It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian Inv

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Top Ukrainian General Oleg Mikats admits who Ukraine is fighting against in South eastern Ukraine and it ain't the Russian Army

Ukrainian general admits the truth about Lugansk and Donetsk - Fort Russ

"Because fighting with Russia and fighting with the militia - are two different things."

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Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Of course Russia controls it. But what I don't get is, how come some of Russian-Ukranians (locals) became this hostile to Ukraine and Ukranian people. Everything was OK back in the day, say in 2010. Shaktar Donestk were winning titles and dominating the local competition in their home, no problem at all. Nobody was killing nobody. How suddenly these people became seperatists and want nothing but joining Russia?

Western Ukraine wanted close ties to EU, but then Russia's puppet president were for nothing but Russia's path. Crowd had every right to protest.

It turned out bloody because of police forces of the regime. If not, everything could have gone much softly.

Anyway, I am all for Ukrania's territorial integrity but if YOUR people turned against you because of Russian influence and together with local sepeatists, Russian soldiers occupied part of your country then I see no light at the end of tunnel. I am not an Ukranian so I can't speak for them but I would just get rid of separatist territories (let them go wherever they want) and start focusing my own land and build on and improve it.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

kaerin said:

Of course Russia controls it. But what I don't get is, how come some of Russian-Ukranians (locals) became this hostile to Ukraine and Ukranian people. Everything was OK back in the day, say in 2010. Shaktar Donestk were winning titles and dominating the local competition in their home, no problem at all. Nobody was killing nobody. How suddenly these people became seperatists and want nothing but joining Russia?

Western Ukraine wanted close ties to EU, but then Russia's puppet president were for nothing but Russia's path. Crowd had every right to protest.

It turned out bloody because of police forces of the regime. If not, everything could have gone much softly.

Anyway, I am all for Ukrania's territorial integrity but if YOUR people turned against you because of Russian influence and together with local sepeatists, Russian soldiers occupied part of your country then I see no light at the end of tunnel. I am not an Ukranian so I can't speak for them but I would just get rid of separatist territories (let them go wherever they want) and start focusing my own land and build on and improve it.

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Ukraine is not as simple as you think, Ukraine is like 2 countries into 1 the Western half has always had a dislike for Russians, and then their is the eastern half of the country that is predominantly Pro Russian as they are Ethnic Russians , that entire region minus Crimea was given to Ukraine by a soviet dictator Lenin in 1922 without the say of the population ... (Ukrainians have always hated Russia) and in 1954 Kruschev a ethnic Ukrainian born of few kilometres from Ukraine with a Ukrainian spouse gave Crimea to Ukraine against the peoples wishes over a million Russians died defending and retaking Crimea during WW2 .. (the port city of Sevastopol was founded by a Scottish Admiral Thomas Mackenzie in the service of the Russian Empire) the last two Presidents supported by the south Eastern region of Ukraine have been removed via a coup backed by the west .... why did South Eastern Ukraine rise up including cities like Kharkov , Odessa and Mariupol ... because yet again their president was removed from power and the rise of the neo nazis into the new illegal government (by Ukrainian law viktor yanukovych impeachment fell short by two votes) they banned Russian Language being spoken at Schools (in regions where over 90% spoke Russian) the massacres in Odessa and Mariupol a week apart sparked the uprising as well as sending troops towards ethnic Russian regions which sparked confrontations with the locals and the military they saw them as a occupying force not welcome as well as the banning of the two main South Eastern Ukrainian parties The Party of the Regions and the Communist Party ... so basically Kiev and the Maidan cru brought it on themselves .... 80% of Ukraine's trade was with Russia

the west basically backed a shower of nazi vermin to topple a democratically elected President of Ukraine made some of those nazis into the government and made WW2 Nazi war criminals national heroes ... this is the Ukraine you support

the area in pink was taken from South Western Russia in 1922 and given to Ukraine the people in that area still see themselves as being Russian



here is the image of how Ukraine voted in 2007 and in every elections except the phoney election of 2014 when the two main parties were banned



2010 election



NovoRossiya which includes Dnepropetrovsk which is more inclined to Russia than america and the EU ... because Ukraine (Kiev) went anti Russia their economy has collapsed

when you sign up to treaties you abide by them up and don't rip them up because all of a sudden you don't like the treaty ... that is what the nazis did

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Godric1970 said:

did Poroshenko include politicians of Svboda and members of the right sektor into his government guys like Dimitri Yarosh top jobs in the defence ministry

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Yarosh has been gone for well over a year. Do try and keep up.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Godric1970 said:

the west basically backed a shower of nazi vermin to topple a democratically elected President of Ukraine made some of those nazis into the government and made WW2 Nazi war criminals national heroes ... this is the Ukraine you support

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Lol. Ukrainians told Yanukovych/Putin to shove the Eurasian Economic Union (Putin's fake EU - Armenia/Belarus/Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan/Russia) up their collective asses and opted for membership in the European Union.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Rogue Valley said:

Lol. Ukrainians told Yanukovych/Putin to shove the Eurasian Economic Union (Putin's fake EU - Armenia/Belarus/Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan/Russia) up their collective asses and opted for membership in the European Union.

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Yanukovych chose Russia for a reason the EU deal was worth a fraction what Russia had offered as Ukraine produces very little what the EU needs ... how has that trade deal worked with the EU to date quotas reached within 2 months of a trading year .... their economy is in free fall and pensions heavily slashed

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Rogue Valley said:

Yarosh has been gone for well over a year. Do try and keep up.

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Yarosh and others member s of Svboda were included in the Ukrainian government ... then you had his clowns like shasko Bily on TV ranting and threatening people and storming into parliaments and council meetings pointing his AK47 in their faces with his nazi pals threatening local politicians to support Pravy Sektor

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Godric1970 said:

Yarosh and others member s of Svboda were included in the Ukrainian government ... then you had his clowns like shasko Bily on TV ranting and threatening people and storming into parliaments and council meetings pointing his AK47 in their faces with his nazi pals threatening local politicians to support Pravy Sektor

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You can't even spell it right lol. The few Svodoba members in government resigned when the Yatsenyuk government fell. Right Sector (Pravy Sektor) has no ministers or MPs in government. All Svoboda has these days is the mayoralty of the city of Ivano-Frankivsk. Since 2015, neither Svodoba nor Pravy Sektor have been able to satisfy the 5% vote threshold.

If you're going to discuss a country, as least know something about it besides what RT feeds you.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Rogue Valley said:

You can't even spell it right lol. The few Svodoba members in government resigned when the Yatsenyuk government fell. Right Sector (Pravy Sektor) has no ministers or MPs in government. All Svoboda has these days is the mayoralty of the city of Ivano-Frankivsk. Since 2015, neither Svodoba nor Pravy Sektor have been able to satisfy the 5% vote threshold.

If you're going to discuss a country, as least know something about it besides what RT feeds you.

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Dimity Yarosh was in Poroshenko's government as well as the ex leader of the Azov Battalion and most neutral players regard them as neo nazis

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Godric1970 said:

Dimity Yarosh was in Poroshenko's government as well as the ex leader of the Azov Battalion and most neutral players regard them as neo nazis

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I also regard them as neo-Nazis. However, it's sheer hyperbole to claim they were a [wanted] part of the Poroshenko government. No far-right groups have done well in Ukraine's post-Yanukovych elections. Yarosh resigned his Rada seat in 2015, and formed his own political party (DIYA) and is no longer affiliated with the shrinking Right Sector. For all practical purposes, he has disappeared from the political stage. In August of 2015, all volunteer militia units were removed from the Ukraine military chain of command and all funding ceased. Former Azov battalion members now run a summer camp for kids north of Mariupol.

The current 450 seat Verkhovna Rada is comprised of 10 political parties and 51 independent MPs with 27 vacancies. None are far-right/neo-Nazi. The next parliamentary elections will be in 2019.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian


LtCol Putin and LtGen Asapov

LtGen Valeriy Asapov of the 5th Russian Army (Eastern Military District/Ussuriysk) a commander of Russian task forces in Deir Ezzor and Raqqah provinces, was killed with his interpreter and 2 colonels in a mortar attack on HQ near Deir-Ezzur, Syria. LtGen Asapov was formally the Commander of the 1st Army Corps in occupied Donetsk, Ukraine. Asapov was being investigated for war crimes in eastern Ukraine and Syria.

My dear silovik и gopnik Asapov, burn in hell you bastard.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Alfons said:

Ukraine is a pure Nazi State which performs genocide on Russian Minority..

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well., who is your day in Olgino?





"Rabi Asher Cherkassky (right) has been fighting Russian alongside the rightish Ukraine nationalist"

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Rogue Valley said:

I was actually in the US military, so take your Putinista smugness and shove it.

When Russia invaded Ukraine in spring of 2014, there was virtually no Ukrainian military. Only 16,000 ill-trained troops could be mustered. Russia had 70,000 well trained troops sitting on the border waiting for the order to advance. So Ukrainian volunteers formed militia battalions. Some of these units were politically far to the right -- fascist/nationalists. Hundreds were massacred at the Donetsk Airport, Illovaiskaya, and Debaltseve. But they did help stop a full-on invasion by Russian forces until Ukraine could rebuild its military.

That was then. There are no longer any volunteer militia's fighting in the ATO (occupied eastern Ukraine). All volunteer militia battalions have been disbanded. Ukraine has had mandatory military conscription since mid-2015. Today there are ~185,000 active in the military plus 1,000,000 reserve personal. The Ukraine military is now ranked #30 out of 133 countries and is being trained by NATO advisors. Every country in Europe and the US has fascist/nationalist elements. That doesn't mean they run the country.

Which brings me to this. Below is an electoral map of the Ukraine presidential election of 25 May 2014. The deep maroon colored districts were captured by Petro Poroshenko who won the election in a landslide. Do you see that tiny yellow dot way to the left (West) by the Polish border? That is the sole district won by the far right nationalist candidate Oleh Tyahnybok. One fascist/nationalist Right Sector candidate (Dmytro Yarosh) was elected to the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament/450 seats). But he voluntarily gave up his seat in mid-2016 and hasn't been heard from since.

If I were you, I would endeavor to be a lot more discerning about the propaganda crap from Russian media and trolls you've been inhaling.

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Who paid for those ~185,000 active in the military plus 1,000,000 reserve personal ?
The Corporations with a stake in Ukrainian resources ? I don't think so.
I'm a business man in Canada, now retired since August 2017. I hoped for 5% interest rates on my savings. Banking bale outs, foreign military misadventures and maintaining a huge military industrial complex reduced this to 1.8 %.
I never agreed to bank bailouts, investing in ever more military infrastructure, hardware and military bases, that most of us can not even find on the map, just to contain a defiant China and Russia. I rather believe in peace and diplomacy.
It's cheaper. Why can't we all just get along ?
I do not know where you are coming from, I only know, that you acted on tax payers money, protecting the interest's of big Corporations, and that is not what I wanted.
What did you produce besides death, mayhem and hate ?

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Currywurst said:

Who paid for those ~185,000 active in the military plus 1,000,000 reserve personal ?
The Corporations with a stake in Ukrainian resources ? I don't think so.
I'm a business man in Canada, now retired since August 2017. I hoped for 5% interest rates on my savings. Banking bale outs, foreign military misadventures and maintaining a huge military industrial complex reduced this to 1.8 %.
I never agreed to bank bailouts, investing in ever more military infrastructure, hardware and military bases, that most of us can not even find on the map, just to contain a defiant China and Russia. I rather believe in peace and diplomacy.
It's cheaper. Why can't we all just get along ?
I do not know where you are coming from, I only know, that you acted on tax payers money, protecting the interest's of big Corporations, and that is not what I wanted.
What did you produce besides death, mayhem and hate ?

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If you've got a problem with any of Canada's contributions to foreign aid/military assistance, take it up with your elected government.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Rogue Valley said:

If you've got a problem with any of Canada's contributions to foreign aid/military assistance, take it up with your elected government.

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Right, I'm not a fan of pretty boy Justin.
He's more excited to help friends like Aga Khan, and perhaps an Ukranian lobby, but not so much for people of greater Canadiana.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Currywurst said:

Right, I'm not a fan of pretty boy Justin.
He's more excited to help friends like Aga Khan, and perhaps an Ukranian lobby, but not so much for people of greater Canadiana.

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As far as Europe is concerned, Trudeau is not much different than Harper.

Ukrainian lobby? lulz. There's a Canadian military platoon/troop of doctors in Ukraine teaching field-medics emergency triage and helievac techniques. A handful of RCMP helped train Ukraine's new National Police.

450 Canadian soldiers are currently in Latvia leading a combat battlegroup of soldiers from five other NATO countries: Italy, Spain, Poland, Slovenia and Albania.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

They are more than welcome to come home and help people in need here.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Currywurst said:

They are more than welcome to come home and help people in need here.

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Many join the military to help people in need, and they'll probably continue helping people when they come home.

Most soldiers are like that.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Rogue Valley said:

Many join the military to help people in need, and they'll probably continue helping people when they come home.

Most soldiers are like that.

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Did you ever wonder, why many Veterans feel disillusioned ?

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Currywurst said:

Did you ever wonder, why many Veterans feel disillusioned ?

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Currywurst:

Yup, militarists in Moscow, Kyiv, Washington Brussels, Berlin and sundry Europen capitals are at the root of these conflicts but they are also beyond the common person's reach to stop or constrain. The Ukraine debacle is a product of two political camps butting into each other. One is opportunistic Western political-economic expansion which has been running eastwards since 1989 and the other is opportunistic Russian Imperial preservation which has been resurgent and pushing southwards and westwards since the rise of Vladimir Putin. Ukraine is one of the state's caught in the middle of these two juggernauts.

The thesis of this thread is both partially true and partially false. There are Russian agents, contract-soldiers, Chechen mercenaries and Russian troops operating in the Donbass and Crimea. That is true. But there are also plenty of residents of Ukraine who are fighting against the Western-backed government of Kyiv. Both Ukrainian groups have valid reasons for doing what they're doing and even the Russians have valid reasons for their involvement. All sides in this struggle, both domestic and foreign, are using selective facts, disinformation and outright lies to explain and justify their acts and aspirations in Ukraine. That extends to posters here including me.

At the start of this mess, in 2013-2014, the Ukrainian armed forces was about 16,000- 18,000 strong with poorly trained and badly equipped troops. Russia had about 70,000 well trained and well equipped troops on or near the Ukrainian frontier. Russia, as Vladimir Putin later boasted, could have overrun the whole country, occupied it, Balkanized it, kept what it wanted and cast off the dregs to Europe in order to limit or to avoid dealing with a costly insurgency. But it did not. Instead Russia seized Crimea and annexed it. It also fostered uprising in the Donbass among aggrieved Russo-Ukrainians in order to embroil Ukraine in a crippling and costly insurgency.

Why? Ukraine unwisely threatened to end Russian use of the Crimea. The Crimea was of paramount strategic interest to Russian naval and military power projection and its seizure by force over-rode the promises made by Russia to respect Ukrainian territorial sovreignity in exchange for nuclear disarmament in Russian eyes. The Donbass was vulnerable and Russia used it to trigger a boundary dispute to block Ukrainian entry into the EU and NATO, which by these organisations' own rules do not allow admittance of states with ongoing border disputes into their ranks. Why is Russia building permanent military bases along the Russo-Ukrainian frontier? Not to invade. You don't need permanent bases from which to launch an invasion and Russia has plenty of established military depots near by Ukraine from which to supply such an invasion. You build permanent bases for defence. Why? The Ukrainian Army is now about 180,000 strong with further reserves of about 100,000 troops today. It is far better trained and far more experienced than it was in 2013-2014. That training is coming from NATO member states and from NATO itself. The Ukrainians are refurbishing their military kit and production capacity and are buying, on Western credit, NATO standard weapon systems.

Russia wanted a pro-Russian or at least a non-aligned Ukraine to act as a buffer between the West and Russia. It has now realised that's not going to happen and so is preparing a defence in depth against the eventual Ukrainian counter strike, likely backed up by Western military support. This is to buy time to both rebuild up Russian military forces capable of repelling Western attacks and to let things cool down to a new equilibrium where acceptance of a truncated Ukraine is possible. An opportunistic Vladimir Putin unwisely bit off more than Russia could chew by staging a limited invasion of Ukraine (instead of a full-scale one) and he is now trying to bulwark the south-western frontier from Ukrainian/European invasion in reaction. He is bleeding Ukraine in the Donbass in order waste Ukrainian resources so as to limit the speed of its rearmament and to block its entry into the European Union and NATO.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

I appreciate your elaborate Machiavelen response, thank you.

Evilroddy said:

Yup, militarists in Moscow, Kyiv, Washington Brussels,

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international corporation want to exploit the Ukraine, like they did Russia during the Yeltzin years.
Finding strawmen (the future Oligarchs) to sign over huge chunks of former soviet resource for bargain basement rates.
I believe they invested around $5 Billion to topple the democratic elected government of the Ukraine in 2014.
I believe Joe Biden jr got into possession of some mining, fracking, and factory titles.
What you call Washington is backing it up with further military aid and threats.
What did you expect Russia would do ? say "thank you" ?

Evilroddy said:

Berlin and sundry Europen capitals are at the root of these conflicts

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No, that is not quite true. Helmut Kohl promised Gorbachev that NATO and the EU would not expand into the former WP states.
THe US did not respect this verbal Gentleman's agreement, invested large amounts of money to start the color revolutions, and coerced the willing European politicians to play to a different script.
Lobby groups behind closed doors created even more consent.

Evilroddy said:

but they are also beyond the common person's reach to stop or constrain.

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Yes, and the media delivered the final punch, so large populous consent , guaranteed that not many questions where asked, and if, quickly marginalized.

Evilroddy said:

The Ukraine debacle is a product of two political camps butting into each other.

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The West does in my humble opinion not hold any moral high ground on this issue.

Evilroddy said:

One is opportunistic Western political-economic expansion which has been running eastwards since 1989 and

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I'm glad you acknowledge this fact.
the other is opportunistic Russian Imperial preservation which has been resurgent and pushing southwards and westwards since the rise of Vladimir Putin.
[/QUOTE]
I believe they have a legit concern to defend themselves, when their hemisphere is being threatened

Evilroddy said:

Ukraine is one of the state's caught in the middle of these two juggernauts.

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The juggernaut is in my humble eyes the opportunistic and imperial behaving West.
The state of Ukraine in my eyes a construct of the imperialistic west, making use of cultural animosities.

Evilroddy said:

The thesis of this thread is both partially true and partially false. There are Russian agents, contract-soldiers, Chechen mercenaries and Russian troops operating in the Donbass and Crimea. That is true.

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I'm not sure about the percentages of what is what, and I fester a deep mistrust of the western media.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Part 3

Evilroddy said:

But there are also plenty of residents of Ukraine who are fighting against the Western-backed government of Kyiv. Both Ukrainian groups have valid reasons for doing what they're doing and even the Russians have valid reasons for their involvement.

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Please help me to understand what you mean by "both" ?

Evilroddy said:

All sides in this struggle, both domestic and foreign, are using selective facts, disinformation and outright lies to explain and justify their acts and aspirations in Ukraine. That extends to posters here including me.

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Why do you assume, when the western media is quite or outright false in their reporting of the conflict, that the Russian use the same measures ?

Evilroddy said:

At the start of this mess, in 2013-2014, the Ukrainian armed forces was about 16,000- 18,000 strong with poorly trained and badly equipped troops.

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And yet, the "Deep State" had no scruples to use them for western gains.

Evilroddy said:

Russia had about 70,000 well trained and well equipped troops on or near the Ukrainian frontier. Russia, as Vladimir Putin later boasted, could have overrun the whole country, occupied it, Balkanized it, kept what it wanted and cast off the dregs to Europe in order to limit or to avoid dealing with a costly insurgency. But it did not. Instead Russia seized Crimea and annexed it.

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QUOTE=Evilroddy;1067690937]At the start of this mess, in 2013-2014, the Ukrainian armed forces was about 16,000- 18,000 strong with poorly trained and badly equipped troops. [/QUOTE]
And yet, the "Deep State" had no scruples to use them for western gains.

Evilroddy said:

Russia had about 70,000 well trained and well equipped troops on or near the Ukrainian frontier. Russia, as Vladimir Putin later boasted, could have overrun the whole country, occupied it, Balkanized it, kept what it wanted and cast off the dregs to Europe in order to limit or to avoid dealing with a costly insurgency. But it did not. Instead Russia seized Crimea and annexed it.

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Russia estimated that the bill would be passed on to the richer European states.It was largely the middle class who paid with their saving for the Ukrainian adventure, by getting less and less interest rates for their savings.Providing fringe parties with never seen before political gains.I'm not sure who will come out the winner.

Evilroddy said:

It also fostered uprising in the Donbass among aggrieved Russo-Ukrainians in order to embroil Ukraine in a crippling and costly insurgency.

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We will see, how long the western taxpayers are willing to pay those bills for the Ukrainian Oligarch power and their Deep state masters.Even moderate parties like the FDP with chairman Lindner of West Germany plead for an end to the sanctions against Russia and to use his own words, "putting the issue into a capsule".

Evilroddy said:

Why? Ukraine unwisely threatened to end Russian use of the Crimea. The Crimea was of paramount strategic interest to Russian naval and military power projection and its seizure by force over-rode the promises made by Russia to respect Ukrainian territorial sovreignity in exchange for nuclear disarmament in Russian eyes.

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Wesley Clark and Brezshinski where calculating with this issue long before the Ukrainian crisis (late 90's I believe) : We are gonna move one after the other "old soviet client state " into our sphere of interest, out of reach of Russia and China.Have you ever stumbled upon the phrase "Civilisation is reaching the end of history " ?

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Part 2

Evilroddy said:

The Donbass was vulnerable and Russia used it to trigger a boundary dispute to block Ukrainian entry into the EU and NATO, which by these organisations' own rules do not allow admittance of states with ongoing border disputes into their ranks. Why is Russia building permanent military bases along the Russo-Ukrainian frontier? Not to invade. You don't need permanent bases from which to launch an invasion and Russia has plenty of established military depots near by Ukraine from which to supply such an invasion. You build permanent bases for defence. Why? The Ukrainian Army is now about 180,000 strong with further reserves of about 100,000 troops today. It is far better trained and far more experienced than it was in 2013-2014. That training is coming from NATO member states and from NATO itself. The Ukrainians are refurbishing their military kit and production capacity and are buying, on Western credit, NATO standard weapon systems.

Russia wanted a pro-Russian or at least a non-aligned Ukraine to act as a buffer between the West and Russia. It has now realised that's not going to happen and so is preparing a defence in depth against the eventual Ukrainian counter strike, likely backed up by Western military support. This is to buy time to both rebuild up Russian military forces capable of repelling Western attacks and to let things cool down to a new equilibrium where acceptance of a truncated Ukraine is possible. An opportunistic Vladimir Putin unwisely bit off more than Russia could chew by staging a limited invasion of Ukraine (instead of a full-scale one) and he is now trying to bulwark the south-western frontier from Ukrainian/European invasion in reaction. He is bleeding Ukraine in the Donbass in order waste Ukrainian resources so as to limit the speed of its rearmament and to block its entry into the European Union and NATO.Cheers.Evilroddy.

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You forget, that the Ukrainian social problems are mounting, and I would not be so sure about the quality of what you mentioned.
The right wing sector has driven a lot of strife and discontent, creating many fractions, extremely hostile to each other, let see how that will play out in the future.
If the population is not being issued a huge Marshallplan size aid package, the Ukraine is gonna fracture.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Currywurst:

Please help me to understand what you mean by "both" ?

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Both the Ukranians fighting for Ukrainian territorial integrity and sovreignity and the Ukrainian residents who are fighting for eithe Novorossiya or annexation into Russia.

Why do you assume, when the western media is quite or outright false in their reporting of the conflict, that the Russian use the same measures?

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I have been following Soviet and later Russian media spin with some level of awareness since 1967-1968. This awareness was first sparked when, during the World's Fair at Expo'67, a younger more naive seven-and-a-half-year-old me, parroting concerns voiced privately by my parents, publicly asked several Soviet Pavilion guides about all the Russian history which was not on display in their pavilion. After persisting for awhile I was politely but firmly expelled from the pavilion with my embarrassed parents in tow. Yes, I was acting like a spoiled brat but their response was my first life lesson in the promotion of propaganda. Since then I have been following it and have learned that the Soviets/Russians are just as sophisticated and adept at shaping the narrative as their Western counterparts.

And yet, the "Deep State" had no scruples to use them for western gains.

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Scruples and realpolitik often are at logger-heads and when they are in opposition realpolitik often is dominant. This is true of both the West and Russia. A deep state need not have dominant influence over a manifest state for realpolitik to be followed in preference to societal ethics or personal morality. It happens all the time.

Have you ever stumbled upon the phrase "Civilisation is reaching the end of history " ?

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Not sure what specific citation you're alluding to here, Samuel Huntington, Francis Fukuyama, or someone else?

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Re: It's Time For Trump To Call Ukraine's 'Pro-Russian Rebels' What They Are: Russian

Currywurst said:

Part 2

You forget, that the Ukrainian social problems are mounting, and I would not be so sure about the quality of what you mentioned.
The right wing sector has driven a lot of strife and discontent, creating many fractions, extremely hostile to each other, let see how that will play out in the future.
If the population is not being issued a huge Marshallplan size aid package, the Ukraine is gonna fracture.

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Currywurst:

Too often cynical leaders facing privation and political fragmentation at home turn to war abroad to distract corral and even eliminate opposition under the aegis of national emergency. So it is not inconceivable that the Kyiv government would prefer to roll the dice on conventional or hybrid war with Russia over accepting domestic collapse and political suicide. Heck, Vladimir Putin has played a more mild game of that strategy for much of his political career as President/Prime Minister.

Cheers.
Evilroddy