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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Andalublue said:
You going all Donald Trump on our arses, Pete?
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Naw, just mentioning what I am reading around the web... /shrug. Considering the chaos of the vote, it would not surprise me one bit that it happened.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
Then enlighten us blind people..
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You consider your opinion and/or that of the beauracrats and layers in Madrid and Brussels to be far more important than the people of Catalonia. That they should not be allowed to express their preferance even if that is in a none legally binding way.

This repression of democracy is what annoys the rest of us.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Tim the plumber said:
You consider your opinion and/or that of the beauracrats and layers in Madrid and Brussels to be far more important than the people of Catalonia. That they should not be allowed to express their preferance even if that is in a none legally binding way.

This repression of democracy is what annoys the rest of us.
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Why the hell did you bring Brussels into this? Has absolutely nothing to do with this. It has nothing to do with being allowed to express their preference... I am all for that, if it is done within the law and is free and fair.

1) It is not legal to hold such a referendum.. Make it so it is.. problem is that almost everyone else in Spain is against such a move.
2) This referendum is far from free and fair. It is total chaos and not because of the police intervention at a few polling stations. The vast majority of polling stations are open and people are voting.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
If there is a silver lining, then that would be that the current PP government could fall on this, and a new election would be put in place.
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Hmmm. I doubt it. I don't think anyone's keen on yet another election - the third within 2 two years. I also doubt it would deliver a different outcome to the previous two.

That can change the whole dynamic of the discussion, both in Catalonia, but across Spain.
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I don't see how.

Most Spaniards I have talked to, are ashamed over how the government have acted, but also are highly critical of the Catalan independence movement.
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Yes, that's my impression too, but down here it feels as if most of the anger is reserved for the separatists. I hear sentiments along the lines of: "They say they want their country back, but that wealthy country was built by Andaluces, Murcians and Extremadurans." And others, buying into the common stereotype: "As usual with Catalans, it's all about money." Catalans are renown in the rest of Spain for being stingy and money-obsessed.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
Why the hell did you bring Brussels into this? Has absolutely nothing to do with this. It has nothing to do with being allowed to express their preference... I am all for that, if it is done within the law and is free and fair.

1) It is not legal to hold such a referendum.. Make it so it is.. problem is that almost everyone else in Spain is against such a move.
2) This referendum is far from free and fair. It is total chaos and not because of the police intervention at a few polling stations. The vast majority of polling stations are open and people are voting.
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It is legal to hold a none legally binding vote. That the result can be quashed in court later is obviously the way to go. As long as the politicains then sort out a proper balot.

The rest of Spain does not get a say. Just like the rest of the UK did not get a say in the Scotish referendum.

That one part of the EU changes it's status within the EU should not exclude it from the EU if the EU is at all about democracy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Andalublue said:
Hmmm. I doubt it. I don't think anyone's keen on yet another election - the third within 2 two years. I also doubt it would deliver a different outcome to the previous two.

I don't see how.
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Well they might not have a choice. The government is only in power because of C and 2 regional parties basically. C is Catalan based (and anti-independence) but the way the Government has acted is exactly why C was formed back in the day..

Yes, that's my impression too, but down here it feels as if most of the anger is reserved for the separatists. I hear sentiments along the lines of: "They say they want their country back, but that wealthy country was built by Andaluces, Murcians and Extremadurans." And others, buying into the common stereotype: "As usual with Catalans, it's all about money." Catalans are renown in the rest of Spain for being stingy and money-obsessed.
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What is needed both in Spain general, but certainly in Catalonia... is a factual information campaign about the realities, else we are in another Brexit situation.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Tim the plumber said:
It is legal to hold a none legally binding vote.
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Again, the vote is illegal according to the Catalan Supreme Court and the Spanish Supreme Court, because among other things.. the wording of the referendum law makes it BINDING.

That the result can be quashed in court later is obviously the way to go. As long as the politicains then sort out a proper balot.
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It has already been quashed by the court system.. why the hell do you think the police is seizing ballot boxes... the courts have ordered it!

The rest of Spain does not get a say. Just like the rest of the UK did not get a say in the Scotish referendum.
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Since there is no law allowing such a referendum, then to get that law in place.. the whole of Spain would need to get a say.

That one part of the EU changes it's status within the EU should not exclude it from the EU if the EU is at all about democracy.
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Eh? this is an internal Spain issue, and has nothing to do with the EU. If Catalonia leaves Spain, a member state, then it is outside the EU and will have to apply. That has been clear for decades.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
Eh? this is an internal Spain issue, and has nothing to do with the EU. If Catalonia leaves Spain, a member state, then it is outside the EU and will have to apply. That has been clear for decades.
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That is exactly the problem with the EU.

The attitude that the center knows best. That the little people will do as they are told.

Which other supra national istitution would react like that???? If Scotland had decieded to break away from the rest of the UK then would the world trade organisation have forced them to apply for membership? How about NATO? The UN?

Only the EU is so precious about it's power and intollerance of any change at all about such things that it will have a tantrum.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
You are somewhat mis-representing the situation.

1) The vote is illegal... even under Catalan law, the Catalan laws of the past (which the independence movement are using as an excuse) and international law. Legally, the independence movement is breaking every rule in the book.
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The USA declaring independence in 1776 was also illegal. And yet, here we are.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
The vote is illegal. It is no different if Texas suddenly held a referendum on independence.. There is no legal base whatsoever to do that in the US. Or if Austin or Dallas wanted to leave Texas.. no legal basis to do so.



No. Why? Because you and others use this as a political excuse. The right for self determination is a idea coming from the UN, when it relates to occupied areas and colonies. Catalonia is neither. And it is hilarious how the right of self determination is suddenly something American Conservatives push for, but deny the people of Palestine and others.. just because they are against them politically. You do know that the Madrid government are right wing and support your dear leader right?



The PP government has royally ****ed this up, no doubt about that. However there is no legal ability at present in the Spanish constitution to hold such a referendum. That means one has to change the constitution and there is no backing for that in Parliament. The PP certainly dont want it, and most regions in Spain dont want it. The Socialists might be for the change, but they are not in power. In fact, who backs up the current government? A Catalonian anti-Independence party and two regional parties..



Then vote them out. Starting a rebellion like this based mostly on lies, is counter productive.
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Basic point, its non binding. Its a weather vane vote to see if the will is there to take further action.

Secondly, the Palestinian question is absurdly different from this one. I'm not going to breach ME protocol to discuss it and you shouldn't bait a hook with it.

Third paragraph, politicians never want to relinquish power of any sort. Yeah, they are going to be against it.

A rebellion usually isn't able to grow on lies.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Tim the plumber said:

That is exactly the problem with the EU.
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You clearly do not understand what the EU is.

The attitude that the center knows best. That the little people will do as they are told.
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Go read the freaking EU treaty. In it the "little people" are specifically protected and can not be discriminated against. The EU has a long history of standing up for minority regions.. for example, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Which other supra national istitution would react like that???? If Scotland had decieded to break away from the rest of the UK then would the world trade organisation have forced them to apply for membership? How about NATO? The UN?
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YES THEY WOULD. NATO, UN, WTO would ALL require that Scotland would have to apply to their organisations.

Only the EU is so precious about it's power and intollerance of any change at all about such things that it will have a tantrum.
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No, it is your ignorance that is the problem here.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

OpportunityCost said:
Basic point, its non binding. Its a weather vane vote to see if the will is there to take further action.
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Again, the wording of the law that started this referendum makes it binding. It specifically states (as far as I understand it), that if there is a yes vote, then Catalonia would be independent the next day. That makes it binding, even though it technically is an illegal law and referendum.

Secondly, the Palestinian question is absurdly different from this one. I'm not going to breach ME protocol to discuss it and you shouldn't bait a hook with it.
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Bull****, but lets leave it at that.

Third paragraph, politicians never want to relinquish power of any sort. Yeah, they are going to be against it.
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And exactly why the pro-independence politicians are for it, as it will gain them much more power than now. They cant hack it on a national level, so they chose this as their way for power. It is classic.

A rebellion usually isn't able to grow on lies.
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Cough.. Brexit.... Cough Trump.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Geoist said:
The USA declaring independence in 1776 was also illegal. And yet, here we are.
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Yes it was, but unlike Spain, the US and UK at the time were not democracies, and the US did not have considerable self rule... Catalonia has.. far more than ANY other Spanish region.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
Again, the wording of the law that started this referendum makes it binding. It specifically states (as far as I understand it), that if there is a yes vote, then Catalonia would be independent the next day. That makes it binding, even though it technically is an illegal law and referendum.



Bull****, but lets leave it at that.



And exactly why the pro-independence politicians are for it, as it will gain them much more power than now. They cant hack it on a national level, so they chose this as their way for power. It is classic.



Cough.. Brexit.... Cough Trump.
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Then the judicial will negate the result, but I am betting a legal referendum will follow...IF the result is in favor of secession.

Indeed, lets.

The natural progression of government is to accrue power. We both know this is a fact, you are switching the politicians to assume its just about power. Maybe it isn't.

Please explain how either is a rebellion when both are legal voting processes. Quit grandstanding, no one is impressed.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
You clearly do not understand what the EU is.



Go read the freaking EU treaty. In it the "little people" are specifically protected and can not be discriminated against. The EU has a long history of standing up for minority regions.. for example, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.



YES THEY WOULD. NATO, UN, WTO would ALL require that Scotland would have to apply to their organisations.



No, it is your ignorance that is the problem here.
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You mean that you do not understand that the Catalans are citizens of the EU as are the Spaniards and that Spain was admitted as a total including Catalonia? That would mean they no longer were the entity that the EU had admitted any more than Catalonia.

As to reading the EU treaties, we had long seen that you don't know them very well. I cannot off hand remember which decision it was, but when asked, which EU organizations could propose it and which had to agree with which majorities you you couldn't figure it out.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

OpportunityCost said:
Then the judicial will negate the result, but I am betting a legal referendum will follow...IF the result is in favor of secession.
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It will clearly favor secession.. that is a given. The whole referendum is fixed from the start as all the other referendums have been. The reports of people voting more than once, does not surprise me one bit as that has happened before when the independence movement have held one of their referendums..

The natural progression of government is to accrue power. We both know this is a fact, you are switching the politicians to assume its just about power. Maybe it isn't.
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Oh it is. The independent guys are nothing but corrupt politicians and their only desire is to get as much power as possible. Many are linked to corruption cases, and one of the biggest corruption cases in Spain, is against Catalan politicians. And not it is not a political vendetta against them, but actual criminal activity (the second biggest is against the ruling party btw.. one could argue the biggest).

Point is, in Spain there are very few traditional politicians who are not in it for the power and the Catalan independence movement party is part of that "traditionalist" system.

Please explain how either is a rebellion when both are legal voting processes. Quit grandstanding, no one is impressed.
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Both were riddled with lies and outside influences that went against the truth and facts. That resulted in those "rebellions" winning.

In the Catalan debate the following issue are often discussed.

Money. The independence movement claims that Catalonia will be better off outside of Spain and tout the same excuses as Brexit basically. Reality is never talked about... like the reality that a huge portion of Catalan production and sales goes to the rest of Spain, which would be cut off if they left.. Spain. They also ignore the fact that an independent Catalonia would be outside the EU and so on and so on. On top of that, the numbers they throw around to prove that the rest of Spain is ripping them off, are.. lets put it nicely, highly suspect.

This is just some of the lies and bs that comes from the Catalan independence movement. They even say that Madrid is too controlling of Catalonia... for **** sake, the region has more autonomy than any other region and Spain is extremely decentralized already.

Now had it been a real independence movement, then such lies would not be needed. Problem is, that Catalans and Spain are so integrated now days, that you cant pick one or the other out of a crowd. Many workers in Catalonia are in fact from the rest of Spain and there is a large catalonian presence across Spain. Catalan wealth is built on the back of the rest of Spain.. and that is a fact!.. which is why this whole thing pisses a lot of people off.

But lets be clear here... there is bad blood between the PP conservative party and the Catalan Independence movement.. going back many many decades. PP is the natural successor to the Franco party, and what Franco did to the Catalans (and other regions, but especially the Catalans) was horrible. This animosity lives on today. Had it been the socialists in power, then this would not be going on.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

joG said:
You mean that you do not understand that the Catalans are citizens of the EU as are the Spaniards and that Spain was admitted as a total including Catalonia? That would mean they no longer were the entity that the EU had admitted any more than Catalonia.
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What? If part of a member country leaves said member country to become independent, then that is a new country and will be outside all organisation on the planet. It is like when South Sudan became independent.. it had to apply to the UN and everything else. No difference.

As to reading the EU treaties, we had long seen that you don't know them very well. I cannot off hand remember which decision it was, but when asked, which EU organizations could propose it and which had to agree with which majorities you you couldn't figure it out.
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What on earth are you talking about now? The EU commission proposes legislation on behalf of the council of Ministers. The council of Ministers and the European Parliament vote on the legislation. It is pretty simple you know.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Geoist said:
The USA declaring independence in 1776 was also illegal. And yet, here we are.
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Winning does have major perks!:mrgreen:
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The merits of the Catalan independence movement are really not central to this thread. We can take it as a given that Spain and pro-Spanish Catalans will view the referendum as deeply flawed and illegal, while nationalist and pro-separatist Catalans will see it as legitimate and necessary. But that is not the point of the thread here. The question asked is, "Is the Spanish reaction to the referendum wise?".

It has been my experience that such movements are driven far more by emotion, passion, nationalism/tribalism and aspirational identity then by objective reason. Thus expecting that the parties involved will limit themselves to the rational weighing of costs and benefits is often delusional and dangerous to civil peace. If the core of such nationalist independence movements is emotional and aspirational, then reacting with facts and reason is pointless and taking a heavy hand will almost invariably inflame the intensity and the scope of nationalism in a separatist region and thus serves to promote the nationalist cause by blinding people more to reason.

The argument that disinformation, non-objective arguments and outright lies occur during such campaigns is really somewhat irrelevant because nationalist and aspirational separatist movements at the popular level are not rational programmes at all. They are matters of the heart. Even if a separatist referendum is defeated, the embers of nationalism and the desire for independence persist, ready to reignite into a new conflagration at any real or perceived slight to the aspirant population at anytime down the road. Centripetal nationalism never goes away and is never constrained by reason. It is an emotional driver of passion and not a rational driver of intellect at the broad level of a population. So forceful suppression of a referendum will only inflame passions and harden convictions on all sides making negotiation and consciliation much harder.

As to the question of legality, it is largely moot in such circumstances. Nationalism is a political force and is driven by emotion, passion, identity and aspiration. Therefore its proponents will tend to view any law which constrains their project as unfairly imposed by the other(s) who are bent on thwarting their aspirations. Such laws are thus seen as the yoke of power rather than a legitimate set of agreed-upon constraints for the benefit of all. The law may be on the books but it is not viewed as "just" law and its value is therefore discounted or even fully rejected. Independence movements are not legal movements but political movements. Their proponents tend to believe that law is subservient to politics, until the goal is attained. Then they themselves can pass "just" laws that reflect the values of their own nationalist project to replace the "unjust" laws which others use to deny them their aspirations. Using laws rather than political persuasion and emotional propaganda to oppose a separatist movement is pointless, because the people you are attempting to constrain with such laws don't recognise such laws as valid and binding.

So how does Spain proceed on October the second and beyond? More demands for submission to an imposed set of received factoids form on high, more law which is seen as invalid by those who are supposed to follow it, more force which inflames hatred and perceptions of "otherness" and thus more alienation? Is there another path and if so what is it?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU said:
What? If part of a member country leaves said member country to become independent, then that is a new country and will be outside all organisation on the planet. It is like when South Sudan became independent.. it had to apply to the UN and everything else. No difference.
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I may be wrong but (everything being possible with that poster) the implication appears to be that España sin Catalunya would have its EU-membership in doubt on account of not being the same state that joined.

But I sure hope such a statement to be the accidental result of often observed syntax problems here, because if Spain's EU status (rather than Catalunya's) is really called into question on account of Catalunya theoretically seceding, that take would constitute new levels of stupidity.

What on earth are you talking about now? ................~
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I'd be inclined to second the question if I could at all be earnest about it.

As things stand, dealing with just one item of puzzlement from said source will have to suffice for now.:mrgreen:
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
The merits of the Catalan independence movement are really not central to this thread.
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Not to ignore the rest of your post, for reasons of brevity just these
"Is the Spanish reaction to the referendum wise?".
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No way, José.
The argument that disinformation, non-objective arguments and outright lies occur during such campaigns is really somewhat irrelevant because nationalist and aspirational separatist movements at the popular level are not rational programmes at all.
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I find none of it irrelevant and opening the gates to any of it on the premise "well, that's what happens so let's not bother with introducing rational thinking into the matter" is most certainly not the way to go.As
to the question of legality, it is largely moot in such circumstances.
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It is most certainly NOT that.

Even where I agree on the folly (like here) of addressing a political issue by exclusively judiciary means.
Is there another path and if so what is it?
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I don't hold it to be the-one-all-to-end-all solution, but the first thing is that Rajoy needs to go.

His government is at best precarious anyway, like the UK's May he's in a minority government that depends on support (tolerance) by others.

The trouble of course being that if others withdraw their support, we'd need once again elections and they'd be the 3rd in three years. With the last one having achieved pretty much the same result that the one prior to it did, resulting in a a 314 day deadlock that left Spain (at least theoretically) without any government whatsoever.

So if he were kicked out, the only advantage that might arise is that an incorrigible bonehead would be gone, yet to be replaced by what?

No other Spanish party supports Catalunya's secession plans. Outside of Catalunya, that is, and apart from (on the national scale) Podemos that would at least allow a referendum (not secession as such).
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Mariano Rajoy, who had declared the vote illegal and used batons and rubber bullets to thwart an independence vote, made a huge mistake by behaving like the Chinese suppressing Hong Kong's democracy movement. This will undermine the legitimacy of the current Spanish government. Mariano Rajoy is the leader of the People's Party, which is an offshoot of Francisco Franco's dictatorship. The People's Party was founded by Manuel Fraga Iribarne, a former Minister of the Interior and Minister of Tourism during Francisco Franco's dictatorship. The right-wing party inherited some of Franco's fascist policies, who suspended Spain's regional autonomy when he was in power.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The PP/Rajoy return to their fascist roots was almost predictable. He has taken a hardline stance from the beginning mainly to bolster support from his backwoods, but also to divert from the PP's ongoing corruption scandal, which must be a decade long if not more.
It should be said the the Catalan leadership and separatist movement is also conservative, and the motivation on both sides is nationalism.
 
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