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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

It's a good thing those dumbheads up there nowadays don't have any fighting force of significance.
Thank God they don't have the right to bear arms?
 
Many of my own observations noted here already confirmed in this Wall Street Journal article:
One of the first things a visitor to Madrid will notice these days is the Spanish flags festooned from balconies across the capital, something that usually only ever happens when the national football team is playing in a major tournament.

The same is true in other Spanish cities. It is a mark of how the crisis triggered by the regional government in Catalonia’s decision to hold an independence referendum that was illegal under the Spanish constitution and subsequently declare independence has reawakened previously dormant Spanish nationalism, including among the 54% of Catalans who according to a recent poll oppose independence.

A flag that for historic reasons had until now been seen by some Spaniards as divisive is being embraced as a symbol of national unity and defiance against what many regard as unfair criticism of Spain’s response to the referendum in parts of the international media.
I described this rebirth or recovery of patriotism rather than nationalism because the “historic reasons” the Spanish flag was seen as divisive by some in Spain, was Franco’s use of it precisely “as a symbol of national unity”. Spaniards who express patriotism are (or until recently have been) branded ‘fachas’ (fascists) due to the association of patriotism with nationalism and nationalism with Franco’s rule.

Underestimating the strength of feeling that the push for independence would provoke among pro-Spanish Catalans and elsewhere in Spain was just one of a series of misjudgments by Catalonia’s separatist leaders, five of whom including the former president, Carles Puigdemont, are now in exile in Belgium. Eight others are being held in prison on charges of sedition, rebellion and misuse of public funds.

Many Spaniards regard Catalan independence as an existential issue for the country: the breakaway of one of the nation’s richest regions would be sure to lead to demands for independence by other regions as Spain’s budgetary arrangements unraveled.

The belief that Catalonia is like the capstone in an arch —remove it and the country will fall apart— has ensured Madrid strong public backing for its hard-line efforts to respect the constitution and rule of law, which have included imposing direct rule on Catalonia and calling new regional elections to be held on December 21.
This was a dumb Catalonian mistake, one would expect such a reaction as ultimately the separatists are telling the rest of the country that they are better than them. I think this was induced by the unnatural suppression of patriotism due to it’s association with Franco’s nationalism. What nobody realized, even outside Catalonia, was the strength of this patriotic feeling as literally millions of Spaniards poured into the streets all over the country and even in Catalonia, to demand national unity.
The Catalan separatist leadership also failed to anticipate the economic damage caused by their independence bid. Since October 1, when it briefly looked as if the Spanish state had lost control, 2,276 businesses representing 85% of the region’s market capitalization and 36.5% of regional gross domestic product have quit Catalonia, shifting their legal domicile elsewhere in Spain, according to the Spanish business lobby group Circulo de Empresarios.

In particular, the region’s two biggest banks, CaixaBank and Sabadell, have shifted their headquarters in a bid to reassure depositors. These moves will erode Catalonia’s tax base, particularly if jobs and ancillary services follow. Indeed, speaking at a rally in Barcelona over the weekend, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy urged businesses to remain in Catalonia to avoid inflicting further damage on the region. https://www.wsj.com/articles/spain-sees-signs-that-tide-is-turning-in-catalonia-1510524920
This is another point I raised and it is more important for Catalonians since they are culturally a much more business-minded community, this is why they are the commercial powerhouse of Spain, why with 16% of the population they generate 20% of the GDP. Catalonians are enterprising and innovative, they attract investment and facilitate development more than anywhere else in Spain.

The separatists underestimated the reaction in their own business community, merchants and manufacturers are concerned over the uncertainties, they want stability, rule of law and judicial certitude. The financial services sector which is particularly important in the region, depends on an intensive and interlaced national regulatory system involving deposit guarantees and accounting oversight, all of which would disappear with independence. Other heavily regulated sectors such as chemical and pharmaceutical production are in a similar situation.
 
Thirdly, the Catalan leadership misjudged the international reaction to their independence bid. They had been banking on support from other European Union countries who they hoped would act as intermediaries with Madrid. But while the Catalan separatists have won some popular sympathy internationally following scuffles with police on the day of the referendum and following the jailing of the Catalan leadership, not a single foreign government has recognized Catalonia’s declaration of independence.

Instead, EU governments in particular have lined up behind Madrid in insisting that this is an internal Spanish issue that must be resolved in full respect of the Spanish constitution and the rule of law. In particular, the EU has signaled that an independent Catalonia couldn't count on automatic entry to the EU or membership of the eurozone: for other EU member states, many of which also face separatist threats, this is also an existential issue.
The clear indication neither EU membership nor use of the Euro would be forthcoming to an independent Catalonia was a serious setback inexplicably unanticipated by the regionalists.
Madrid is cautiously optimistic that thanks to these miscalculations, the separatists are losing momentum and that pro-independence parties will fail to win a majority in the Catalan parliament in December’s elections.
Spanish ministers note that the imposition of direct rule and the arrest of the Catalan leadership hasn’t led to widespread disorder as some had predicted. They are also hopeful that the failure of the three pro-independence parties to reach an agreement to form an alliance for the elections as they did in 2015 reflects tactical splits among the separatists.
Madrid is proceeding very meticulously with efforts to reduce separatist doctrine in regional government decisions and the functionariat is cooperating. Today it was reported Madrid drafted training manuals for procedures in the scheduled regional election and that the Catalonian authority in charge of electoral oversight had not been removed, that he confirmed he would abide by the instructions from Madrid.
They also believe that the separatist cause was damaged by the admission by Catalan parliament speaker Carme Forcadell in a bail hearing last week that she regarded the declaration of independence as “symbolic” and would in future agree to respect Spanish law.
I noted this too, Forcadell’s about face was remarkable, almost unbelievable, she was a vociferous advocate of independence, she rallied protesters from the Parlament’s balcony. I think she is trying to deceive the court, to avoid jail.
Madrid believes that even if the three pro-independence parties win a majority of seats in the parliament —which recent polls suggest is possible even though the combined support for pro-independence parties may remain below 50% as it was in 2015— that not all the parties will be willing to continue the current confrontation.
I agree and have described this division among the separatists before. They all agree independence would be wonderful if Catalonia became an EU member and could use the Euro and some differ on what arrangements could be made with Spain to accomplish this, but others want an immediate and complete break, no transition and no concessions, and then they each have their own political ideology for how they’d want to see the region governed. There are at least five separatist factions (PDeCat, Podemos, Junts Pel Si, Esquerra and CUP) and they formed a weak coalition that gave them a majority. This coalition has already broken apart.
The crucial question is what will happen if pro-independence parties do win a majority and opt to continue the confrontation or push ahead with another referendum.

Spanish ministers are reluctant to contemplate such a scenario, but they note that Catalonia will remain under direct rule from Madrid, giving the government full control of Catalan budgets and institutions until a new Catalan leadership is chosen and could be reimposed if at any point that leadership refused to abide by Spanish law.

What’s certain is that Madrid won’t back down in its defense of Spain’s constitution and territorial integrity—indeed, the flags flying from Spanish balconies suggest most Spaniards would expect nothing less. https://www.wsj.com/articles/spain-sees-signs-that-tide-is-turning-in-catalonia-1510524920
I don’t expect the separatists will prevail in the regional election, I expect most people in the region have come to realize there are more people around them who are opposed, they’ve seen the detrimental effect separatism is having on business and it has become evident the different factions that formed the coalition have their own agendas.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The Mossos d'Esquadra were constituted as a militia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossos_d'Esquadra

The Escuadras de Paisanos, later known as the Esquadres de Catalunya, (and informally known as the Mossos d'Esquadra), were men-at-arms who had fought as irregulars in the War of the Spanish Succession, and were brought together by the mayor of the town of Valls near Tarragona between 1719–1721. The corps was constituted as a militia to provide security to trade routes and fairs.

Thank God they don't have the right to bear arms?
I was thinking more along the lines of heavily armed military forces, with all the trimmings like tanks, planes etc.

But I realize having exaggerated anyway, there is little likelihood of any Civil War re-enactment, only resemblance appearing to be that the political pro-independence factions are breaking up just as much now (in absence of armed resistance) as they did when defending the Republic against the Franco rebellion.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

I've seen interviews with Forcadell where, speaking to foreign press, she painted a picture of future tolerance (even after independence) in which all Catalans would accept all those Spaniards in Catalonia that are against secession today.

That makes her either a case of galloping cognitive dissonance in believing all Catalans to be pro independence, while the only opposition comes from non-Catalans living in Catalonia, or she is simply stupid in choice of her wording. Well, both are stupid, come to think of it.

As to her claim of having held the "declaration" to be merely symbolic, I'd also hold her to be now lying in her teeth but with the caveat that people who believe what they say to be true being somewhat different to those that know the truth and intentionally tell its opposite. She probably also held her statements of yesterday to be true, their having been the direct opposite of what she utters today defying everyon'e sense of plausibility but hers.

With the abundance of irrationality we see pervading everybody's actions and lines of reasoning, there's no reason to think she's any different. Then of course there's also legal counsel, consisting as usual of advising denial.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Forcadell is a troublesome element, as I noted previously, she was quite vociferous in her expressions of support for independence, she rallied protesters denouncing anyone not in support for secession as "nazis". I think when she says Catalonians will be tolerant of Spaniards there who don't support independence what she means is not that all Catalonians support independence rather than anyone there who doesn't isn't a Catalonian. There are people who think this way, and Forcadell's literal hatred for Spain is well-documented, there are plenty of videos of her saying as much in different official functions. She will get what she has coming in court (unless she out into exile too).

This hatred of Spain is a problem, but I don't believe it is as widespread as some separatists seem to think. This problem must be addressed because this sort of hard-core irredentism is the premise for violence and terrorism. Spain needs to secure the lawful observance of constitutional provisions, but this can't be through some forceful 'occupation'. There may be a need for constitutional reform, but this won't include provisions to enable the dismemberment of Spain.

We will need to wait until after the regional elections to see how people in the region vote. I expect there will be a reduction in support for separatist parties, surveys show the conservative anti-independence Ciudadanos party has gained the most and the pro-separatist Podemos has lost a lot of support. If these surveys are reflected in the voting I expect about 30% of the electorate would support some effort to improve autonomy and among them there would be die-hard separatists. These people are the ones Madrid will need to convince being part of Spain is a good thing.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Yes, hatred is certainly the first step towards even more dangerous sentiments. I've seen it with some down here (Andalucia) by now directed at Catalans.

But not in any representative figure and then again, purely anecdotal anyway.

Regarding Ciudadanos, I saw Arrimadas handling herself very well when speaking in Parlament.

Where it would be too early to tell, it seems that disillusion is spreading among the secessionist ranks.

I'm no particular friend of Rajoy, more specifically, the die-hard traditionalists that he fronts for. As such I hold the past action of taking to the courts an agreement that after many alterations and adjustments had reached conclusion to the point of actually bearing the royal signature, to have been a totally unnecessary aggravation of sentiments. But despite of all this it would seem that the medicine that Rajoy administered this year was exactly what is needed.

What many outside of Spain don't understand is that the whole fracas is about material issues (Catalonia being robbed) only in part. As much as it is in part only about perceived inequality in other fields on the Catalan side. Of greater weight is the fact that we are witnessing the manifestations of an extreme psychological disorder running rampant among the separatists the way it always has done. Bearing that in mind, there's never been any guarantee of this current conflict not surfacing, even if the 2006 agreement had gone thru completely unchallenged. Just as any accord which may hopefully put this independence thing to rest after Dec-21, will only be a pause.

On the basis of love being one of the greater psychiatric disorders, Catalans (and not solely the vociferous separatists among them) are most drunkenly in love with their sense of being separate to all others by superiority alone. And where the inevitable hangover is now being felt already, hangovers pass. So with the delusion raging that countlessly repeating the same action will result in a different outcome every time, their next round will at best take only a few years before the glass is full again.

Not even transferring the running of overall Spain to them, would stop them from then eventually demanding the Langue d'Oc and Sardinia etc.

That still doesn't make me any friend of Rajoy but then again, in view of the most recently witnessed shenanigans, its taking all my strength to refrain from thinking that maybe Franco had the right idea.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Yes, hatred is certainly the first step towards even more dangerous sentiments. I've seen it with some down here (Andalucia) by now directed at Catalans.

But not in any representative figure and then again, purely anecdotal anyway.

Regarding Ciudadanos, I saw Arrimadas handling herself very well when speaking in Parlament.

Where it would be too early to tell, it seems that disillusion is spreading among the secessionist ranks.

I'm no particular friend of Rajoy, more specifically, the die-hard traditionalists that he fronts for. As such I hold the past action of taking to the courts an agreement that after many alterations and adjustments had reached conclusion to the point of actually bearing the royal signature, to have been a totally unnecessary aggravation of sentiments. But despite of all this it would seem that the medicine that Rajoy administered this year was exactly what is needed.

What many outside of Spain don't understand is that the whole fracas is about material issues (Catalonia being robbed) only in part. As much as it is in part only about perceived inequality in other fields on the Catalan side. Of greater weight is the fact that we are witnessing the manifestations of an extreme psychological disorder running rampant among the separatists the way it always has done. Bearing that in mind, there's never been any guarantee of this current conflict not surfacing, even if the 2006 agreement had gone thru completely unchallenged. Just as any accord which may hopefully put this independence thing to rest after Dec-21, will only be a pause.

On the basis of love being one of the greater psychiatric disorders, Catalans (and not solely the vociferous separatists among them) are most drunkenly in love with their sense of being separate to all others by superiority alone. And where the inevitable hangover is now being felt already, hangovers pass. So with the delusion raging that countlessly repeating the same action will result in a different outcome every time, their next round will at best take only a few years before the glass is full again.

Not even transferring the running of overall Spain to them, would stop them from then eventually demanding the Langue d'Oc and Sardinia etc.

That still doesn't make me any friend of Rajoy but then again, in view of the most recently witnessed shenanigans, its taking all my strength to refrain from thinking that maybe Franco had the right idea.

No, Franco did not have the right idea; he was a very effective dictator is all. The one time they met, he owned Hitler.

Rajoy seems to be in credit so far, possibly more by luck than judgement, because really any one of us could have done better than Puigdemont. Ciudadanos could be poised to pull a kind of a Macron, except with more of an established party and possibly a more consistent political philosophy.

Oh, and don't boycott the Catalan motorway system just yet, because then you'd be missing out on the last service station in Castellon where we had the contract to give the staff English lessons. Guy there summed things up: "If they want independence so much I'll be happy to take my chainsaw to the border and push them out to sea as far as Gomera."
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

No, Franco did not have the right idea; he was a very effective dictator is all. The one time they met, he owned Hitler.
My comment was more tongue-in-cheek, addressing solely his medication for Catalan ravings.;)

Rajoy seems to be in credit so far, possibly more by luck than judgement, because really any one of us could have done better than Puigdemont. Ciudadanos could be poised to pull a kind of a Macron, except with more of an established party and possibly a more consistent political philosophy.
I guess one reason why Rajoy could pull this off at all lies in everybody else in Spain by now being as sick andd tired of Catalonia's shenanigans as they are.

Oh, and don't boycott the Catalan motorway system just yet, because then you'd be missing out on the last service station in Castellon where we had the contract to give the staff English lessons. Guy there summed things up: "If they want independence so much I'll be happy to take my chainsaw to the border and push them out to sea as far as Gomera."
I guess they should have contracted you for geography lessons as well. Because if it's the Canary Island that was meant, I doubt that Catalonia would fit thru the straits.

But then I suppose one could work the way one does with a log that won't fit into the fireplace, chainsaws can be applied repeatedly.:lol:
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Well, squeezed between the straits it might (rather fittingly) end up looking like the product of that typical Catalan nativity figure the 'caganer', which I shall refrain from posting an image of.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Well, squeezed between the straits it might (rather fittingly) end up looking like the product of that typical Catalan nativity figure the 'caganer', which I shall refrain from posting an image of.
Found one looking exactly like Puigdemont, but won't post that either.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Oh dear. If you're going to release a photo of your 'government' with your former business minister photoshopped out, maybe a good idea to take his legs out of the photo too:

El "Govern legítim" de Puigdemont olvida borrar pierna de Santi Vila
That's funny, but yes, they removed Vila because he's now ostracised among separatists for resigning before the declaration of independence. Puigdemont's creation of this "legitimate" regional government reminds me of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador in Mexico who, when he lost to Felipe Calderon, constituted himself as the "legitimate" president.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

As expected the Supreme Court will consolidate all of the cases, I expect this will lead to the release (on probation) of the incarcerated former consellers.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

This really is about proportionality, it involves the magnificence of sovereignty and the depth of cultural identity. Unitedstatians (people from the US translated from Spanish) know what sovereignty means, but they don’t have “cultural identity”. It takes many more centuries than the US has existed for cultural identity to develop. There are the vague outlines of what will probably become its cultural identity in a few more centuries; a very mobile, transplanted population which arrived with different cultural identities.

Cultural identity ultimately relates an individual to specific geography, this is a key element. Architecture, costumes, diet, sports, music, and other elements that are part of an individual’s cultural identity and make him part of a community he shares these with, are all tied to the land where he lives. Since the US is inhabited by a transplanted very mobile population who rarely live and die where they were born, acquiring cultural identity is difficult.

One must look for commonalities shared by all Unitedstatians across the whole nation, there’s English, Protestantism, the cowboy hat, Thanksgiving, baseball, American Football, basketball, peanut butter and Boston baked beans, these may eventually become cultural identity in a few centuries.

Catalonia has its own cultural identity, much older, their own language, arts, literature, architecture, engineering, sports… These are particularly enterprising people which have excelled in the printing, textile, pharmaceutical and trade sectors, we study their development of trade laws in the Libro del Consulado del Mar learned discursions on trade and law, insurance and regulations across the Mediterranean after the collapse of the Roman Empire are significant and the foundations for international trade today.
In the late 8th century [8 centuries before the US], the counties of the March of Gothia and the Hispanic March were established by the Frankish kingdom as feudal vassals across and near the eastern Pyrenees as a defensive barrier against Muslim invasions. The eastern counties of these marches were united under the rule of the Frankish vassal, the count of Barcelona, and were later called Catalonia. In 1137, Catalonia and the Kingdom of Aragon were united by marriage under the Crown of Aragon, and the Principality of Catalonia became the base for the Crown of Aragon's naval power and expansionism in the Mediterranean. In the later Middle Ages, Catalan literature flourished. Between 1469 and 1516, the king of Aragon and the queen of Castile married and ruled their kingdoms together, retaining all their distinct institutions, courts (parliament), and constitutions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia
So you’ve got cultural identity in a region with distinct differences. Their own language (a dialect), literature, dietary preferences, regional dress, sports…

Sovereignty, the capacity to relate to others as an equal with complete power and authority is what Catalonia had under the Count of Barcelona until the region was united to Aragon and subsequently to Castille. This process of consolidation took place all across Europe as feudal fiefdoms clashed and interacted, lords and warriors sized each other up, confronted, were beaten or conquered and submitted until they learned to respect boundaries, to trade and abide by laws rather than impose their rule by force.

So Catalonians can look back, like many others across Europe and elsewhere, to a time when they were recognized as sovereign equals to other peoples who also gradually were consolidated into other nation-states, all with an approximately equal capacity to impose rule by force and a preference to respect boundaries abiding by law.

Now then Spain, a nation integrated by joining a variety of regions (including Catalonia) in 1492, had the size and military capacity to be treated as an equal by France, Portugal, Britain and others around it. As a sovereign Spain (with Catalonia) went out and conquered, built an empire in America, fought, looted, converted and imposed its will. Spain sent ambassadors (some of them Catalonians) to foreign kingdoms, they negotiated treaties and did deals in Japan or the US.

Spain (with Catalonia) is a full-fledged member of the European Union, it is in the United Nations, contributes significantly to the ICRC and with distinction in numerous IGOs and NGOs, Spain (and Catalonia) has troops in Afghanistan, peacekeepers around the world, this is a ‘serious’ nation with capacity (we have two aircraft carriers and a space tracking station). Spain (with Catalonia) definitely punches above its weight in international relations.

Catalonians look back at their history and see more than half a millennia ago they were sovereigns, equal to Spain which now imposes its constitution upon them (with the EU, UN and assorted sovereigns approval). Some think this is outrageous, they are mistaken, it is evolution.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

According to a recent poll the Catalonian government to emerge from the regional elections in less than 4 weeks will be split evenly between separatists and constutionalists with each side garnering 46% of the vote (in 2015 the separatists had 47.7% and the three constitutionalist parties added up to 39.1%)

The survey, conducted between November 20 and 22, once it was established there would be three separate separatist lists of candidates rather than a single list as had been proposed (as was the case in 2015). The survey also indicates a high turnout (around 80%) which would be the highest in Catalonia’s regional elections. Undecideds are 23% and mostly women over 65 living in Barcelona.

According to the survey, separatists would get 67 seats, just one short of an absolute majority (they had 72 seats in the former government). Esquerra would be the party with most votes (26.5% and 39 delegates), the former president’s party would get 13.6% of the vote (21 seats) and the radical CUP would have 5.9% of the vote.

If this survey was confirmed it would be impossible to select a separatist president without the support of at least some constitutionalists. It is not clear whether the former consellers in jail or exile will be allowed to vote. https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/11/25/actualidad/1511631782_154630.html
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Sour Grapes:
In a highly critical statement against the EU due to its reaction during the crisis over Catalonian independence, the former president of the Generalitat, Carles Puigdemont, indicated the people of Catalonia need to make their own decisions on remaining part of the EU which he described as “a club of decadent, obsolescent nations ruled by a few and tied to increasingly questionable financial interests.”

“Catalonians will decide if they want to belong to this EU and under what conditions. We will see what the people of Catalonia have to say about this” Puigdemont said in an interview on Israeli public TV. Independencia de Cataluña: Puigdemont ve la UE como un "club de países decadentes" y plantea que Cataluña vote su salida | EL MUNDO
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

I think the Economic Minister is right, that after the regional election most of the businesses that changed their fiscal address will return, Catalonia is an attractive business location, this is why it is more economically powerful than other regions. Additionally, some information relating to the former regional government's proposed fiscal policy for a Catalonian Republic has revealed not as business-friendly plans. Major businesses in the region now realize they need to be more careful in dealing with political figures, they didn't realize the strength of separatism and it evidently would be quite detrimental to their continued prosperity, particularly if the region was out of the EU and couldn't use the Euro. This is strange because one would expect this region to have a government that coordinated well with the business community, but not these separatists.

Apparently the former regional government didn't have a clear plan on how to proceed beyond declaring independence. Madrid has gathered up plenty of documentation relating to the former government, but they found nothing detailing any intent to negotiate anything with Madrid and this would have been an obvious requirement if the region was to remain in the EU. There's no record of any arrangements to apportion Spain's public debt, which one would expect could be a bargaining chip. There was a reference to mandatory military conscription and that it would be immediate and muster 20,000 men. Nothing on assuming air traffic control, or even international border controls (I guess they figured they'd be in the EU).

The cost of deploying a credible military force, coast guard, navy and air force, plus replacing all the Spanish police which normally serve there, plus numerous national institutions and infrastructure, railways, roads, harbours and airports, would be hard to cover with their current taxes. They would need close cooperation with Spanish fiscal authorities to gain necessary information of their own taxpayers, healthcare and education records would need to be shared as well. The financial sector has already reviewed some estimates and found it would be a very expensive proposition and particularly difficult to finance with low ratings Catalonian bonds already have.

This was a pipe dream, not carefully planned at all, a political ploy to distract from the mess they'd made, they got carried away by dreams of sovereignty and misunderstood the support some Catalans have for their region. They didn't consider the substantial non-Catalan population or the intense ties and connections the region has with the rest of Spain (80% of their business is with Spain).
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Sour Grapes:
I'd propose that he's now lost it completely, were it not for the fact that he never had IT to start with.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Political parties are discussing whether their candidates should agree debating Puigdemont via TV monitors and how this would affect their candidacies. Conservative Ciudadanos and separatist Catalunya en Comun accept the proposition, the socialist PSC and conservative PP reject the idea, others worry this will highlight or handicap him, that errors and misstatements by candidates will be overlooked due to the unusual participation of Puigdemont: Elecciones Catalanas: El plasma de Puigdemont pone en jaque los debates | EL MUNDO
 
The Spanish Government is moving to seize the electronic media infrastructure which Catlans are using to hold and count their intended referendum vote tomorrow. Spanish authorities are also set to seize public schools and keep them sealed and closed, schools which are under local Catlan jurisdiction, where the voting will take place. Catlan families with children are moving into these schools to pre-empt Spanish authorities from closing the schools. The Spanish government has threatened Catlan organisers and referendum volunteers with astronomical fines and jail time if they participate in the running of the referendum. Finally Spain is preparing to use force if the Catlan population comes out into the streets tomorrow.

Is this a wise course to thwart Catlan nationalism or will it only force such nationalists to operate under-ground? Further will such overt suppression radicalise Catlan separatists, creating a new long-term security problem for Spain not unlike the traditional Basque insurgency? Negotiation or confrontation, which is the wisest strategy?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
I didn't think the average forum O and Hill hater could find Spain on a map
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Political parties are discussing whether their candidates should agree debating Puigdemont via TV monitors and how this would affect their candidacies. Conservative Ciudadanos and separatist Catalunya en Comun accept the proposition, the socialist PSC and conservative PP reject the idea, others worry this will highlight or handicap him, that errors and misstatements by candidates will be overlooked due to the unusual participation of Puigdemont: Elecciones Catalanas: El plasma de Puigdemont pone en jaque los debates | EL MUNDO
Surreal.

Even considering that he hasn't been officially charged (let alone sentenced) on account of having scarpered in time, agreeing to debate via TV someone who still remains a fugitive from justice, should really land some people with a sound spanking.

Sensitivities on the one hand and political calculations on the other be damned.
 
I didn't think the average forum O and Hill hater could find Spain on a map

YorkshirePete:

Sorry, I'm at a loss to follow what you mean. "O and Hill hater"? O = Obama perchance? I don't hate Obama if that's your implication. I rather liked his two terms work for the most part, actually. I do not understand your reference here. Is this some sort of Geordie code, because I'm not getting your point. A reference to Reginald Hill perhaps? Try Westcountry or Cornish idioms if you want to be regional. I might understand those. Now, get off my land!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
"O and Hill haters" must be code for what Hillary called "deplorables", which are portrayed as retrograde Neanderthals from the hinterlands who are mostly illiterate and otherwise intellectually handicapped, such people couldn't be expected to find Spain (let alone Catalonia) on a map. Only urban-dwelling, well-educated liberal cosmopolitan elites know about the disenfranchised minorities struggling for self-determination anywhere.
 
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