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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

^^ Since Catalan separatism is predicated on a giant martyrdom complex, a protagonistic buffoon like Puigdemont probably dreams of doing a Nelson Mandela in reverse.
....which raises the interesting question of where one might find the Spanish equivalent of Robben Island.

Perhaps Insula Perejil............
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

....which raises the interesting question of where one might find the Spanish equivalent of Robben Island.

Perhaps Insula Perejil............

Since Peniscola was home for a while to a schismatic Pope, I nominate the 'Bufador del Papa Luna'

IMG_1574.jpg
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

....which raises the interesting question of where one might find the Spanish equivalent of Robben Island.

Perhaps Insula Perejil............

Chaos et al:

El Hierro in the Canaries? In Insula Perejil he might just decide to foment Moroccan land claims just to keep in practice for his eventual triumphant return to Catalunya! This is a vocation for him and no prison sentence will likely deter him. Jailing him will just feed into his political martyrdom and make him more popular among those committed to the fragmentation of a unitary Spanish state. You're just going to have to learn to live with him and his ilk, jumping in the puddles of the political waters and soiling the nice clothes of Catalunya/Spain/Europe.

What would Spain do if in response to the imposition/assertion of direct rule and the call for new elections, Catalan separatists won a substantial electoral victory? Then would Spain negotiate with the separatists or would it continue to dissolve Catalan parliaments serially, until it got the result it prefers?

Is more serious Catalan resistance (political, economic, tax revolts, and direct action) in the cards if Spain is too heavy handed?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Since Peniscola was home for a while to a schismatic Pope, I nominate the 'Bufador del Papa Luna'

IMG_1574.jpg
Lawd no, that'll bestow sainthood.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Chaos et al:

El Hierro in the Canaries? In Insula Perejil he might just decide to foment Moroccan land claims just to keep in practice for his eventual triumphant return to Catalunya! This is a vocation for him and no prison sentence will likely deter him. Jailing him will just feed into his political martyrdom and make him more popular among those committed to the fragmentation of a unitary Spanish state. You're just going to have to learn to live with him and his ilk, jumping in the puddles of the political waters and soiling the nice clothes of Catalunya/Spain/Europe.

What would Spain do if in response to the imposition/assertion of direct rule and the call for new elections, Catalan separatists won a substantial electoral victory? Then would Spain negotiate with the separatists or would it continue to dissolve Catalan parliaments serially, until it got the result it prefers?

Is more serious Catalan resistance (political, economic, tax revolts, and direct action) in the cards if Spain is too heavy handed?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
The martyrdom angle is very pertinent, Catalans thrive on martyrdom, even those that oppose separation. Sometimes reminding me (but only in that aspect) of nationalist Serbs who celebrate their resounding defeat on the Blackbird field (Kosovo) against the Ottomans, to the point of making it the founding myth of their nation and celebrating the anniversary each year.

Now how nuts is that?

As to your question, a substantial victory is not likely even where the margin may well be thinner (but more in favour of the separatists than it currently is). That doesn't mean however that any unilateral declaration of independence would ever find acceptance by the Spanish state.

What is recognized though (even if not so much by the mule-heads in Rajoy's gang) is that the current autonomy status, as favourable as it is, requires re-adjustment.

And not just for Catalonia either.

But with regard to any negotiations on that issue, Puigdemont cannot be the negotiating partner if he gets it into his mind to declare independence any time between now and Thursday, respectively Friday. He'd be toast.

I also refer back to Artur Mas who was prosecuted and convicted, subsequently fined and barred from holding political office for the period of two years.

The Catalan reaction (certainly on the part of his supporters) was not open rebellion, but rather masochistic wallowing in self pity, perceived injustice, orgasmic martyrdom and the feeling of moral superiority that could be derived from all of those.

Catalan psyche (at least in large parts) thrives on all of that as a means of identity and were Catalonia ever to gain independence, those described here would wither on the vine like rotting grapes. They'd have to define themselves completely anew by actually being pro something instead of resting in the comfort zone of victimhood.

It's simply not primarily about the money, it's about emotion.

All of which is pretty broad brush, I'd agree, but there's much smoke there indicating at least some fire.

And yes, we have to live with it all but seeing how we've been doing nothing else for decades, that won't really pose a problem.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

If you were more informed on Spanish history as you appear to be, you'd know that not even Franco was a fascist in the true definition of the term.

In an absolutely true definition of the word, no, but neither was stalin lenin mao etc true comunists going by the strict definition of the word.

Franco ran the only fascist country post ww2(well there might be more but no one can remember them due to being very short lived or extremely tiny countries) the spanish constitution was written by a member of his party, and much of the govt after he died was of his supporters and former party. Over time I thought they normalized and became like the rest of the civilized world, instead I saw them bring back the fascist tactics of the past, and videos of people doing the fascist salute in the streets and holding banners of franco, almost like the country never stopped being fascist, but rather just pretended to stop.


The only thing madrid did was fuel the fire, as basque and barcelona have wanted independance as well, and from a position of power a civil war is the easiest way to consolidate a dictatorship, using the chaos to ensure sweeping reforms granting govt near unlimited power under the guise of safety and rule of law.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Eh? Both sides of this debate are pro-European Union.

Also, Spain is united against the independence movement. PSOE, who are anti-fascist socialists and the Catalan Ciudadanos are backing the government.

And if anyone is "Fascist", it has to be the political party that goes against the rule of law for its own personal purposes and makes up **** to justify its actions. ... that is the independence movement.

Spain is not very united, besides catalonia, bosque and barcelona have wanted independence as well, that is a very sizable cunk of the country wanting to split off. And yes all sides seem to be pro european union, however the secessionist sides want to join the eu under their own country, while the eu is against them leaving as they want spain intact.

Also I never mentioned racist, racism is not a required part of fascism, though it can be integrated into it, much like nazi germany did. Fascism in very basic terms is nationalism combined with dictator style power or atleast a very strong handed govt and controlling business production religion etc for the benefit of the state, however fascism can exist through multiple races without racism, as fascism in general puts the state and the collective above individuals, which unless race is injected into it like the nazis did would actually render race irrelevant to class structure, which fascists viewed a tiered class system as a benefit to the state and collective.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.

If your father's father made a binding agreement for your family for x, y, z is it ethical to have you held to it, despite you being your own person? Countries are created and changed all the time. There are many countries in Europe that weren't there until relatively recently. To say that everything is static and that a populous cannot determine their own fates is not only unethical but divorced from reality.

The whole Catalan independence movement is pretty much flawed. Polls show that most Catalans are against it,

If so then what's the fear? As it stands, the only actual voting that has taken place showed a significant preference for independence.
 
The Spanish Government is moving to seize the electronic media infrastructure which Catlans are using to hold and count their intended referendum vote tomorrow. Spanish authorities are also set to seize public schools and keep them sealed and closed, schools which are under local Catlan jurisdiction, where the voting will take place. Catlan families with children are moving into these schools to pre-empt Spanish authorities from closing the schools. The Spanish government has threatened Catlan organisers and referendum volunteers with astronomical fines and jail time if they participate in the running of the referendum. Finally Spain is preparing to use force if the Catlan population comes out into the streets tomorrow.

Is this a wise course to thwart Catlan nationalism or will it only force such nationalists to operate under-ground? Further will such overt suppression radicalise Catlan separatists, creating a new long-term security problem for Spain not unlike the traditional Basque insurgency? Negotiation or confrontation, which is the wisest strategy?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

I don't have an answer to this as I see two totally legitimate positions:

1. The Catalans are their own people that should not be eternally bound to what previous generations agreed to. It is unethical to hold someone against their will, whether it is an individual or a people group.

2. A country, or any entity really, has to maintain it's integrity. So a country cannot just let people leave with such a simple procedure and hope to maintain it's existence.

All I know is that the EU is showing how truly thuggish they are and continually demonstrate that they are an institution that is heading in the wrong direction and needs to be dismantled and reformed back to being a simple monetary and free movement zone.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

If your father's father made a binding agreement for your family for x, y, z is it ethical to have you held to it, despite you being your own person? Countries are created and changed all the time. There are many countries in Europe that weren't there until relatively recently. To say that everything is static and that a populous cannot determine their own fates is not only unethical but divorced from reality.



If so then what's the fear? As it stands, the only actual voting that has taken place showed a significant preference for independence.

Does what you're saying about your grandfather's agreements say something about the relevance of the US constitution? Is your country still bound to words said 250 years ago?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Does what you're saying about your grandfather's agreements say something about the relevance of the US constitution? Is your country still bound to words said 250 years ago?

It does, and nothing is stopping voting from happening to utterly and dynamically change said Constitution to be something completely the opposite from what the founders created. They never meant for it to never change and specifically built mechanisms for said change.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

If so then what's the fear? As it stands, the only actual voting that has taken place showed a significant preference for independence.

What fear? There is no provision in the Spanish constitution or law for a referendum of such kind. And if you were such an advocate on voting, then explain why Trump is in office? 3 million more people voted for the other girl.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Spain is not very united, besides catalonia, bosque and barcelona have wanted independence as well, that is a very sizable cunk of the country wanting to split off. And yes all sides seem to be pro european union, however the secessionist sides want to join the eu under their own country, while the eu is against them leaving as they want spain intact.

Also I never mentioned racist, racism is not a required part of fascism, though it can be integrated into it, much like nazi germany did. Fascism in very basic terms is nationalism combined with dictator style power or atleast a very strong handed govt and controlling business production religion etc for the benefit of the state, however fascism can exist through multiple races without racism, as fascism in general puts the state and the collective above individuals, which unless race is injected into it like the nazis did would actually render race irrelevant to class structure, which fascists viewed a tiered class system as a benefit to the state and collective.

Just not factually true. A small portion in some regions want independence... that is no different than in any other country. A small portion of Texas, California and so on, all want independence. Hell in my own country, we have small insignificant and stupid independence movements on islands and historical geographical areas. UK has independence movements in Northern Ireland, Scotland, but even internally in England. It is nothing new, and do you also claim that those countries are unstable?
 
I don't have an answer to this as I see two totally legitimate positions:

1. The Catalans are their own people that should not be eternally bound to what previous generations agreed to. It is unethical to hold someone against their will, whether it is an individual or a people group.

Historically not true. And if people are not eternally bound to what previous generations agreed too, then society as a whole is illegal. That means that people of Georgia can put slavery back because they are not bound by the constitution or the agreements of the last generations.

All I know is that the EU is showing how truly thuggish they are and continually demonstrate that they are an institution that is heading in the wrong direction and needs to be dismantled and reformed back to being a simple monetary and free movement zone.

Wait what? The EU is not involved in this LOL.. seriously, you just showed that you know NOTHING of what is going on.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

What fear? There is no provision in the Spanish constitution or law for a referendum of such kind. And if you were such an advocate on voting, then explain why Trump is in office? 3 million more people voted for the other girl.

Do you REALLY need someone to explain the merit of the electoral college to you? Do you truly not understand why our Founders chose not to allow highly populated metropolises to impose their will on the greater portion of the nation?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

It does, and nothing is stopping voting from happening to utterly and dynamically change said Constitution to be something completely the opposite from what the founders created. They never meant for it to never change and specifically built mechanisms for said change.

So what if the overwhelming majority of the US population wanted to abolish the 2nd amendment?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

In an absolutely true definition of the word, no, but neither was stalin lenin mao etc true comunists going by the strict definition of the word.

Franco ran the only fascist country post ww2(well there might be more but no one can remember them due to being very short lived or extremely tiny countries) the spanish constitution was written by a member of his party, and much of the govt after he died was of his supporters and former party. Over time I thought they normalized and became like the rest of the civilized world, instead I saw them bring back the fascist tactics of the past, and videos of people doing the fascist salute in the streets and holding banners of franco, almost like the country never stopped being fascist, but rather just pretended to stop.


The only thing madrid did was fuel the fire, as basque and barcelona have wanted independance as well, and from a position of power a civil war is the easiest way to consolidate a dictatorship, using the chaos to ensure sweeping reforms granting govt near unlimited power under the guise of safety and rule of law.
Where all this might merit a passage by passage response, I can see that you have no idea of today's post 1975 Spain at all.

Alone your statement of the constitution being written by one person and that person ever having been a member of the Franco regime, let alone your claim of Spain having mostly been run by Francoists since 1975 smacks of such ignorance that it really merits no further consideration.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Do you REALLY need someone to explain the merit of the electoral college to you? Do you truly not understand why our Founders chose not to allow highly populated metropolises to impose their will on the greater portion of the nation?

There are no merits of the electoral college.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

There are no merits of the electoral college.

It has to be said that until Trump's victory the number of column inches devoted to the unfairness of the electoral college was pretty minimal, even when there were much closer elections.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

It has to be said that until Trump's victory the number of column inches devoted to the unfairness of the electoral college was pretty minimal, even when there were much closer elections.

LOL no... The outcry was the same when Bush won.

Listen keep the electoral college, but make sure that the damn thing gives the same result as a the popular vote. Else it is a minority dictatorship.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

They did. Then the court system ordered the police to seize ballots and ballot boxes. Its funny how you as a conservative is suddenly against the rule of law.

Seizing the voting material is the problem. It is repression pure and simple and totally unnecessary. If the Spanish government didn't want to recognize the vote all they had to do is announce that there would be no legal consequences for people who want to cheat in the voting.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

LOL no... The outcry was the same when Bush won.

Listen keep the electoral college, but make sure that the damn thing gives the same result as a the popular vote. Else it is a minority dictatorship.

The vast majority of the time the Electoral College does have the same result. Actually the Electoral College did its job in 2000 and 2016. Among other things it prevents the exploitation of rural areas by the population centers. There's no reason for New York and Los Angeles to be able to ignore the will of much of the rest of the country.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Seizing the voting material is the problem.

It was the Catalan courts that ordered it.

It is repression pure and simple and totally unnecessary.

Again, the court system ordered it as the government did not follow the ruling of the courts.

If the Spanish government didn't want to recognize the vote all they had to do is announce that there would be no legal consequences for people who want to cheat in the voting

Again, they Spanish government clearly said long before that it would not recognize the vote.

This was a legal issue long before we got to vote day. The Catalan government was breaking Spanish and Catalan law when they went ahead with the referendum. So the court system put down an injunction that is enforceable by the police.

Lets see if we can put it in your world.

A company is about to release a product that illegal. They ignore the regulators, and courts... what will happen if the company releases the product despite the legal rulings against it, and injunctions?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The vast majority of the time the Electoral College does have the same result. Actually the Electoral College did its job in 2000 and 2016. Among other things it prevents the exploitation of rural areas by the population centers.

More right wing bull**** defending an archaic outdated flaws system.

There's no reason for New York and Los Angeles to be able to ignore the will of much of the rest of the country.

But it is fine for the rest of the country (a minority of people) to ignore the will of the New York and LA and other major population centers?
 
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