot.

Okay, for the sake of greater moderation, at least publicly flogged.
Click to expand...

LOL! It's good to see moderation in Spain but it seems the blood of Torquemada still flows diluted in some Spanish veins!

Best of luck on October 1st! !Y Viva Espana!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Chagos said:
..........and in the bolded (by me) lies the rub. The Catalan referendum envisaged is not legal.

It contravenes the Spanish constitution which Catalonia, being a part of Spain, is bound by as much as any ot her province and actually agreed to as well.
Click to expand...

Chagos:

The two Quebec referenda were not legally recognised until after the event. At the time of the first one it was not seen as legal and by the time of the second it was, but its procedures were called into legal question. Thus both to some degree were only legally recognised post eventum.

Cheers and good luck tomorrow/today.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
PeteEU:

Two legally recognised separatist referenda have been held and thankfully defeated in the Province of Quebec (1980, 1995) without the rest of Canada voting so Catalonia's process is not as unprecedented as you may think.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

This is Spain not Canada... different countries and laws.
 
Borders have changed greatly over the years. Usually with violence. It would really good to see borders changing without violence. Even in the US I think our Civil War was a mistake. Yes slavery was a problem. Yes slavery was worth fighting over. I still think we could have fought the war and still let the South secede. We should have simply fought to free the slaves just like we went to free the Jews and other groups in Germany.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.

2) It is mostly the Catalan prosecutor and legal system that is ordering the police to do what they are doing, because parts of the legislative are breaking the law.

The whole Catalan independence movement is pretty much flawed. Polls show that most Catalans are against it, but even the reasons and excuses behind the independence movement is massively flawed. For one, they are using the "self determination" from the UN charter, but that only applies to colonies. They also claim that a free Catalonia will automatically join the EU, which they wont. Catalonia has been part of Spain since 1492, but the independence movement deny this, and say it has only been since the Spanish War of Succession, where Catalonia sided with the Austrians against the French, and was "independent" for a couple of years... they were basically occupied. Another one that is funny, is that the independence movement claims the Spanish constitution is anti-Catalan... which is ironic, as the main writers of the constitution were... Catalan, and it gave/gives more self rule to Catalonia vs the rest of the regions. The list goes on and on.

And the kicker here is, that some of the leaders of the independence movement are actually convicted fraudsters.. which should send up some flares. Catalonia is the region with most debt and biggest deficit, even out doing conservative lead regions in Spain riddled with corruption.

Now is there and overreaction by the Madrid government and judiciary? Well yes and no. Problem is, one of the illegal things that the referendum legislation has, is that the day after the vote, if it is a yes, then it states that Catalonia is independent. No transition, no negotiation, no nothing. This has zero basis in law. So when should government step in? Being conservative, they chose to do it fast, instead of wait it out. I would have waited. For example, the Mayor of Barcelona, is against this whole thing and has asked the EU to mediate.

Oh and btw, one of the undefined reasons that the independence movement is doing this, is because there is a right wing PP government in power... they absolutely hate the PP as they see them as former Franco supporters (which could be argued).

But it is a mess.. big mess, and will be interesting to see tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Your attitude is exactly why us British have decieded to leave.

The Catalan people obviously do have the right to decied if they wish to be part of Spain.

The Spanish government has the legally correct position of saying that the vote has no legal status as it has not followed the correct rules. So they would have no legal need to recognise the result. If the result of the not legal (also not illegal) poll was that they wsihed to leave then the Spanish governement would be mature and ecent if they said that "OK, we will have to do this properly and legally". Then have a proper campaign and proper plebicite.

As it is Madrid is practically guaranteeing the total breakup of Spain.

The days of centralsm being correct and necessary are over. Get used to the mess of democracy. You don't get the result you want, often.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
It is not "non binding". The basis for the referendum, aka the supposed legal stuff, states clearly that if it passes, then the next day Catalonia is independent. The thing is, it is not a legal referendum, but the government of Catalonia says it is and will trigger "independence".
Click to expand...

Again, that attitude will break appart the EU you love with such beauracratic rules and centralising anti-democratic procedures.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Tim the plumber said:
Again, that attitude will break appart the EU you love with such beauracratic rules and centralising anti-democratic procedures.
Click to expand...

So you are suddenly against the rule of law?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Tim the plumber said:
Your attitude is exactly why us British have decieded to leave.
Click to expand...


False.

The Catalan people obviously do have the right to decied if they wish to be part of Spain.
Click to expand...

So this means of course that goes for everyone else right? Texas, the Palestinians and so on .. right?

The Spanish government has the legally correct position of saying that the vote has no legal status as it has not followed the correct rules. So they would have no legal need to recognise the result. If the result of the not legal (also not illegal) poll was that they wsihed to leave then the Spanish governement would be mature and ecent if they said that "OK, we will have to do this properly and legally". Then have a proper campaign and proper plebicite.
Click to expand...

Problem is that the Catalan government stated that if there was a positive vote, then they would be legally independent tomorrow.

As it is Madrid is practically guaranteeing the total breakup of Spain.
Click to expand...

Doubt that. If anything it guarantees the death of the PP party in large parts of Spain.

The days of centralsm being correct and necessary are over. Get used to the mess of democracy. You don't get the result you want, often.
Click to expand...

So you are basically against the concept of country and are an anarchist... /clap.
 
That’s a disingenuous use of the word anarchy.


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