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Thread: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    I think them using the parliament is neither here nor there. I don't see why its place in the Spanish system of government should bind them to not seek independence, even by means illegal under Spanish law.

    Actually, whilst flawed, this referendum would seem to indicate majority support for secession, statistically, as noted earlier. It is one piece evidence vat least against any that can be set against evidence that points the other way.

    As the Spanish government has ruled out a proper referendum, it seems a little strange to say the separatists are being undemocratic. They wanted such a poll.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 10-12-17 at 06:58 AM.
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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It is true that the issue of irregularities is an important one. Again, though, a lot of the reason the poll was not organized properly was the fault of the Spanish government.
    On the flips side, a lot of the reason the poll was not organized properly was the fault of the Catalan independent movement that forms the government (barely). The thus entailed irregularities on that side of the coin were not generated by Madrid and would have arisen with or without interference from there.
    I'm not sure what you mean about apartheid.
    Marginalizing a part of the population on account of those doing the marginalisation feeling what they marginalize to be inferior.

    Where originally conceived for (supposedly) much different reasons, the ultimate expression of having issues with own personal insecurity. Or, if one prefers, the manifestation of a ginormous inferiority complex.
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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    As I said, claims of illegality miss the point. Secession is a political issue, not a legal one. It involves throwing off the sovereignty of the original state and its laws, so it makes little sense to appeal to those laws as if they settled the matter. It is appealing to a judge that one party expressly no longer recognises. In a cases of disputed secession, I would think the nation being seceded from at least implicitly sees the secession attempt as illegal.

    You may be right about what a secession attempt may bring. But it is also the case that the modern West will not necessarily look kindly on a too domineering an approach from the Spanish. If they seem to wish stop a secession that comes to be seen as strongly supported by the Catalan people, even by dubious means, who knows what the reaction may be. And, similarly, it is quite possible such a course of action will fuel separatist feeling in Catalonia. You could plausibly end up with something like 1916 in Ireland. Already the government's recent actions have made embarrassed or made uncomfortable many outsiders. So, it could easily play out differently.
    But it is also the case that the modern West will not necessarily look kindly on a too domineering an approach from the Spanish.
    It doesn't.

    What it looks upon even more unkindly however is secession in any state that is part of it (the modern West).

    If we take that as representing Europe and certainly the US.

    And where I agree that secession is primarily a political issue, holding its legality to be irrelevant (as in merely "being pleasing to some judge") just doesn't cut it.

    There's a reason Catalonia is pretty much on its own on this issue and no international court (judge) has so far even been needed to have the international community (as outlined above) frown on it all.

    As such the right to secede is a nice philosophical talking point, it finds no confirmation in practical address (legal or political or whatever) anywhere. Case by case exceptions to the "rule" (Kosovo comes to mind) not abolishing it at all.
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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    "Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?"

    Like the U.S. government did when the confederacy seceded from the union? Of course it should.

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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I think them using the parliament is neither here nor there. I don't see why its place in the Spanish system of government should bind them to not seek independence, even by means illegal under Spanish law.

    Actually, whilst flawed, this referendum would seem to indicate majority support for secession.
    Not true. Most Catalans are opposed to independence. The poll results are meaningless because a) tens of thousands of votes were seized before counting, and b) those opposed to independence chose not to give it legitimacy by taking part and didn't want to take part in something illegal.

    And this referendum wan't just illegal under Spanish law, it was also illegal under Catalan law.

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    Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Is there any constitution in Europe which doesnt declare secession illegal? I don't think that there is any constitution which gives OK to secession referendum. So any referendum or secession should be illegal. But that doesnt mean nations stop trying to find ways.

    Without an army Catalans cant do anything. Declare independence, Spanish army will be there and take the region back with ease.

    How Greece left Ottoman Empire? They uprised and won the war thanks to their solid army, got their independent country.

    Not saying there should be a war, but dissuasiveness helps.

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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaerin View Post
    Is there any constitution in Europe which doesnt declare secession illegal? I don't think that there is any constitution which gives OK to secession referendum. So any referendum or secession should be illegal. But that doesnt mean nations stop trying to find ways.
    You're right, there is not only no constitution in Europe of that nature, there isn't one anywhere else.

    Where international law is concerned (or would be, were one to try its application) it makes no provisions for secession either. Nor, logically, does the UN.

    Without an army Catalans cant do anything. Declare independence, Spanish army will be there and take the region back with ease.
    There'll be no moving of "Spanish army" into Catalonia. For one thing it would be totally unnecessary, for another it's already there on account of Catalonia being Spain.

    How Greece left Ottoman Empire? They uprised and won the war thanks to their solid army, got their independent country.
    The Greeks would not have succeeded against the Ottomans without help from Russia, France and Britain. Each of them intervening by sending their respective navy, all three combined destroying the Ottoman navy at Navarino. For starters.

    Not saying there should be a war, but dissuasiveness helps.
    There won't be a war.

    Quite apart from Catalonia being totally unable to wage one, it wouldn't have majority support in either Catalonia or any other part of Spain.
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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaerin View Post
    Is there any constitution in Europe which doesnt declare secession illegal?
    Constitutions generally dont have any "secession" wording in it. They also dont have any wording making the illegal.

    I don't think that there is any constitution which gives OK to secession referendum. So any referendum or secession should be illegal. But that doesnt mean nations stop trying to find ways.
    The issue here is not the "secession" referendum, but the referendum itself. Most constitutions dont have any wording on referendums, so it requires an act of the legislative branch of the country to hold a referendum. Some countries do have referendum wording in it or tradition for it... Denmark for example. The UK, like Spain do not, so it would require that the national legislature to legislate a referendum. But this is for any type of referendum.. not just secession.

    Without an army Catalans cant do anything. Declare independence, Spanish army will be there and take the region back with ease.
    The Catalan army is the Spanish army..

    How Greece left Ottoman Empire? They uprised and won the war thanks to their solid army, got their independent country.
    Yes but the Greeks were also an oppressed people. The Catalans are hardly that. I fully support an oppressed peoples independence movement.. but the Catalans cant claim that they are oppressed in any way.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chagos View Post
    It doesn't.

    What it looks upon even more unkindly however is secession in any state that is part of it (the modern West).

    If we take that as representing Europe and certainly the US.

    And where I agree that secession is primarily a political issue, holding its legality to be irrelevant (as in merely "being pleasing to some judge") just doesn't cut it.

    There's a reason Catalonia is pretty much on its own on this issue and no international court (judge) has so far even been needed to have the international community (as outlined above) frown on it all.

    As such the right to secede is a nice philosophical talking point, it finds no confirmation in practical address (legal or political or whatever) anywhere. Case by case exceptions to the "rule" (Kosovo comes to mind) not abolishing it at all.
    This is true. I had in mind more the man in the street. Sitting in Britain or Australia, or wherever, and watching Spanish police knocking ordinary voters and even firemen on the head for trying to vote would have given him sympathy for the Catalans. I know people with no general interest in Catalonia or Spain, or with secession, who reacted in that way. Of course, you're right even many Western nations fear their own regions seceding, so the governments will be less sympathetic.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristaeus View Post
    Not true. Most Catalans are opposed to independence. The poll results are meaningless because a) tens of thousands of votes were seized before counting, and b) those opposed to independence chose not to give it legitimacy by taking part and didn't want to take part in something illegal.

    And this referendum wan't just illegal under Spanish law, it was also illegal under Catalan law.
    This seems wrong, statistically. Let's say two million voted. 90% voted for secession. That's 1,800,000 for secession, and 200,000 against. Let's say there's another two million voters. The anti-secession side would need just over 90%, or 1,800,001, of those voters to win. That is statistically very unlikely.

    Of course, it is true, the poll was taken under chaotic conditions. But that was the Spanish governments fault. The separatists, I believe, want a properly organised poll.

    So, yes, the poll is hardly definitive evidence, but it is something, given the conditions.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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