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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra said:
Spain's new socialist government isn't going to be any more accommodating to Catalonian secessionists.

Evidently the new government in Madrid is no more inclined to dismemberment than its predecessor, and while this doesn't surprise me, I can appreciate the discomfiture on the left which may have thought socialists would be more sensitive than conservatives to supposedly democratic aspirations.

The new foreign minister, a Catalonian, in his first statements upon assuming office has emphasized two transcendental points; he sees the separatist movement as the "gravest" threat and he will work in support of rather than in opposition to the EU.
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Let's be clear here. Much of the whole independence movement in Catalonia was because of PP being in power. Now they are out of power and the independence movement will die down somewhat.

The issue has always been the fact that PP are a party linked to Franco. The hatred towards Franco and anyone linked to him in places like Catalonia is big.


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The PP is associated with Franco just because it is a conservative party, no doubt there are some in the PP who sympathize with the concepts of law and order under the regime, but it has embraced democratic forms, the PP does not aspire to restore a military dictatorship in Spain.
 
Plus Ultra said:
The PP is associated with Franco just because it is a conservative party, no doubt there are some in the PP who sympathize with the concepts of law and order under the regime, but it has embraced democratic forms, the PP does not aspire to restore a military dictatorship in Spain.
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PP founder was a Franco minister and ambassador for Franco.... when democracy came and the Franco party was dissolved, an electoral coalition on the right was created called AP. It was made up of right wingers aka Franco people. Eventually the PP party was founded based on this coalition and it waste Manuel Farga a former Franco minister, who was the force behind this.

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I wouldn't characterize things that way, Fraga was a technocrat, not an ideologue, as was practically everyone in Franco's government from the early sixties onward. Critics of the regime are quick to highlight whatever analogies between Franco and Hitler or Mussolini (there really aren't many). While immediately after assuming control Franco and his movement (the falangistas) were quite ideological, with the passage of time this gradually gave way to more practical concerns developing the country and improving the lot of all Spaniards. By the time Fraga got into politics, Franco was much more concerned with developing the economy, industrial sectors and promoting tourism, this was the "era del seiscientos", when Spain won Eurovision. When Franco died Fraga was one of his ministers in the transitional government which threaded through a process towards democracy co-opting "revolutionary" communists and socialists with great ambitions while calming down military irrendentists overly concerned with the welfare of the nation. Fraga founded "Reforma Democratica" (Democratic Reform) a political party that lasted only about a year from which then emerged "Alianza Popular", Spain's democratic conservative party. Franco fans were not engaged by such efforts, they were associated with 'movements' like the "Falange" and "Fuerza Nueva", not with political parties, even if they were conservative like Fraga's. Years later Alianza Popular dissolved and conservatives formed the current "Partido Popular", to attribute to this party a fascist mentality because a technocrat during Franco's tenure was involved seems a weak premise.
 
Today's El Pais reports that Miquel Iceta, Catalonian socialist party leader, noted today that dialogue between the regional government and Madrid will only be beneficial if both sides recognize each other as valid interlocutors and confine themselves eithin the bounds of the law. Iceta said he had not asked the new regional presient to explicitly renounce anything, but did say he finds the unilateral and illegal route as over. “In politics mistakes may be made, but it is not good to repeat them. Unilateralism failed in the previous regional legislature as it was too costly and had no effect, this was a big mistake” he said.

The new regional president, Joaquim Torra opened a round of consultations with parties in the Generalitat, opposition leader Ines Arrimadas declined the invitation, Iceta was the next up. The meeting was described as “cordial” and neither side made reference to what remains an intractable difference.
 
Constitutional reform:
An urgent reform of the Spanish constitution was needed, the new Minister of Regional Administration Meritxell Batet said on Saturday, in allusion to a long-running political conflict between the central government and the region of Catalonia. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...nt-constitutional-change-needed-idUSKCN1J50KO
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Batet was born in Barcelona.
The Socialists hold just 84 of the 350 seats in parliament and would need a two-thirds majority to pass any constitutional reform, giving the conservative People’s Party (PP), who have balked at reform in the past, veto power over any bill.

“The territorial pact from the ‘78 constitution is in crisis, nobody can deny it,” Batet said in a public appearance as minister in Barcelona.

On Friday, the Socialists lifted financial controls on Catalonia and said they would seek dialogue with the region’s administration to relieve tensions over the independence bid.

A constitutional reform is “urgent, viable and desirable” Batet said, adding she wanted to create a parliamentary commission, originally proposed by the Socialists last year, to investigate how it might be done.
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I agree constitutional reform is needed and I think the regional administration is the primary issue requiring reconsideration. Some have suggested a more federal system, but I suspect this would be more advantageous for other regions (Catalonia has just 4 provinces) while Andalusia, Castille Leon and Castille La Mancha are all larger, though only Andalusia has a greater population.

I suspect a more satisfactory allocation of power for Catalonia would have to reflect economic performance. It is unclear what effect the separatist crisis has had on this region’s economy, no doubt it is negative, but we don’t know how bad. Two years ago Catalonia was the most important region of Spain based on economic performance, however per capita income in the single district of the region of Madrid, the Basque Country and Navarre is higher.

It will be interesting to see how Spain can amend its constitution to take into account economic performance.

I certainly don’t expect any reform will provide for a regional right to secede.
 
Puigdemont can now be turned over to Spain (upper court of German federal state Schleswig-Holstein decides).

But:


only for the charge of misappropriation of public funds, not for rebellion. Which means that prosecution in Spain on the rebellion charge would be invalid, respectively void extradition.
 
Chagos said:
Puigdemont can now be turned over to Spain (upper court of German federal state Schleswig-Holstein decides).

But:


only for the charge of misappropriation of public funds, not for rebellion. Which means that prosecution in Spain on the rebellion charge would be invalid, respectively void extradition.
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Would have happened any ways.. easier to prove misappropriation of public funds than rebellion. Plus now that the PP are out of power, the independence movement has become more "peaceful" and willing to discuss terms.
 
PeteEU said:
Would have happened any ways.. easier to prove misappropriation of public funds than rebellion. Plus now that the PP are out of power, the independence movement has become more "peaceful" and willing to discuss terms.
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As with Belgium (and most others) it's kind of a reciprocity thing. IOW what is a crime in one country needs to be the same in the other.

Declaring independence (unilaterally) in Germany is at best (or worst) seen as silly and silliness is not punishable. One would need to take up arms in the process as well to make it prosecutable and the last time that happened in Germany was in Munich in 1923.

Where the Spanish judiciary wouldn't have made the rebellion charge stick anyway, not even by Spanish law, it needs to drop the whole thing totally now or they won't get Germany to hand Muppetface over.
 
PeteEU said:
Would have happened any ways.. easier to prove misappropriation of public funds than rebellion. Plus now that the PP are out of power, the independence movement has become more "peaceful" and willing to discuss terms.
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Indeed, things seem to be getting back on track. Torra (the new regional president) threatened to draft a constitution for independent Catalonia, but his acceptance of the Spanish court's sentence disqualifying Puigdemont and some other exiled conseller has earned him enmity from Esquerra (half his governing coalition). The radical CUP and ANC are up in arms as the irrendentists demand nothing other than a full fledged revolution for independence.

The change in the national government has reduced the confrontation, perhaps because the socialists seem less of an enemy than the ostensibly fascist PP, but the socialists are just as determined to deny independence and in fact they saw their support grow precisely because they endorsed PP's response to the independence movement.

In October things should heat up as the courts will have wound their way through all this investigating of the role played by regional government institutions in the outlawed referendum, apparently there is plenty of evidence of this, regional census figures, tax data and tax resources were used despite the judicial determination they could not be.
 
The decision on Puigdemont’s extradition by the German court of Schleswig-Holstein (to extradite only for the misappropriation charge) leaves Spanish judge Llarena three options; accept the extradition and only prosecute for misappropriation, reject the conditional extradition, or appeal the German court’s decision to the EU’s Court of Justice on the grounds Germany misapplied the EU’s extradition procedure.

Llarena is disinclined to dismiss the rebellion charges, so will probably reject the conditional extradition, but the Spanish court is reviewing the determination as it remains to be confirmed Germany will absolutely not surrender Puigdemont to face rebellion charges in Spain. Accepting the conditional extradition leaves open the possibility Puigdemont could be found not guilty of the misappropriation charge (they haven’t gone through the evidence yet) and consequently could even be reinstated.

Llarena still needs to review the legal basis for the German court’s decision to determine whether there are grounds to appeal in Germany or to the EU’s court and weigh the possibility it may be preferable to in effect condemn Puigdemont to exile as the Spanish order for his arrest should he ever return to Spain would remain in effect. (from El Pais in my translation) https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/07/12/actualidad/1531413396_548141.html
 
"El Mundo", usually well-informed, reports that the Supreme court of Spain is considering turning down the extradition altogether.

There's nothing from official sources though.

This article peruses different avenues quite well.
 
Well, Spain has scrapped the European arrest order on whatshisname.

Wise.

The Spanish arrest orders remain in place on the national level. For him and 5 of his cronies.
 
Chagos said:
Well, Spain has scrapped the European arrest order on whatshisname.

Wise.

The Spanish arrest orders remain in place on the national level. For him and 5 of his cronies.
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The scrapped the arrest warren on rebellion charges no? The abuse of public funds is still valid I think..

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PeteEU said:
The scrapped the arrest warren on rebellion charges no?
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not to my knowledge and I don't really see how (why) they would. As far, that is, as the national arrest warrants are concerned.

Whether they could make any rebellion charge stick in a Spanish court would remain to be seen.
The abuse of public funds is still valid I think
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Yes.
 
Evilroddy said:
Gonzo Rodeo:

Many Catalans who oppose the referendum refuse to participate in it. This means the 40-45% of the Catalan population who support the separatist cause may get a majority of the votes actually cast in this referendum since most of the opposition will not participate. By boycotting the referendum Catalans who oppose it increase its odds for success. The irony of politics is breathtaking.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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And as we approach the anniversary of the 'Catalan referendum' the irony has not ceased giving.

Weight attached to result by deluded Catalan Catalans: huge. F*cks given by Rest of the World: zip.
 
Sven Karma said:
And as we approach the anniversary of the 'Catalan referendum' the irony has not ceased giving.

Weight attached to result by deluded Catalan Catalans: huge. F*cks given by Rest of the World: zip.
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Me by now included.

Where the separatists clamber bravely from one (ever decreasing and more and more rare) rally to another, international coverage has indeed gone to virtually zero. Heck, not even the local TV down here gives it much of a mention.
 
Sven Karma said:
And as we approach the anniversary of the 'Catalan referendum' the irony has not ceased giving.

Weight attached to result by deluded Catalan Catalans: huge. F*cks given by Rest of the World: zip.
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Sven Karma:

Separatism is a matter of the heart far more than the mind and this passion makes such movements enduring and cyclical. Europe may not be impressed but the Catalan nationalist powder-keg is sitting amidst glowing embers of nationalist/separatist passions just waiting for the next opportunity or perceived slight/humiliation to reawaken into full-blown flame again. This separatism movement will not go away no matter what either Brussels or Madrid do to try to diffuse or suppress it. Like Québécois nationalism/separatism here in Canada, it will never go away or be satisfied until separation is achieved. It will wax and wane while imposing continuous economic and political costs on the parent country. The Norwegian model in separating from Sweden is foremost in separatist minds.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Evilroddy said:
Sven Karma:

Separatism is a matter of the heart far more than the mind and this passion makes such movements enduring and cyclical. Europe may not be impressed but the Catalan nationalist powder-keg is sitting amidst glowing embers of nationalist/separatist passions just waiting for the next opportunity or perceived slight/humiliation to reawaken into full-blown flame again. This separatism movement will not go away no matter what either Brussels or Madrid do to try to diffuse or suppress it. Like Québécois nationalism/separatism here in Canada, it will never go away or be satisfied until separation is achieved. It will wax and wane while imposing continuous economic and political costs on the parent country. The Norwegian model in separating from Sweden is foremost in separatist minds.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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What you seem to be overlooking is that Catalan separatism is not a European or even EU issue. Also that Brussels has absolutely nothing to do with its suppression (or so the implication appears to read).

On the contrary, Catalonian separatists are absolutely raring to be part of the EU, in the unlikely case of their independence ambitions ever finding achievement. Deluding themselves in this question to even think that membership will be automatic.

In that latter instance I will however agree that such aspirations are of the mind only, if one concedes it to be pretty sick.
 
Evilroddy said:
Sven Karma:

Separatism is a matter of the heart far more than the mind and this passion makes such movements enduring and cyclical. Europe may not be impressed but the Catalan nationalist powder-keg is sitting amidst glowing embers of nationalist/separatist passions just waiting for the next opportunity or perceived slight/humiliation to reawaken into full-blown flame again. This separatism movement will not go away no matter what either Brussels or Madrid do to try to diffuse or suppress it. Like Québécois nationalism/separatism here in Canada, it will never go away or be satisfied until separation is achieved. It will wax and wane while imposing continuous economic and political costs on the parent country. The Norwegian model in separating from Sweden is foremost in separatist minds.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
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Between tablet and website my thoughtfully composed and linked reply has just vanished. In summary:

Catalan separatists would like to think of themselves as having the power and prestige of the Czech Republic (#CatalanSpring) but because the House of Barcelona spent centuries passing the buck up the line to Kingdoms from everywhere but Catalunya, they don't really want any more responsibilities than come with being the Republic of San Marino.

Bunch o'snowflakes, they're a disgrace to the cause of separatism.
 
Catalonia losing diplomatic representation:
Spanish Foreign Minister, Josep Borrell said that the Greek embassy has initiated procedures to terminate its Honorary Consul in Barcelona, Fernando Turro, for offenses to the Spanish Flag.

The Spanish Foreign Ministry summoned the Greek ambassador two weeks ago to convey displeasure over the conduct of Mr. Turro during the Diada (a regional holiday) in Barcelona when he participated in a protest in support for Catalonian independence wearing clothing allusive to regional independence.

"An ordinary citizen can do as he pleases because in this country we have freedom of expression broad enough to allow the burning of the national flag or of a picture of the King, but this doesn’t apply to a consul. If I find out any consul has done thusly I will call the ambassador and ask him to remove that consul, in this case the ambassador already knew and had initiated the process” Borrell said.

Diplomatic sources reported this Honorary Consul was observed at events inappropriate for a consul, specifically he participated in an event with Puigdemont in December last year and in the Diada celebrations was seen wearing a t-shirt adorned with the Catalonian separatist flag. For this reason the Greek ambassador was summoned and notified of the displeasure over the incident and the ambassador agreed to remove the offending consul.

The Spanish Foreign Minister explained to the regional delegate from Esquerra, Laura Castell who had complained over the termination of consuls honorary in Catalonia due to their support for secessionism, how terminating a consul requires a specific procedure which has been initiated and is expected to be completed shortly. Borrell noted the Honorary Consuls had been terminated by their respective ambassadors, that these have fewer capacities and are usually citizens of the country where they serve. The Foreign Minister also noted the other Honorary Consuls which have been terminated due to their conduct related to Catalonia secessionism are those of Finland, the Philippines, Lithuania and Bulgaria. https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2018/10/17/5bc78bd4e2704e537e8b4621.html
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The former director of the Catalonian School for Public Administration, Agusti Colomines, one of the original promoters of Catalonian independence warned that “for every independence there have been fatalities, but if you decide you don’t want anyone killed, as is the case in Catalonia, it takes longer.”

Esquerra’s delegate, Gabriel Rufián was highly critical of Colomines’ statement which he described as “an absolute barbarity”. Catalonian Socialist Party Congressional delegate, José Zaragoza, said Colomines “lacked common sense” and warned of the dangers people like Colomines may affect public opinion.” https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2018/10/17/5bc72378e2704e12598b4578.html
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Colomines is right, independence has to be seized by force. Although plenty of former imperial colonies acquired independence peacefully thanks to UN efforts after World War II, Catalonia doesn’t lack self-government and it was never a Spanish colony.

Many Catalonians support independence, but it is far from clear they are even a majority in their own region. The referendum did not garner a high level of participation, and most who opposed independence did not vote. But secession is something that affects more than just this region, it is a national issue and without a doubt most Spaniards do not support dismembering the nation.

Ultimately there are just 2 rather unattractive premises in support of independence for Catalonia; the selfish argument that their economic prosperity is reduced since they contribute more to the nation than they get in return; and a racist argument that their cultural identity makes them sufficiently different they should be separate.

I don’t see how this problem can be resolved peacefully, Spain isn’t about to agree to break itself up (it has 17 regional autonomous governments). The national government has already ‘devolved’ a significant level of government to each of its regions (the regional governments decide what level of responsibility they assume). Catalonia has more autonomy than a US State, German Land or Swiss Canton.
 
Every attempt to regard the "woes" of the Catalan independentistas with rationality, leads to the realisation that they are totally devoid of it.

It is that which makes sane dialogue virtually impossible, arguing reason with madmen and -women would be madness of itself.
 
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