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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Chagos said:
I posit that the Spanish one was more of a "provisorium" (intentionally) than, certainly, the American or British was (don't start on Britain not having one, it does
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That, I'd like to see please ... !
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra said:
So, as is said here the Catalonian ‘resistance’ so far is a bit of a “nothing burger”, not much of that anticipated Spanish violence either.
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It's due to the abnormally hot-weather we're having ... ;^)
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Sven Karma said:
Talking of corrupt crooks, it's amusing to see how thoroughly Jordi Pujol (Catalan President for 23 years - I taught a woman the rumour in town was that she was his illegitimate daughter) has now been airbrushed from their history. From Wikipedia: ... his personal friend Xavier Trias, the Mayor of Barcelona, lamented on Catalonia Radio "He must disappear...He failed us. It is a disaster that has taken place and the shadowy times of Pujol are finished while a new era begins."

A new era that has ended with Mr. Bean as their President.
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Who cares? What is happening in Barcelona is about as important to the world as a mayoral election in Uzbekistan.

The Barcelonians have a better-than-standard-Spanish economy due to tourism. What more should they want? (Moreover, let's not forget the fundamental fact that 49% of the population say they don't care at all to leave Spain.)

Independence? From what? For what?

And if we set an exit-precedence in the EU with Barcelona, who's next? Monaco, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Flanders, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

National Pride, that's all it is. Iow, "Barcelonian fools-gold" ...
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

kaerin said:
Without their own army they can't do anything. Spanish national police probably will seize the Catalan parliament today and arrest most of the ministers.
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Called it, five days ago. All got arrested.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

kaerin said:
Called it, five days ago. All got arrested.
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Not all.

And those that did, can primarily thank their "loyal" compatriots that fled to Brussels, from there to defy the courts back home by ignoring the summons.

It's not something that any sensible magistrate would encourage any further by giving others the chance to still do the same thing.

What might have been "just" a summons for all (not arrest straight out of parliament as per your "prophesy"), turned into a clear flight risk being determined (see the Brussels bunch behavior) as well as the risk of evidence being obscured. To forestall that by taking those suspected into custody is no novelty. Not in Spain and not anywhere else in the West.

A ninth ex-MP (when one sums up the lot) remains free on bail BTW. Basically because he resigned a day before the final vote and declaration in Catalan parliament. Where he of course continues to be investigated, the likelihood of him fleeing was seen as remote.
 
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There'll no doubt be a European arrest order for Puigdemont and his bunch issued by Spain pretty soon. Where Puigdemont stated that he'll honor it the minute it arrives with Belgian authorities, just watch what he'll really do.

Seeing how it's execution will be down to the ruling of a Belgian judge (which can take months), I'll take bets on what Puigdemont's idea of "honoring" will show to be. But the odds are lousy so it's not much of a bet.
 
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Did Spain suppress the independence movements in Latin America?
 
shrubnose said:
Did Spain suppress the independence movements in Latin America?
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Of course, just as the US did and every other colonial power. You do know that you have an independent state within the US right? The Republic of Van Zandt.. technically they are still an independent nation and the US sent in thousands of troops to kill.. err suppress the movement, and lost at first. After a bit of fighting the US and the Republic of Van Zandt came to an agreement, but the independence proclamation was never taken back.. just a funny bit of history.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Chagos said:
Bringing it to the heart of Europe (Brussels) when the heart is closed being just another example of the general buffoonery.
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I had no idea how problematic Puigdemont's visit to Brussels had become:
This past week many Belgians have been asking themselves who runs their country, formally the answer is the liberal French-speaking Prime Minister Charles Michel, but increasingly more seem to think it’s the conservative Flemish mayor of Antwerp, Bart De Wever, leader of the Flemish separatist party N-VA, who won the popular vote.

The crisis resulting from former Catalonian president Carles Puigdemont’s sudden arrival, has reignited the debate and generated fissures in Belgium’s governing coalition which is experiencing the “highest tension” according to media there.

Le Soir described the N-VA as “struggling to keep its balance on a tightrope" as a consequence of the political crisis due to Flemish flirtings over the Catalonian cause and the presence of Puigdemont which caught everyone unprepared, and, once again placed Belgium in a diplomatic incident with Spain. "Michel has sent all his Ministers a message imploring they not make further comments regarding Catalonia and to pass it on” said Le Soir.

The situation is quite delicate as Michel’s party only came in fifth in the 2014 elections, but due to the convoluted political and demographic apportionments in Belgium, he managed to cobble together a government with several Flemish parties. After three years tenuously holding things together, Michel fears the possibility Spain’s political problem will destroy his government.

The situation is complicated. Michel has been the European Head of State most critical of Rajoy, Spain and the police intervention. These are his sincere views, but he is also responding to the conservative elements in his coalition, who are sympathetic towards Catalonian secessionism. Jan Jambon, Interior Minister (and Secretary of State for Immigration –which covers asylum in Belgium) toyed with the idea of granting Puigdemont asylum, he also has repeatedly been the guest of honor at the Diada (Catalonian national day) celebrations on September 11.

Michel needs to respond to pressure from the N-VA to be critical of Spain, but knows full well that every utterance in this direction will be used in the struggle for Flemish independence. Puigdemont’s trip had all the leading Belgian figures disconnected for a few days. After Puigdemont’s press conference the Belgian government issued a note Monday saying they hadn’t invited him and that would offer him the same rights accorded any European “nothing more and nothing less”, that they would apply the law. Not even anyone from the N-VA would receive or greet Puigdemont.

De Wever on Wednesday pushed ahead saying Puigdemont was a friend and that friends are always welcome, but the truth is the Catalonian delegation has clearly been made to appreciate their presence is problematic. It appears this is why Puigdemont has made every effort to keep his distance, reiterating he was not there to see any local politicians, that “he wasn’t in Belgium, rather in in Brussels because it is the capital of Europe” and that “he would not combine matters”.

Belgian are carefully monitoring developments and exhaustively reviewing all political angles. “Puigdemont’s Circus Will Stay” De Morgen daily headlined yesterday. Geert Bourgeois, the presiding Flemish Minister criticized Spain for jailing democratically elected leaders, but his predecessor, Kris Peeters, now in the government, was harshly critical of Puigdemont; “when one declares independence it is better to stay close to one’s people” he affirmed categorically.

It now seems like a struggle, the N-VA doesn’t seem to be trying to bring down the government, but it has incentives to push as this will please voters and establish precedent. Michel doesn’t want to lose his job, but there are limits, he needs to resist pressure from the Walloons who don’t understand the concessions to the separatists, and avoid controversy with Spain. The next decisions relating to Puigdemont will be dealt with by the judiciary, but there could be missteps, many on all sides see opportunities to gain and they keep fanning the flames, the precarious coalition may get burned not for their own separatists, but for Spain’s. Declaración de independencia de Cataluña: Carles Puigdemont, el inquilino más incómodo para Bélgica | EL MUNDO
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra said:
I had no idea how problematic Puigdemont's visit to Brussels had become:
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By what appears, probably just as much a nothing burger.

If Belgium plays it the same way "it's a judiciary matter and we're bound by European arrest orders just like any EU country", they'll probably be able to keep it out of domestic politics as best as they can. That clearly doesn't mean being able to keep it out altogether but nobody is going to start a Euro-crisis over this, not even the Flamandes (much as they'll exploit it).

Of course due process allows Puigdemont (and Bekaert) to fight the extradition or even the arrest order itself. We can all meanwhile sit down and make large quantities of tea.

As a side note and not much related, there was a similar case in Spain recently, where a German national of Turkish origin was arrested on account of an "interpol" arrest order (not the same thing as its European version) issued by Turkey.

The Spanish court set him free on bail immediately (but grabbing his passport) and then, deciding that Turkey had not presented any credible case, finally ruled on his complete release. But it took some weeks.

Frankly I feel these two clowns (Carles and Manuel) are like two idiot parents, each by now wanting to inflict as much damage as possible on the other in a divorce case and the children be damned. Puigdemont gave the (PP-influenced) court all the excuse it needed to jail the "left-behind" and there's obviously nobody around with sufficient influence to tell everybody to darn well cool it now.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Chagos said:
By what appears, probably just as much a nothing burger.
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Of course this is a matter of perspective. To a Catalan separatist, this is nothing less than transcendental, to Spaniards it is pretty important too. For Belgians, apparently the Walloon and Francophone would agree with you, but the Flemish seem to think this matters.
If Belgium plays it the same way "it's a judiciary matter and we're bound by European arrest orders just like any EU country", they'll probably be able to keep it out of domestic politics as best as they can. That clearly doesn't mean being able to keep it out altogether but nobody is going to start a Euro-crisis over this, not even the Flamandes (much as they'll exploit it).
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It IS a judiciary matter, and they ARE bound by Europol warrants like all Euers. Puigdemont will make his case to a Belgian magistrate who will be much more concerned with Spanish procedural compliance than with Catalonian claims for self-determination.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Spain’s Constitutional Court resolved unanimously to decline the claim brought by the Generalitat against application of Article 155 as it was “premature”.

Specifically the Court noted the appeal was filed at 2:43pm on October 27, before the Senate voted and approved the constitutional application. Thus the appeal was found not to comply with one of the prerequisites to impugn the constitutionality of any regulation; that they be brought only after publication in the Official State Gazette. Declaración de independencia en Cataluña: El Tribunal Constitucional no admite por "prematuro" el recurso de la Generalitat contra el artículo 155 | EL MUNDO
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Now that it's been published and enacted, the Generalitat should try again, and hurry up or this will become moot before the Court can decide.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Plus Ultra said:
Now that it's been published and enacted, the Generalitat should try again, and hurry up or this will become moot before the Court can decide.
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Speaking of hurry, it'll be interesting to see how Puigdemont is going to follow his bid of running in the 21-D as well.

From Belgium.

I do think that the times were monarchs could do things by proxy (like marry, for instance) are gone.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Chagos said:
Speaking of hurry, it'll be interesting to see how Puigdemont is going to follow his bid of running in the 21-D as well.

From Belgium.

I do think that the times were monarchs could do things by proxy (like marry, for instance) are gone.
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Let's not overlook the irony of Fuigdemont, President of a new 'Republic' taking refuge ... in a monarchy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

By using charges of rebellion and sedition are Spain's charges and potential prosecutions really criminal matters or are they political, using the judiciary as a tool for punishing political foes of Spain?

Rebellion usually connotes armed insurrection and not a peaceful, albeit illegal, exercise in inconvenient democracy. Sedition is a difficult one too, because it has not been applied to other independence leaders who proved to be far more radical and dangerous than the Catalan separatist leadership. If the Catalan parliament and cabinet were truely autonomous before the invocation of Ariticle 155, then didn't the duly elected Catalan Government have the mandate to spend money on its projects including the pro-Sovereignist campaign and referendum? Autonomy implies freedom of choice and the discretion to spend public funds in accordance with the government's mandate. And before people claim that the spending was illegal because the courts had declared the referendum illegal, I remind you that governments often spend money in defiance of court rulings and then settle the matter either by legislation or civil compensation after the fact. Rarely, if ever are crimminal charges used in such cases of government defiance of court orders except when the prosecutions are politically motivated. Will Spain next try to resurrect old Laissez Majiste laws to silence critics and political opposition?

Furthermore, holding separatists and parlamentarians in jail without bail makes matters worse. It turns political fools and opportunists into ersatz martyrs to their cause. This latest round of seemingly clumsy spite and malice on behalf of Madrid will only deepen the divides and accelerate the ideological demography tending towards effective independence and perhaps another future civil war throughout Spain in the long run, by my opinion.

Spain/Madrid should have made it clear that the referendum was illegal, null and void and that it would not recognise the results. It should have allowed the plebiscite to go forward unhindered and simply refused to cooperate with the separatists. It should not have used federal police to shut down the vote. It should have invoked Article 155. It should have subtly manoeuvred the separatists into making forceful demonstrations of their sovereignty and then thrown the legal book at them, justly claiming it was acting to preserve peace, order and good governance in reaction to forceful demonstrations of illegal sovereignty. It could then issue summons and arrest warrants with real substance, offered the offenders high bails, released them and quietly hoped (and manoeuvred so) that they would jump bail, flee and in so doing delegitimise whatever perceived legitimacy the separatists had with most Catalan and other Spanish separatists. It could then use European-wide arrest warrants to have them detained and extradited back to Spain for meaningful prosecution of real crimes rather than this kabuki theatre of what will likely be political show-trials.

This has been badly handled from the start by Madrid and the mismanagement continues even now. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
By using charges of rebellion and sedition are Spain's charges and potential prosecutions really criminal matters or are they political, using the judiciary as a tool for punishing political foes of Spain?
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No, the charges are based on the laws they broke. And you forget the most important charge.. abuse of public funds. The Rebellion and sedition charges are hard to prove, but the abuse of public funds is a slam dunk.

If the Catalan parliament and cabinet were truely autonomous before the invocation of Ariticle 155, then didn't the duly elected Catalan Government have the mandate to spend money on its projects including the pro-Sovereignist campaign and referendum? Autonomy implies freedom of choice and the discretion to spend public funds in accordance with the government's mandate.
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See this is the problem with people outside Spain and especially in the Anglo-speaking anti-European political sphere... Autonomy comes in various degrees. US states have a degree of autonomy, as does Greenland in my own country. In Spain that even means different things depending on the region in question. Of the 19 different autonomous regions/cities in Spain, Catalonia had the most autonomy of them all.

Now that autonomy gives the regionally elected government certain discretion on how to spend it, but it does not give them the discretion on spending money on things that break the law..which is what they did. Spending money on a pro independence agenda is not illegal, but spending money on an illegal referendum or election is. Spending money on a police force is legal, but spending money on a death squad or narko distribution ring is not.

And before people claim that the spending was illegal because the courts had declared the referendum illegal, I remind you that governments often spend money in defiance of court rulings and then settle the matter either by legislation or civil compensation after the fact. Rarely, if ever are crimminal charges used in such cases of government defiance of court orders except when the prosecutions are politically motivated. Will Spain next try to resurrect old Laissez Majiste laws to silence critics and political opposition?
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Bull****. Governments dont often spend money in defiance of court rulings.. what a load of bs.

Furthermore, holding separatists and parlamentarians in jail without bail makes matters worse. It turns political fools and opportunists into ersatz martyrs to their cause. This latest round of seemingly clumsy spite and malice on behalf of Madrid will only deepen the divides and accelerate the ideological demography tending towards effective independence and perhaps another future civil war throughout Spain in the long run, by my opinion.
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You can thank Puigdemont for this, since he fled with a few of his cohorts. Hence they are a flight risk. Plus it is not normal to give people accused of treason bail, especially if they are a flight risk. As for a future civil war throughout Spain.. that would be valid if the Catalan Seperatists had any support outside of Catalonia in Spain.. They dont. Even the Basque country is against what they are doing. Hell half of the population (at least) in Catalonia is against what they are doing.

Spain/Madrid should have made it clear that the referendum was illegal, null and void and that it would not recognise the results.
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For the love of god.. THEY DID!!! Months in advance. It has been standard policy for decades when it comes to seperatist movements holding illegal referendums. It is not the first time the Catalans have held such a referendum.

This has been badly handled from the start by Madrid and the mismanagement continues even now. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
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Yes it has, from both sides. Madrid on the other hand are doing exactly what they should be doing considering the separatists refuse to negotiate. I would agree, the police action during the referendum was too much, but it does not change the fact that the referendum was illegal, it was declared illegal and blocked by the courts long before it was held, and the courts were the ones that sent the police in to seize the materials on referendum day. It was the separatists who willingly and knowingly broke the law and the constitution.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

PeteEU:

Bull****. Governments dont often spend money in defiance of court rulings.. what a load of bs.
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I live in Quebec where the Provincial Government often defies Canadian law or ignores it. Quebec even collects its own taxes directly, unlike any other province in Canada, meaning that we in Quebec have to fill out and file two tax forms and pay two income taxes here. It regularly spends money on programmes which frustrate the Canadian Government's plans and often refuses to participate in Canadian Federal Government programmes. I know from firsthand experience how not BS this is. Quebec regularly spends public money enforcing language, cultural, educational and resource extraction laws which have been struck down in part or in whole by Federal Court and the Canadian Supreme Court. The same is true for First Nations who Quebec legally rides rough-shod over. I and my neighbours live with it daily.

You can thank Puigdemont for this, since he fled with a few of his cohorts. Hence they are a flight risk. Plus it is not normal to give people accused of treason bail, especially if they are a flight risk. As for a future civil war throughout Spain.. that would be valid if the Catalan Seperatists had any support outside of Catalonia in Spain.. They dont. Even the Basque country is against what they are doing. Hell half of the population (at least) in Catalonia is against what they are doing.
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Temporal gymnastics, good Dane! The two Jordis were jailed and denied bail before Puigdemont declared independence and before he fled Spain. Treason had not yet been committed (assuming it ever was, which is by no means a legal certainty) and since the two Jordis were in jail when the declaration was made, they can hardly be held responsible for acts which were out of their control at the time they were taken. You are reacting emotionally to a situation which calls for calm and dispassionate reason.

It was the separatists who willingly and knowingly broke the law and the constitution.
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When a person or persons break a law or reject certain legal principles in a constitution, then it is a legal problem for the courts to adjudicate and solve. When a nation or a substantial part of a nation reject laws and deny legal principles in a constitution, then it is a political problem for the whole state and electorate to solve. Using the courts to enforce laws which a nation or people rejects does not solve the problem, it just makes the situation worse and reduces the courts and the law to coercive tools of political dominance rather than an agreed upon rule of law for mutual benefit of all.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
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Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Evilroddy said:
PeteEU:
I live in Quebec where the Provincial Government often defies Canadian law or ignores it. Quebec even collects its own taxes directly, unlike any other province in Canada, meaning that we in Quebec have to fill out and file two tax forms and pay two income taxes here. It regularly spends money on programmes which frustrate the Canadian Government's plans and often refuses to participate in Canadian Federal Government programmes. I know from firsthand experience how not BS this is. Quebec regularly spends public money enforcing language, cultural, educational and resource extraction laws which have been struck down in part or in whole by Federal Court and the Canadian Supreme Court. The same is true for First Nations who Quebec legally rides rough-shod over. I and my neighbours live with it daily.
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Yes, so you live in a lawless area of Canada. That does not mean that the rest of the civilized world is like that. Regional governments cant just break the law without consequences.

Temporal gymnastics, good Dane! The two Jordis were jailed and denied bail before Puigdemont declared independence and before he fled Spain. Treason had not yet been committed (assuming it ever was, which is by no means a legal certainty) and since the two Jordis were in jail when the declaration was made, they can hardly be held responsible for acts which were out of their control at the time they were taken. You are reacting emotionally to a situation which calls for calm and dispassionate reason.
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Boy you just love to leave out facts dont you? The so called two Jordis were arrested 14 days after the referendum. Puigdemont declaring independence had nothing to do with their arrest. They were arrested for inciting violence among other things.

When a person or persons break a law or reject certain legal principles in a constitution, then it is a legal problem for the courts to adjudicate and solve. When a nation or a substantial part of a nation reject laws and deny legal principles in a constitution, then it is a political problem for the whole state and electorate to solve. Using the courts to enforce laws which a nation or people rejects does not solve the problem, it just makes the situation worse and reduces the courts and the law to coercive tools of political dominance rather than an agreed upon rule of law for mutual benefit of all.
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For the love of god.. what the hell do you think the ****ing courts have been doing for the last many months? You seem to think that is the government that is ordering people arrested and all that.. NO, it is the court system, because the people being arrested have broken in many cases.. COURT ORDERS!! This whole thing has been going through the Spanish court system for years, and at every turn the separatists have been beaten.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

just to address this
Evilroddy said:
~...................When a person or persons break a law or reject certain legal principles in a constitution, then it is a legal problem for the courts to adjudicate and solve. When a nation or a substantial part of a nation reject laws and deny legal principles in a constitution, then it is a political problem for the whole state and electorate to solve. Using the courts to enforce laws which a nation or people rejects does not solve the problem, it just makes the situation worse and reduces the courts and the law to coercive tools of political dominance rather than an agreed upon rule of law for mutual benefit of all.
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..................propagates the principle of one person (breaking the law) being a criminal, two persons being a group, twelve a gang, hundreds a manifestation of organized crime and hundreds of thousands suddenly okay and thus to be addressed as a political problem.

Give over, roddy.

Quite apart from, in this instance, not hundreds of thousands actually being charged with a crime.

And if you're principally going to accuse any court of being a political instrument of the powers that be, you might as well do away with ANY judiciary altogether.

So rather than charge others with reacting overly emotionally, it might do you some good to address your own projections. For starters by acquainting yourself with the actual facts and perusing those in the rational manner they deserve.

I don't necessarily disagree over how this could have been handled in a manner far less prone to escalate things, but that has nothing to do with existing laws or the breaking of same.

And declaring independence unilaterally in full knowledge of the act breaking the laws, did nothing by way of de-escalation either.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

..............just heard (radio) that Puigdemont turned himself in to Belgian police today. Together with the 4 ex-MPs that accompanied him.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Sedition is the public and collective uprising against authority, public order or military discipline, that falls short of rebellion or treason. It refers to conduct that may be regarded by the authority as the basis for insurrection against the established order and includes any general commotion against the government featuring violence against the application of law. Sedition is viewed as a subversive act and for this reason is prosecuted. Sedition requires some final act that breaches public order, it is not found by mere support for opposition to the government or by aiding and abetting those who do, nor by participating in peaceful protests against the government.

Under Spanish Criminal Law, Vol. 2, Chapter XXII: Crimes Against Public Order; Article 544
Those accused of sedition are criminals who, without being included with the crime of rebellion, publicly and groups prevent the application of law by any authority in the performance of their legitimate responsibilities by force without making use of lawful means.
1. Those who induced, supported or directed sedition, or who appeared as a principal perpetrator, shall be punished with imprisonment for 8-10 years, and 10-15 years if under color of law. In both cases they will be precluded from public office for the same periods.
2. In other cases they shall be punished with 4 years imprisonment and precluded from public office for 4-8 years.
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Oscar Lopez Rivera, a Puerto Rican nationalist and Vietnam veteran was sentenced to 70 years in prison for conspiracy to sedition and other crimes, has been in jail for 32 years (rejected Bill Clinton’s offer of a pardon in 1999).
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Spain’s Supreme Court inclined to release the imprisoned former Consellers and vice-president: https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/11/07/actualidad/1510081884_087301.html

Rajoy thinks it would be preferable the incarcerated former vice-president and Consellers be released and allowed to campaign: https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/11/07/actualidad/1510082695_300008.html

Of course, they could still be convicted and sentenced to jail, though I doubt this could happen before the regional election on December 21. It would be very unfortunate if any of these former Consellers and vice-president Oriol Junqueras won the election, and then got convicted and sentenced to jail, look bad for Spain. I expect there will be convictions and doubt any of this lot will prevail in the regional election.
 
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