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Should Spain Forcefully Supress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

D'oh! Apologies for spelling "Suppress" incorrectly in the title.

A sheepish looking Evilroddy.

How about apologising for using a spelling of Catalan that no one uses? ;)
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

This whole situation is as Chagos describes it: a perfect storm of corrupt, self-serving politicos who have no interest in addressing Spain's real economic and social issues. This stuff is so much more engaging than actual politics.

The Spanish government is making a huge mistake in the level of violence it is using to suppress the referendum; that's playing directly into the hands of the Catalan separatists who can now draw ever more convincing parallels with the behaviour of the dictatorship. The referendum may indeed contravene the Spanish constitution, but the overwhelming majority of Catalans who want to vote, many of whom are against independence, cannot be ignored. They want an existential, constitutional question answered and the constitution currently does not provide that answer. It should be the role of the central government to amend the constitution to facilitate the ability of the Catalan people to express their will. There's little doubt in my mind that they would vote to remain a part of Spain, and remain within the EU and its single market.

For their part the Catalan separatists are using every tactic of emotional blackmail to further their unilateral policy. They depend very heavily on a victim mentality that the Spanish government for some reason seems only too happy to play up to.

The sensible, and therefore utterly improbable, course of action would be for the Spanish parliament to agree a constitutional amendment that allows for the expression of secessionist opinion from autonomous communities within the kingdom. A nationwide referendum on the issue could thereby be held which could settle the question for good. In the unlikely event of the Catalan vote result being different from the national vote, a process of negotiation mediated by a supra-national body (EU, UN, Council of Europe) could take place.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

How about apologising for using a spelling of Catalan that no one uses? ;)

Andalublue:

Mea culpa! You have my apologies. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. Catalan not Catlan. There, I spelled it ten times as an honest act of contrition.

Cheers.
A more sheepish looking Evilroddy
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

So you are suddenly against the rule of law?

If it oppresses people from voting for independence? Certainly. If you want to talk about rights, taking away the right to self rule certainly overtakes all the rest. If, as you say, most oppose it, the government could help organize a get out the vote and squash it by showing how many do oppose it. The way they are going about it sparks people contrariness and move them towards independence.

A government that forgets that people mostly want to be left alone won't keep power for very long.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

This whole situation is as Chagos describes it: a perfect storm of corrupt, self-serving politicos who have no interest in addressing Spain's real economic and social issues. This stuff is so much more engaging than actual politics.

The Spanish government is making a huge mistake in the level of violence it is using to suppress the referendum; that's playing directly into the hands of the Catalan separatists who can now draw ever more convincing parallels with the behaviour of the dictatorship. The referendum may indeed contravene the Spanish constitution, but the overwhelming majority of Catalans who want to vote, many of whom are against independence, cannot be ignored. They want an existential, constitutional question answered and the constitution currently does not provide that answer. It should be the role of the central government to amend the constitution to facilitate the ability of the Catalan people to express their will. There's little doubt in my mind that they would vote to remain a part of Spain, and remain within the EU and its single market.

For their part the Catalan separatists are using every tactic of emotional blackmail to further their unilateral policy. They depend very heavily on a victim mentality that the Spanish government for some reason seems only too happy to play up to.

The sensible, and therefore utterly improbable, course of action would be for the Spanish parliament to agree a constitutional amendment that allows for the expression of secessionist opinion from autonomous communities within the kingdom. A nationwide referendum on the issue could thereby be held which could settle the question for good. In the unlikely event of the Catalan vote result being different from the national vote, a process of negotiation mediated by a supra-national body (EU, UN, Council of Europe) could take place.

Good input, thanks for the post Andalublue.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

This whole situation is as Chagos describes it: a perfect storm of corrupt, self-serving politicos who have no interest in addressing Spain's real economic and social issues. This stuff is so much more engaging than actual politics.

The Spanish government is making a huge mistake in the level of violence it is using to suppress the referendum; that's playing directly into the hands of the Catalan separatists who can now draw ever more convincing parallels with the behaviour of the dictatorship. The referendum may indeed contravene the Spanish constitution, but the overwhelming majority of Catalans who want to vote, many of whom are against independence, cannot be ignored. They want an existential, constitutional question answered and the constitution currently does not provide that answer. It should be the role of the central government to amend the constitution to facilitate the ability of the Catalan people to express their will. There's little doubt in my mind that they would vote to remain a part of Spain, and remain within the EU and its single market.

For their part the Catalan separatists are using every tactic of emotional blackmail to further their unilateral policy. They depend very heavily on a victim mentality that the Spanish government for some reason seems only too happy to play up to.

The sensible, and therefore utterly improbable, course of action would be for the Spanish parliament to agree a constitutional amendment that allows for the expression of secessionist opinion from autonomous communities within the kingdom. A nationwide referendum on the issue could thereby be held which could settle the question for good. In the unlikely event of the Catalan vote result being different from the national vote, a process of negotiation mediated by a supra-national body (EU, UN, Council of Europe) could take place.

I agree with most of this. The central government has handled this poorly, but lets be clear here. This whole thing is pretty much staged by the independence movement, who has been feeding the people of Catalonia with lie after lie for a long time, since they run the main TV station in Catalonia. Now you can accuse the government of the same with TVE btw, but at least the "lies" of the government are based on the law. The separatists have used the foreign media, especially the anglo media, to push their agenda and the anglo media has been eating it up as they love "civil war" idea.

A good example is Sky News.. very poor coverage. They had the balls to interview a freaking Israeli MP who was there on behalf of the Catalan government to oversee the vote. She had the balls to call it undemocratic behaviour.... Just now Sky News shows a guys polling card... dude, you are brining pre filled polling cards? That alone is illegal and against democracy. On top of that, it is illegal to show what you voted. The list of massive failures on the "democratic" and election part by the Catalan government is huge. Why no coverage of that?

Like it or not, this vote is illegal and even if the Spanish government had not done anything, and those opposed to independence would not have turned out because it was not legal. This would mean a massive yes, just as there was in Iraqi Kurdistan the other day. They have held these votes before and it has been a massive yes, on a small turnout..
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

If it oppresses people from voting for independence?

The vote is illegal. It is no different if Texas suddenly held a referendum on independence.. There is no legal base whatsoever to do that in the US. Or if Austin or Dallas wanted to leave Texas.. no legal basis to do so.

Certainly. If you want to talk about rights, taking away the right to self rule certainly overtakes all the rest.

No. Why? Because you and others use this as a political excuse. The right for self determination is a idea coming from the UN, when it relates to occupied areas and colonies. Catalonia is neither. And it is hilarious how the right of self determination is suddenly something American Conservatives push for, but deny the people of Palestine and others.. just because they are against them politically. You do know that the Madrid government are right wing and support your dear leader right?

If, as you say, most oppose it, the government could help organize a get out the vote and squash it by showing how many do oppose it. The way they are going about it sparks people contrariness and move them towards independence.

The PP government has royally ****ed this up, no doubt about that. However there is no legal ability at present in the Spanish constitution to hold such a referendum. That means one has to change the constitution and there is no backing for that in Parliament. The PP certainly dont want it, and most regions in Spain dont want it. The Socialists might be for the change, but they are not in power. In fact, who backs up the current government? A Catalonian anti-Independence party and two regional parties..

A government that forgets that people mostly want to be left alone won't keep power for very long.

Then vote them out. Starting a rebellion like this based mostly on lies, is counter productive.
 
Beating people in the streets because they want to vote on their future. Spanish are still fascists at heart.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

So you are suddenly against the rule of law?

If that law is miss-used then yes.

The none-legal nature of the vote does not make it illegal.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?


If that law is miss-used then yes.

The none-legal nature of the vote does not make it illegal.

How can a law be miss-used, when there is no legal ability in the constitution of Spain to hold such a referendum?

And the none-legal nature of the vote DOES make it illegal...
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?


From your lofty hyper knowing position why do you think the EU has an emotionally bad reception in the UK then?



So this means of course that goes for everyone else right? Texas, the Palestinians and so on .. right?

Yes. That is democracy for you.

Problem is that the Catalan government stated that if there was a positive vote, then they would be legally independent tomorrow.

Such statements by the Catalan government are not legal things. That they passed this law means that the Madrid govenment can annul the thing. Still need to respect the expressed wishes of the people though. They would have to hold a proper vote if there was a yes.

Doubt that. If anything it guarantees the death of the PP party in large parts of Spain.

If there becomes a situation where the Madrid govenment imposes it's will on Catalonia by force alone it will face legitimate fight back by force. Some scale of civil war. Madrid will lose the hearts and minds of it's own people very fast.

So you are basically against the concept of country and are an anarchist... /clap.

No. Again you show why the UK did not wish to fit into the EU mold.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

How can a law be miss-used, when there is no legal ability in the constitution of Spain to hold such a referendum?

And the none-legal nature of the vote DOES make it illegal...

It is legal for the govenment of North Korea to arrest anybody and enslave them at will. Does not mean that it is right.

It was legal for an aristocrat to kill any peasant that got in his way. Did not mak e it right.

Right and the will of the people are more legitimate than law and beauracracy.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

From your lofty hyper knowing position why do you think the EU has an emotionally bad reception in the UK then?

1) British Imperial Nationalism
2) Lies by the British print media
3) Inability or unwillingness of government to counter the lies, because the EU was and is a good "lets blame them for our mistakes" entity.

Yes. That is democracy for you.

And yet your lot does not support it..

Such statements by the Catalan government are not legal things. That they passed this law means that the Madrid govenment can annul the thing. Still need to respect the expressed wishes of the people though. They would have to hold a proper vote if there was a yes.

The law WAS annulled by the Catalan Supreme Court for **** sake. It is the Catalan Supreme Court that is sending the police out to stop the vote. Funny how no one mentions that eh?

If there becomes a situation where the Madrid govenment imposes it's will on Catalonia by force alone it will face legitimate fight back by force. Some scale of civil war. Madrid will lose the hearts and minds of it's own people very fast.

If Madrid wanted to impose its will, then it would send in the military and arrest the Catalan government.. it has not done that.

No. Again you show why the UK did not wish to fit into the EU mold.

What EU mold?
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

It is legal for the govenment of North Korea to arrest anybody and enslave them at will. Does not mean that it is right.

It was legal for an aristocrat to kill any peasant that got in his way. Did not mak e it right.

Right and the will of the people are more legitimate than law and beauracracy.

Wow wait a minute.. You are comparing a dictatorships to democracies? Seriously?

The right and will of the people is to take a knee in protest of institutional racism, and yet your lot want to thrown them under the bus. The hypocrisy is huge here.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

Wow wait a minute.. You are comparing a dictatorships to democracies? Seriously?

The right and will of the people is to take a knee in protest of institutional racism, and yet your lot want to thrown them under the bus. The hypocrisy is huge here.

I don't know who you think I am but I have no problem with American sports people kneeling as a sign of support for a better policing of the citizens of their nation.

I think it is an extremely respectful and effective silent, controled and mature way to protest.

And yes, any political group, in this case the body politic in Madrid, who ignores the will of any significant section of it's nation and surprsses it's reasonable demands (in this case to have a vote) is wholly out of order and is behaving as a dictatorship and is losing all the respect that a democracy has.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

The vote is illegal. It is no different if Texas suddenly held a referendum on independence.. There is no legal base whatsoever to do that in the US. Or if Austin or Dallas wanted to leave Texas.. no legal basis to do so.



No. Why? Because you and others use this as a political excuse. The right for self determination is a idea coming from the UN, when it relates to occupied areas and colonies. Catalonia is neither. And it is hilarious how the right of self determination is suddenly something American Conservatives push for, but deny the people of Palestine and others.. just because they are against them politically. You do know that the Madrid government are right wing and support your dear leader right?



The PP government has royally ****ed this up, no doubt about that. However there is no legal ability at present in the Spanish constitution to hold such a referendum. That means one has to change the constitution and there is no backing for that in Parliament. The PP certainly dont want it, and most regions in Spain dont want it. The Socialists might be for the change, but they are not in power. In fact, who backs up the current government? A Catalonian anti-Independence party and two regional parties..



Then vote them out. Starting a rebellion like this based mostly on lies, is counter productive.

I agree that a constitutional barrier to a binding referendum can't just be ignored. What about nonbinding plebiscite instead? It seems to me that the Spanish government is foolishly playing into the hands of the separatists as it is. Threats of violence never work against free people.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

I agree that a constitutional barrier to a binding referendum can't just be ignored. What about nonbinding plebiscite instead? It seems to me that the Spanish government is foolishly playing into the hands of the separatists as it is. Threats of violence never work against free people.

I dont disagree, but that is how the conservatives work in Spain.

For me the problem is on all sides.

The government under the PP has ignored the Catalans since they took power a decade or so ago. The PP and Catalan independence movement have history, going back to Franco. The Catalan independence movement is run by corrupt politicians who are using the independence movement to gain more power and to cover up their crimes.

The amount of lying on both sides is astounding and the media are complicit in it. TVE (state broadcaster) pushes the PP narrative, and TV3 in Barcelona pushes the Catalan independence narrative. Now the problem here is that especially TV3 pushes lies... for example, that an independent Catalonia would be automatically given EU membership.. not true, not even remotely true. On TVEs side, it is the leaving out of opinions that is the main problem.

If there is a silver lining, then that would be that the current PP government could fall on this, and a new election would be put in place. That can change the whole dynamic of the discussion, both in Catalonia, but across Spain. Most Spaniards I have talked to, are ashamed over how the government have acted, but also are highly critical of the Catalan independence movement.

All this could have been avoided in my opinion, if the referendum law had not included the "we are independent a day after a yes vote" wording... that basically triggered the PP/government.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

A catalan organisation opposing independence has proof that some people voted more than once... total chaos.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

There, I spelled it ten times as an honest act of contrition.

You forgot the three Hail Marys and two Our Fathers.
 
Re: Should Spain Forcefully Suppress the Catalan Independence Referendum?

A catalan organisation opposing independence has proof that some people voted more than once... total chaos.

You going all Donald Trump on our arses, Pete?
 
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