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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra said:
"O and Hill haters" must be code for what Hillary called "deplorables", which are portrayed as retrograde Neanderthals from the hinterlands who are mostly illiterate and otherwise intellectually handicapped, such people couldn't be expected to find Spain (let alone Catalonia) on a map. Only urban-dwelling, well-educated liberal cosmopolitan elites know about the disenfranchised minorities struggling for self-determination anywhere.
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:lamo:lamo

Well, to chalk one up for the "deplorables", the cosmopolitan-enlightened in the States are probably just as ignorant on the impossibility of a Yorkshireman ever using Geordie as the Neanderthals are.:lol:

That comes, to stay within the spirit here, right after "Yanks think that Africa is a country".

Never mind Evilroddy's location clearly stating as not being the US, but what the hell?

As we say across the channel, "you can always tell a Yorkshireman but you can't tell him much."

Make of the latter part what you wish, various interpretations are possible. ;)
 
Chagos said:
"Yanks think that Africa is a country".
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Naturally, after all they think America is a country too!
"you can always tell a Yorkshireman but you can't tell him much."
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I don't think that means what you imply (I've been there).
 
Reviewing Spanish media I get the impression the regional elections in Catalonia will feature higher voter turnout than in the past. Regional elections are like the midterms in the US, generally of little interest unless there’s some controversy.
Polarization and anticipated lack of factional shifting lead most pollsters to conclude the outcome will depend on increased participation in non-separatist districts or the loss of interest among separatists. Analysts agree data shows higher motivation; “those who oppose independence see these elections as more important than others before, they see decisions made by the Parlament have important effects on their daily lives” says Berta Barbet, a researcher at Barcelona’s Universitat Autònoma. https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/02/actualidad/1512236136_079843.html
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I think this is an important difference with the Brexit referendum, people in Catalonia are much more aware of the consequences of their vote. The irredentists are determined Madrid should know they want out, while others are more concerned with peace, stability and prosperity.

Analysts agree the level of participation rises with income and education, lower classes, the “working poor” and marginalized are ignorant, don’t appreciate the importance of this regional election in particular, they see the same sort of politicians doing the same sort of deals for the same self-interested reasons taking no account for their needs or interests.

Meanwhile Pablo Iglesias (leader of lefty party “Podemos”) is concerned the Catalonian efforts at independence have awakened fascist nationalism in Spain.
Iglesias was particularly harsh against separatists whom he accused of “awakening fascism” in Spain. The Podemos leader said he had urged separatists publicly and in private, to appreciate a unilateral declaration of independence would not be viable, that this would have serious consequences for Spain and the region. Nonetheless, this course animated the extreme left “intentionally or by accident”. Iglesias then noted “48% of the vote gives one the right to govern, not independence”. https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/12/03/catalunya/1512306979_203983.html
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I noted this pleasant resurgence of patriotism, Iglesias (like all lefties) can’t distinguish patriotism from fascism. The fact remains that Catalonia experiences massive immigration from the rest of Spain in the sixties as industrialization in this regions in particular took off, and that those immigrants (with children raised there who speak Catalonian) don’t feel (and are not seen) as Catalonians.

El Mundo speculates on the regional elections:
Something important has changed: The cry “volem votar” (we want to vote) is now unanimous, there isn’t just a single part of the citizenry that claims this, to the contrary, everyone wants Catalonians to express their views at the ballot. From the ballot we will reach our conclusions; whether the Generalitat’s routine for the past 40 years may be changed by the demands from constitutionalists, if separatism will be expressed firmly backed by political parties despite the recent convulsions, or that everything continues more or less as it has. La fina levedad política de la lista de Puigdemont | Cataluña Home | EL MUNDO
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But there are divergences within the separatists:
Second in command at PDeCAT (Marta Pascal) warned Puigdemont that after the elections “major strategic decisions, electoral agreements and policy decisions, will be made by the leadership of the party.”

The warning, in an interview by daily periodical Ara, was made after Puigdemont threatened to turn these elections into some sort of referendum over the application of Madrid’s imposition of Article 155, a sort of referendum of the legality of the current situation.

This approach clashes directly with that of the PDeCAT upon Madrid’s intervention, which recognizes unilateral independence is an impossible aim given opposition from Madrid.

Observing how Puigdemont seeks to maintain the irredentist cause while Junqueras assures he will retain constitutional forms and builds a moderate Catalonian following gaining support for Esquerra, Pascal seeks to cultivate moderate Catalonians. Thus she seeks to disassociate herself and her party fro the irrendentists. Elecciones catalanas: El PDeCAT impedirá a Puigdemont tomar decisiones tras el 21-D | EL MUNDO
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A Spanish judge has withdrawn the extradition request for Puigemont and the four other Catalan leaders on the lamb in Belgium. A curious development. Is it because Spanish and Belgium laws don't mesh smoothly in the areas of rebellion and misappropriation of public funds, or is it because Spain wants to punish these five far more than any extradition request would allow and chooses to wait until it has the five in its clutches? Will they wake up one day in Spain through extrodinary rendition and learn the hard way that, "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!", while a wild-eyed, proto-Dominican and modern-day Torquemada sets the pendulum-blade a swinging above them?;) Moo-ha-ha!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Technically a Spanish Supreme Court judge has withdrawn the European arrest order. For any one of those to actually be effective within and without Spain, a case of "double criminality" needs to exist, i.e the crime must exist in both the country issuing such an arrest order and the country executing it.

As such Belgium might have sent the chief idiot and his just as stupid minions back to Spain on the condition that they be charged only with misappropriation of public funds, Belgian laws on sedition and rebellion not matching their Spanish equivalent.

The Spanish arrest order (national) remains upheld.

Can't really treat one bunch one way (because they fled in time) and the other bunch the other way (because they didn't).

Since the chief idiot, fool that he is, is nevertheless not stupid enough to return to Spain voluntarily, I guess that means he won't be running on Dec-21. Same goes for his other dumb minions that fled with him.

Elegant solution and the misappropriated public funds can be pursued later via other means. Carles Tonto needn't really be present when they seize whatever of his (nice house for instance which he won't be living in anyway in the foreseeable future).

Ironically he's found his own Catalan independence and that one being Belgium may not be as bad as a Spanish prison but it isn't all that much better either.:2razz:
 
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Yes, Chagos is right, since Belgium does not have a crime that fits the description of sedition in Spanish law, there was a risk the Belgian court could grant extradition on condition Puigdemont (and his also exiled consellers) not be charged with sedition.

This is an elegant solution and it has the effect of removing one of Puigdemont's claims; that he had to remain in Belgium to respond to their judicial proceedings. Now it is evident he cannot return simply because he would get arrested, charged and likely convicted -and that he would prefer not to get thrown in jail.
 
The most recent surveys show separatists in Catalonia will fall short of a majority (just barely). Both factions (separatists and constitutionalists) are quite close. The survey shows Ciudadanos (constitutionalists) have gained the most since the previous elections, conservative PP lost the most. Separatists Esquerra and Junts per Catalunya (which together were Junts Pel Si) neither gain nor lose.

The most recent survey indicates record turnouts that could reach 82% and the likely loss of an absolute majority by separatists (who would take 66 or 67 seats –a majority is 68). A close struggle for first place between Ciutadans, Esquerra and an emerging Junts per Catalunya.

The seccesionists loss results particularly from the fall of CUP which would lose half the seats it held. Junts pel Sí (ERC and the rebranded PDeCAT led by Puigdemont) would basically repeat their prior performance with 39,7% and 61-62 seats. Together the secessionists would get less than 45% of the votes (3% less than two years ago). Cataluña: "El soberanismo se aleja de la mayoría"

Meanwhile Puigdemont says if the separatists gain a majority he must be reinstated, while Esquerra (about half the separatist vote wants former VP Junqueras to be president).

Catalonian politics are confusing, Barcelona votes for 85 of the 135 seats in the regional government and has their own parties and candidates. Some of the regional parties are running together -just in Barcelona. These features are among separatists, national parties like PP, the PSC and Ciudadanos don't do this, Podemos does it, but less.
 

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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Problems for the Mossos:
“The harm which has resulted from this process has affected the entire force” a high-ranking officer assured us. Over lunch he went over a lengthy list of problems, which now required the Mossos to repair everything they’d accomplished in over two decades. “We need to rebuild our relationship with the courts and prosecutors, as well as with the Guardia Civil and National Police, and also with political figures, along the way we need to maintain the relationship between command and the force on the streets.”

Former regional government conseller for interior Joaquim Form’s (an avowed separatist) arrival three months before the referendum, sowed distrust in the Guardia Civil and National Police. Trapero set off alarms when members of the Guardia Civil were trapped 18 hours in the regional government’s offices for the Economy (searching for records of the illegal referedum’s financing). “On that date we lost patience with Trapero and his followers” a Mossos detective who has worked with Trapero told us. “The role of the Mossos as static witnesses on the day of the referendum was the final push into the abyss of law enforcement credibility” the detective said.

“Nobody wanted to go in with batons, but to send officers with just notebooks was a mistake. We didn’t do the job, this is killing our image as a politically neutral force” a commander told us. Trapero is not believed to support separatism, “he tried to satisfy everyone (separatists and constitutionalists) and this was not possible” an regional government Interior official told us.

Once it was evident the Mossos would not impede the illegal referendum denunciations followed, witnesses recalled the judge of Catalonia’s Supreme Court who ordered Trapero to prevent voting could not contain his anger; “you disobeyed me!” he denounced (followed by ‘thicker’ words).

After the regional government’s ouster there have been tentative efforts at rapprochement between the judiciary and Mossos. Only recently has the Chief justice at the Catalonian Supreme Court restored responsibility for security at the Court to the Mossos. The regional government’s Interior offices see restoring relations with the courts and prosecutors as a priority, otherwise the Mossos would be relegated to patrolling, traffic and low level crime, with anti-terrorism and criminal investigation in the hands of the national forces.

The effects of the referendum are now part of the history of politics and the police in Catalonia. Pictures of the National Police and Guardia Civil assaulting voters contrasted with those of the Mossos standing by, but a there will be a reckoning. Two and a half months since the referendum a time bomb ticks in the midst of the Mossos as they fear the consequences of following unlawful orders. About 200 officers already have been questioned by Internal Affairs, some have also been summoned by the courts.

“Concatenated charges have ruined the relationship between command and the force” a spokesman from the officer’s union told us. “many were sent out with just a roll of tape and a notebook to confront hundreds of people, and now they are asked to explain themselves.”

Among the issues pending detonation is the Guardia Civil’s investigation of the lack of enforcement by the Mossos, they've seized records of hundreds of hours of communications from commanders. According to some sources the audios imply “complete involvement” in the unlawful referendum. Another pending matter is the analysis of emails by Trapero.

Ties with the National Police and Guardia Civil will be the most difficult to restore. Now there is a coldness between commanders, among patrolling officers insults are common. In Lerida and Gerona Mossos were acknowledged as “cowards” or “rats” by Spanish police.

This crisis has created uncertainty in the highest levels of the Mossos. The regional Interior office disregarded those who called for Trapero’s complete removal, they opted for a more subdued change. Second in command Ferran López was promoted and he resolved successive promotions to fill the gaps. Madrid highlights the “respect” they have for Lopez’s decisions and he reiterates his position is “temporary”. Some expect Miquel Esquius will become the regional police chief after the regional elections. Three other contenders apparently will be demoted (including the one in charge of official escorts who facilitated Puigdemont’s escape).

Madrid says that after the regional elections the Mossos will recover their autonomy, between now and then the force recovers and tries to defend itself. Trapero has only spoken to put distance between what has ruined his career; when Puigdemont urged him to join his campaign Trapero responded “don’t even ask”. Independencia de Cataluña: Mossos: Nadie se fía de nadie | EL MUNDO
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

CUP (the anarchic anti-establishment separatist party) has stated they will boycott the Govern resulting from the regional elections unless those elected are committed to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Surveys and polls anticipate other separatist parties will secure about 62 delegates to the Govern and CUP will have 5 (68 are required for a majority).
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra said:
CUP (the anarchic anti-establishment separatist party) has stated they will boycott the Govern resulting from the regional elections unless those elected are committed to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Surveys and polls anticipate other separatist parties will secure about 62 delegates to the Govern and CUP will have 5 (68 are required for a majority).
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Plus Ultra:

I am confused. I thought the word "Govern" in Catalonia meant an executive council, similar to the cabinet in the British tradition. Are the places on the Govern filled by elections or are members appointed to it by the prime minister after elections? From the context of your post it sounds like you're referring to CUP boycotting the elected legislative assembly. What have I got wrong here?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
Plus Ultra:

I am confused. I thought the word "Govern" in Catalonia meant an executive council, similar to the cabinet in the British tradition. Are the places on the Govern filled by elections or are members appointed to it by the prime minister after elections? From the context of your post it sounds like you're referring to CUP boycotting the elected legislative assembly. What have I got wrong here?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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British tradition pft.. no European tradition. To govern, you need 50.01% of the seats in parliament. This roughly also corresponds to 50.01% of the vote, which is not something that happens under "British tradition".

Now with so many parties in Catalonia, you would need a coalition government.. also very not British tradition. And this is where it will get tricky for any side with a majority of seats..well slightly less than for the pro-Spain side. The independence side is split a long left and right.. far right, far left.. basically the only thing they agree on is some sort of independence. All other policies.. HAHAHA, no way.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The Government of Catalonia (Generalitat de Catalunya) consists of the Parliament (which has 135 delegates), the President and the Executive Council of Catalonia (which is the President’s cabinet, known as the Govern). The president of the Generalitat appoints Consellers to his cabinet. Typically these appointments reflect arrangements with the different political parties according to the number of delegates elected to the Parliament. The political party with the greatest number of delegates designates the President who then tries to form a government by enlisting the support of enough delegates to form a majority (bartering Conseller portfolios for Parliament delegate votes). The former Govern consisted of a president and vice-president with 12 Ministries, a Secretary and a Spokesman. The president can create additional ministries.

Thus when CUP says it will boycott the Govern unless the President affirmatively commits to unilateral independence, what they are saying is that CUP's anticipated 5 delegates to the Parliament will not add their votes to those of the 62 delegates Esquerra and PDeCat are expected to get (preventing them from forming a majority).

The Catalonian election in 4 days will be the tenth time the region has gone to the polls in 7 years. These elections indicate the separatist process has had a strong effect. Now, Esquerra and Ciudadanos are battling for a majority while in 2010 these two got less than 10% of the vote.

Voters in the region are very engaged and this is evident from the growing voter turnout; 59% voted in the 2010 regional election, 68% voted in 2012 and 77% in 2015, it is expected over 80% will vote this time.

Conventional political parties not engaged in the separatist issue have disappeared. Social Democrat CiU (Convergencia I Unio), which had 62 delegates in 2010 was dissolved. Since 2014 Convergencia was rebranded for 6 different elections. The socialist PSC, which had 52 delegates in 1999, would count as a success if they could retain the 28 they got in 2010. Center-right conservative PP which had 11 delegates in 2015 will likely lose about half of them this time.

Separatism has radicalized the voters. While in 2010 CiU and PSC got the most votes, now all parties have gone to extremes, Esquerra and Convergencia are more separatist while Ciudadanos, PP and PSC have become more pro-Spain. The parties in the middle PSC and Convergencia lost support while those on the extremes (Ciudadanos and Esquerra) gained followers.

Now Catalonian society is equally divided according to ethnicity, with 37% of the Catalonians who have Catalonian parents favoring separatism and an equal number of Catalonians whose parents migrated to the region from the rest of Spain opposed. These two groups also feature different financial outlooks with higher unemployment, lower education and more poverty among anti-separatist Catalonians of immigrant descent.

Between 2006 and 2012 the percentage of Catalonians who felt their financial situation had worsened rose from 30% to 79%. Unemployment, cutbacks in social spending and evictions have had tremendous impact and separatist parties have promised independence will improve things.The economic crisis and austerity measures have fueled dissatisfaction with the government in Madrid.

Now the economic crisis is having the opposite effect and is mobilizing poorly paid service sector workers concerned over the dramatic drop in tourism and the flight of thousands of major corporations, 35% of the Catalonians expect their economy will worsen, most worried are those who support Ciudadanos (55%), followed by PSC (51%) and PP (48%), while wealthier and better educated supporters of Esquerra and PDeCat are less concerned with just 23% pessimistic about the economy.
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/12/15/actualidad/1513358503_871139.html
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Well, back to square one.

Not surprisingly I'd add.

Only major change lying in that Rajoy got his eye blackened (heck, both of them).

Remains to be seen what effect that has on him in overall Spain. I suspect it'll make him even more popular in Spain itself. And fear that it'll make him even more stone-headed in dealing with Catalonia.

The latter being unchanged from Dec-20 or October. That the separatist bloc lost two seats really making no difference, seeing how it still maintains the majority.

Ciudadanos (pro-union) now showing to be the strongest party being the only positive, even where they don't have (can't get) enough seats to rule. And if they'd managed to get the 3 or 4 additional seats needed, the rift down Catalonian society would still persist as much as it does now.

Interesting times ahead.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Well, that backs the 'referendum' "result" up pretty unequivocally.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

I'm certainly no expert on Catalonia specifically and Spain in general, but I could not help but notice that some voters when questioned said that part of their vote was a reaction to the heavy-handed violence meted out by the Spanish-controlled police during and immediately before the illegitimate October referendum. Is this electoral victory partially the result of the political and emotional blow-back from the way that Spanish authorities chose to handle the "October Crisis" in Catalonia?

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra: thank you for your informative posts on Catalonia.

It seems to me that all democrats should begin to add the right of self-determination to the bundle of basic rights that define a democratic society. It's not always an easy question: should this be exercisable by a simple majority in a one-off vote, or should a decision of such consequence require something stronger (a substantial majority, and/or multiple affirmative votes) ... and the really tricky issue, what happens when two or more tribal groups inhabit the same piece of geography, as in Northern Ireland, the former Yugoslavia, etc.

Nonetheless, I believe that the sacredness of established borders is something we should jettison.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

I fail to understand what was the point of fresh elections now. Pro-independence parties keep the majority as expected, they will rule in a coalition as expected.

Puigdemont celebrated with smiles on his face in Brussels describing it ’a slap in the face’ for Madrid...pfff just a waste of money and energy.

Nothing new in Catalonia.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
I'm certainly no expert on Catalonia specifically and Spain in general, but I could not help but notice that some voters when questioned said that part of their vote was a reaction to the heavy-handed violence meted out by the Spanish-controlled police during and immediately before the illegitimate October referendum. Is this electoral victory partially the result of the political and emotional blow-back from the way that Spanish authorities chose to handle the "October Crisis" in Catalonia?

Cheers?
Evilroddy.
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You've hit it, that (bolded by me) sure played its role.

Beyond which, the problem that remains is that this "victory" is useless when it comes to sustainably governing Catalonia. The "great victory" that the indpendentistas are shouting about now has actually left them slightly weaker than the last elections did, but that's neither here nor there either, seeing how an anti-independentista victory by an equally slight margin wouldn't work towards stability much either.

Without digressing into the "popular vote vs. assigned power" claptrap (as useless here as arguing over the electoral college in US), yesterday's percentages, if applied to a referendum rather than elections, would have been against secession. Barely, but still, seeing how the independentistas fell short of the +50 pct of all votes given. They got between 47 and 48 pct.

That kind of margin is nothing to make decisions upon, either way, and it's certainly nothing that'll instil confidence in industry and finance.

What is far more important is the fact that the three secessionist parties still holding the parliamentary majority couldn't be more divided than they are. And that the radical left in that bunch (basically commies) has lost more than half its seats isn't helping separatism either.

But, returning to the initial issue here, the handling of the October referendum by Madrid was disastrous and the Catalan branch of PM Rajoy's PP felt that yesterday. But bear in mind that the votes it lost didn't go to the separatists, they went to the anti-separatist Ciudadanos.

Separatist parties actually lost compared to 2015, just not to the extent that Madrid had hoped for.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

So, will Madrid continue the direct rule of Catalonia or hand back authority and local control to this common front of separatist interests? Given that Madrid called for this election, can it now ignore the results and maintain direct rule or must it accept the results and re-delegate power back to the separatist-dominated Catalonian government? What role can Carlos Puigdemont play from afar now and what of the jailed politicians and organisers in Spanish custody? Will they be released pending trial or will they remain incarcerated? These matters are powerful symbols for the separatist causes and could be difficult obstacles to achieving a rapprochement and mending a broken Spanish unity.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Interesting to observe was that with of all the post election speeches held, Ines Arrimadas (of the biggest winner, Ciudadanos) was the only one to speak in both Catalan and Spanish (Castellano).

All others choosing (depending on affiliation) either Catalan or Castellano.

If there's anyone looking to do something about the rift running down Catalan society itself as well as between Catalonia and overall Spain, it seems to be her. She's certainly voiced that ambition.

Also she's young (36), charming and, most importantly, highly intelligent. Everyone else involved on both sides of the aisle seemingly entrenched in bone-headed obstinacy that results from intransigence coming with slowly advancing age.

There shows to be a future there, both for her and for the country.
 
One need see that like in most Western (and other) democracies, the Spanish constitution dictates a clear separation of power between executive, legislative and judiciary.

Naturally those that hold the chief seat will attempt to appoint a judiciary that they favour, but the principle remains and is protected by sensible hurdles (to a point).

As such the handling of the legal aspects that October brought, remains up to to the judiciary.

As to cashing article 155 in order to pass power back to a Catalan government, such a government needs to be constituted first of all.
 
Doug1943 said:
the sacredness of established borders is something we should jettison.
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I completely disagree, I think some features of the sovereign may be adjusted, but the sanctity of borders is paramount, this is what defines the nation, we can remove import duty, relax border controls, facilitate crossings without passports, but the demarcation separating land of one country from that of another cannot be erased.

The Catalonian crisis is due to the failure to appreciate the importance territorial integrity still has. Evidently this isn’t ust a Spanish problem as the entire EU, the UN and OECD all immediately rejected Catalonia’s claims, not a single government anywhere in the world acknowledged any Catalonian Republic, and plenty were quick to recognize this was a matter of exclusively Spanish jurisdiction.

Actually the only basis by which Catalonia could claim independence is as a non-self governing territory, but this regions certainly does not lack self-government, in fact Catalonia exercises a greater degree of autonomous government than the provincial government os any other EU member, more than any US States, much more self-government than States of Canada or Germany, only Swiss Cantons in some cases may have greater independence than Catalonia.

This issue raises very interesting considerations; here we have a region with an eminently international orientation, one which has grown and prospered in large measure thanks to it’s openness to others, promoting instead a primitive nativism of ethnic supremacy completely alien to the regional character. Public opinion surveys in the region show 37% of people born in the region from Catalonian parents favor independence, while 37% of people born in Catalonia from parents who migrated there from elsewhere in Spain oppose independence. Right away we see the people of Catalonia are divided along ethnic lines, this is not a positive in any society.

Another important aspect of the societal divide is the economy; the wealthy and upper middle class in Catalonia support independence much more than the poor and lower middle class, curiously Catalonians of Catalonian ancestry are on average wealthier than Catalonians of immigrant ancestry. The bottom has fallen out of the region’s tourism industry and over 3,000 major corporations in all sectors have relocated from Catalonia, this has many there worried about their future, especially at the lower levels in the service sector.

The elections have reaffirmed the prevalence of separatism, they aren’t quite as strong as they were before, but they are more powerful than the constitutionalists, what remain to be seen is whether separatists will maintain their determination to unilaterally secede taking into account what they now know; that the EU is not waiting to embrace them, that they won’t be able to use the Euro, that Spain can just as unilaterally outlaw their government and that the rest of the world sees their conduct as ridiculous.
 
Plus Ultra said:
I completely disagree, I think some features of the sovereign may be adjusted, but the sanctity of borders is paramount, this is what defines the nation, we can remove import duty, relax border controls, facilitate crossings without passports, but the demarcation separating land of one country from that of another cannot be erased.

The Catalonian crisis is due to the failure to appreciate the importance territorial integrity still has. Evidently this isn’t ust a Spanish problem as the entire EU, the UN and OECD all immediately rejected Catalonia’s claims, not a single government anywhere in the world acknowledged any Catalonian Republic, and plenty were quick to recognize this was a matter of exclusively Spanish jurisdiction.

Actually the only basis by which Catalonia could claim independence is as a non-self governing territory, but this regions certainly does not lack self-government, in fact Catalonia exercises a greater degree of autonomous government than the provincial government os any other EU member, more than any US States, much more self-government than States of Canada or Germany, only Swiss Cantons in some cases may have greater independence than Catalonia.

This issue raises very interesting considerations; here we have a region with an eminently international orientation, one which has grown and prospered in large measure thanks to it’s openness to others, promoting instead a primitive nativism of ethnic supremacy completely alien to the regional character. Public opinion surveys in the region show 37% of people born in the region from Catalonian parents favor independence, while 37% of people born in Catalonia from parents who migrated there from elsewhere in Spain oppose independence. Right away we see the people of Catalonia are divided along ethnic lines, this is not a positive in any society.

Another important aspect of the societal divide is the economy; the wealthy and upper middle class in Catalonia support independence much more than the poor and lower middle class, curiously Catalonians of Catalonian ancestry are on average wealthier than Catalonians of immigrant ancestry. The bottom has fallen out of the region’s tourism industry and over 3,000 major corporations in all sectors have relocated from Catalonia, this has many there worried about their future, especially at the lower levels in the service sector.

The elections have reaffirmed the prevalence of separatism, they aren’t quite as strong as they were before, but they are more powerful than the constitutionalists, what remain to be seen is whether separatists will maintain their determination to unilaterally secede taking into account what they now know; that the EU is not waiting to embrace them, that they won’t be able to use the Euro, that Spain can just as unilaterally outlaw their government and that the rest of the world sees their conduct as ridiculous.
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Living in cognitive dissonance as the independentistas are, it seems pretty clear that wrt what I've bolded they know nothing at all, simply by being in frenzied denial over any of it.

The more comical example currently being Puigdemont demanding that he be allowed to return home, implication being that he's not permitted to on account of Spain not wanting him.

Quite the contrary is the case, he's wanted very much.:mrgreen:
 
There is discussion in Spain on how to deal with the incarcerated and indicted former regional government members, it is not a simple matter, the law must be upheld, but those charged do have political obligations to their supporters, just as Madrid has to the nation. Most anticipate ¨moderated¨prosecution, this likely depends on the magnitude of the misappropriation of public funds for separatist purposes, and of course, the reaction to this disclosure by whatever becomes the government of the region.

Presently we have a separatist majority in varying factions, just as before.
 
And now we welcome Tabarnia, based on the entirely logical proposal that those parts of Catalunya least in favour of independence should in turn secede:

1514288983569.jpg


¿Qué es Tabarnia?
 
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