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Why are there Islamic Terror attacks in Europe? [W:208]

X Factor

X Factor

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

Hmmm. WAPO tells me I have to subscribe to see it. Is this something new?
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

Because, to uneducated Jihadis, it's all "The West", and Europe is a far easier target than the US. Not to mention many European nations have been beside America in mot of the things you mentioned.
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

Uh...why do Islamic Terrorists tend to attack Muslims, in Muslim run/dominated countries, far more than they attack anyone else?

Kinda like crapping on your own living room carpet isn't it?
 
Dragonfly said:
Uh...why do Islamic Terrorists tend to attack Muslims, in Muslim run/dominated countries, far more than they attack anyone else?

Kinda like crapping on your own living room carpet isn't it?
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There are many different factions in Islam. Sunni/Shiite are two that come to mind. I don't think they much care for each other. The entire Arabic world has always been very much tribal and not much love lost between the individual tribes.
 
Rexedgar said:
There are many different factions in Islam. Sunni/Shiite are two that come to mind. I don't think they much care for each other. The entire Arabic world has always been very much tribal and not much love lost between the individual tribes.
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My point was more like this:

If they won't discriminate between different factions/groups of Muslims even in their own towns/countries, why on Earth would they discriminate between western allies in Europe?
 
Dragonfly said:
Uh...why do Islamic Terrorists tend to attack Muslims, in Muslim run/dominated countries, far more than they attack anyone else?

Kinda like crapping on your own living room carpet isn't it?
Click to expand...
Because Muslims aren’t a singular amorphous blob but millions of distinct and varied individuals.

Why did Catholics and Protestants wage war across Europe for over a century? Why are Americans fighting and killing each other on the streets of Charlottesville? Why does so much person violence occur in private homes between family members? Muslims are basically the same kind of flawed and messed up human beings as the rest of us.
 
HonestJoe said:
Because Muslims aren’t a singular amorphous blob but millions of distinct and varied individuals.

Why did Catholics and Protestants wage war across Europe for over a century? Why are Americans fighting and killing each other on the streets of Charlottesville? Why does so much person violence occur in private homes between family members? Muslims are basically the same kind of flawed and messed up human beings as the rest of us.
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So, you should probably be answering the OP. Not me. :mrgreen:
 
I know Germans who are not so big fans of America because, they blame us for the refugee crisis in Europe and specifically, Germany.
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

Sayyid Qutb, Zawahiri, etc. they preach/preached radical Islam. Qutb was martyred. His is the ultimate glory story to a jihadi. And Qutb is probably the "father" of modern radical Islam. Anyway, these guys existed long before the Iraq War and long before ISIS. They were saying death to infidels long before Bush ever assumed office.

So, the presence has been long established.

However, nowadays.. does it make ISIS propaganda more or less effective to have an American president who is an Islamaphobe? Does it make ISIS propaganda more or less effective to have an American policy targeting Syrians, Iranians, etc. Does it make ISIS propaganda more or less effective to participate in the wholesale slaughter of the Yemeni people? Whose humanitarian crisis is indeed greater than the Syrian one currently?

There's always been a Sayyid Qutb out there saying death to infidels. But, American involvement in the ME has consistently caused more and more people to pay attention to the Qutb's of the world. Iranians ask themselves, why did the CIA overthrow Iranian Democracy in the 50's, leading the Ayatollah to take the reins and usher in right wing theocracy? Why did the CIA overthrow the Syrian democracy in the 50's? Why did America topple Saddam Hussein and set the table for ISIS? Why did America kill Gaddafi in Libya? They aren't buying the "Spreading freedom around the world" line of bull and neither should you.

So, Middle Easterners are asking these questions, which are indeed valid questions. Why does America do these things? And the radicals give them an easy answer.. "America hates you."
 
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I just saw my reply had more to do with America, and this is in the European forum. sorry, guys, it's too early for me.

But, I think spud_meister pretty much nailed it.

I'll just add that it was a NATO coalition in Libya.
 
Winston said:
I know Germans who are not so big fans of America because, they blame us for the refugee crisis in Europe and specifically, Germany.
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What's the rationale?
 
Well Europeans were the original imperialistic powers in the Middle East and continue to support the US, including multiple European countries bombing ISIS. The countries we consider to be the Middle East today only exist because of the British and the French and never took into account ethnic or religious divisions.
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

The great Jihad is an us vs. them deal which is why most of its victims are Muslims that do not 'get it' that ISIS is rightfully in charge of all things worldwide according to (the only correct interpretation of) the wishes of Allah.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The great Jihad is an us vs. them deal which is why most of its victims are Muslims that do not 'get it' that ISIS is rightfully in charge of all things worldwide according to (the only correct interpretation of) the wishes of Allah.
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The great jihad is a largely fictional Western/American invention to excuse bombing the crap out of the Muslims we don't happen to be selling weapons to at the moment.
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

Civilians are unarmed and disempowered. "When seconds count, run like hell, then call the cops, and run farther away. Above all, do not take personal initiative. "It's not Europe like"."
 
Manc Skipper said:
The great jihad is a largely fictional Western/American invention to excuse bombing the crap out of the Muslims we don't happen to be selling weapons to at the moment.
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Yep, just look at the centuries of peace and prosperity throughout the Muslim world before the evil west started interfering. ;)
 
Addressing grievances (real or imagined) doesn't always consist of exclusively concentrating on the biggest scoundrel (real or imagined, again).

It's more a matter of opportunity.

As 9/11 should show both in presenting the most promising so far, as well as having given rise to decreasing opportunity as much as possible ever since.

When the disgruntled are more happy about lashing out than about discerning who is the most deserving (again, real or imagined), going utterly indiscriminate is hardly a novelty.

In the context of which the idea of seeing Europe as some nation like the US is highly misleading.

As such Islamic terror in France may appear totally the same as that in Spain, Germany or UK (to name just those), yet has a completely different background and generally speaking (exceptions serving to confirm the rule) a completely different set of perps (culturally). Which can be said for most European countries and let's not even start on Russia.

That the lines between motivations of Islamic terror groups will blur goes without saying and is the stated goal of IS.

Apart from all of which the geography favors Europe (both East and West) opportunity-wise over the US when it comes to accessibility. Where one can walk all the way from Syia or Iraq to France (hurdles notwithstanding), swimming the Atlantic is a bit of a drag.

And as far as recruiting the local help (i.e. Muslims already in sitio), it'll generally depend on the level of disenchantment the more promising cases feel in their particular society of dwelling. As such France probably leads the way in Western Europe (at least), in providing its Maghreb immigrants with the greatest amount of frustration.

A factor that is of course (or potentially will be) exacerbated by the number of Muslims already within a given society.

Nevertheless, to address the issue of "integration", France has less Muslims than UK, but has suffered far more Islamic terror attacks than the latter and also shows a higher fatality number caused. And where Germany has around a quarter less than France, she kind of of fades completely into the background (statistically speaking) when it comes to actual victims.

That Spain ranges high on the list is basically due to 1 (one) notable attack of meanwhile 13 years ago, where the perps managed to kill over 190. There have been single incidents since (often foiled) but none of such magnitude.

And even the London subway bombings of twelve years ago still show double the number of casualties of the recent Manchester tragedy.

Of course such "numbers games" may please statisticians more than they serve as a basis for drawing salient conclusions. It's just that speaking of "Europe" as such an amorphous entity as one wishes to make "Muslims" as being is not at all helpful.

It's already been aptly (and thankfully) addressed that the highest number of victims of Islamic terrorism occurs far, far away among the very Muslims themselves.
 
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Chagos said:
Addressing grievances (real or imagined) doesn't always consist of exclusively concentrating on the biggest scoundrel (real or imagined, again).

It's more a matter of opportunity.

As 9/11 should show both in presenting the most promising so far, as well as having given rise to decreasing opportunity as much as possible ever since.

When the disgruntled are more happy about lashing out than about discerning who is the most deserving (again, real or imagined), going utterly indiscriminate is hardly a novelty.

In the context of which the idea of seeing Europe as some nation like the US is highly misleading.

As such Islamic terror in France may appear totally the same as that in Spain, Germany or UK (to name just those), yet has a completely different background and generally speaking (exceptions serving to confirm the rule) a completely different set of perps (culturally). Which can be said for most European countries and let's not even start on Russia.

That the lines between motivations of Islamic terror groups will blur goes without saying and is the stated goal of IS.

Apart from all of which the geography favors Europe (both East and West) opportunity-wise over the US when it comes to accessibility. Where one can walk all the way from Syia or Iraq to France (hurdles notwithstanding), swimming the Atlantic is a bit of a drag.

And as far as recruiting the local help (i.e. Muslims already in sitio), it'll generally depend on the level of disenchantment the more promising cases feel in their particular society of dwelling. As such France probably leads the way in Western Europe (at least), in providing its Maghreb immigrants with the greatest amount of frustration.

A factor that is of course (or potentially will be) exacerbated by the number of Muslims already within a given society.

Nevertheless, to address the issue of "integration", France has less Muslims than UK, but has suffered far more Islamic terror attacks than the latter and also shows a higher fatality number caused. And where Germany has around a quarter less than France, she kind of of fades completely into the background (statistically speaking) when it comes to actual victims.

That Spain ranges high on the list is basically due to 1 (one) notable attack of meanwhile 13 years ago, where the perps managed to kill over 190. There have been single incidents since (often foiled) but none of such magnitude.

And even the London subway bombings of twelve years ago still show double the number of casualties of the recent Manchester tragedy.

Of course such "numbers games" may please statisticians more than they serve as a basis for drawing salient conclusions. It's just that speaking of "Europe" as such an amorphous entity as one wishes to make "Muslims" as being is not at all helpful.

It's already been aptly (and thankfully) addressed that the highest number of victims of Islamic terrorism occurs far, far away among the very Muslims themselves.
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A shout out to chagos for understanding the the differences of terrorists from cultures and places
They don't all speak Arabic. In fact, some of them speak English.

In free societies, terrorism will always be inherently easier. ISIS was a top 3 issue of the election and they are finally losing in Syria
There's the Taliban gaining again in Afghanistan. Alqeida in the Arabian peninsula. Let's not forget state sponsored terrorism from our own allies such as Qatar, Pakistan, and even Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Isreal.

And then we have our own homegrown terrorists. We can expect an attack inside the US of the copycat variety probably. Even the radicals on the left--- I mean the real radicals on the left. And there are. Soft targets are most likey. Wish we had a competent president to lead us thru this. Peace out[emoji41]


Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
Chagos said:
Addressing grievances (real or imagined) doesn't always consist of exclusively concentrating on the biggest scoundrel (real or imagined, again).

It's more a matter of opportunity.

As 9/11 should show both in presenting the most promising so far, as well as having given rise to decreasing opportunity as much as possible ever since.

When the disgruntled are more happy about lashing out than about discerning who is the most deserving (again, real or imagined), going utterly indiscriminate is hardly a novelty.

In the context of which the idea of seeing Europe as some nation like the US is highly misleading.

As such Islamic terror in France may appear totally the same as that in Spain, Germany or UK (to name just those), yet has a completely different background and generally speaking (exceptions serving to confirm the rule) a completely different set of perps (culturally). Which can be said for most European countries and let's not even start on Russia.

That the lines between motivations of Islamic terror groups will blur goes without saying and is the stated goal of IS.

Apart from all of which the geography favors Europe (both East and West) opportunity-wise over the US when it comes to accessibility. Where one can walk all the way from Syia or Iraq to France (hurdles notwithstanding), swimming the Atlantic is a bit of a drag.

And as far as recruiting the local help (i.e. Muslims already in sitio), it'll generally depend on the level of disenchantment the more promising cases feel in their particular society of dwelling. As such France probably leads the way in Western Europe (at least), in providing its Maghreb immigrants with the greatest amount of frustration.

A factor that is of course (or potentially will be) exacerbated by the number of Muslims already within a given society.

Nevertheless, to address the issue of "integration", France has less Muslims than UK, but has suffered far more Islamic terror attacks than the latter and also shows a higher fatality number caused. And where Germany has around a quarter less than France, she kind of of fades completely into the background (statistically speaking) when it comes to actual victims.

That Spain ranges high on the list is basically due to 1 (one) notable attack of meanwhile 13 years ago, where the perps managed to kill over 190. There have been single incidents since (often foiled) but none of such magnitude.

And even the London subway bombings of twelve years ago still show double the number of casualties of the recent Manchester tragedy.

Of course such "numbers games" may please statisticians more than they serve as a basis for drawing salient conclusions. It's just that speaking of "Europe" as such an amorphous entity as one wishes to make "Muslims" as being is not at all helpful.

It's already been aptly (and thankfully) addressed that the highest number of victims of Islamic terrorism occurs far, far away among the very Muslims themselves.
Click to expand...


And who or what is responsible for that?
 
X Factor said:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/a-history-of-terrorism-in-europe/

I've seen it argued that Islamic terrorism occurs in the US largely because of things like the Syrian refugee crisis, our support for Israel, our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that things like our travel ban makes recruitment of terrorists easier. That all doesn't apply to Europe, though, so what is the reason Europe, do you think, stil gets targeted for terrorism?
Click to expand...

It's complex. To name a few...

1. Muslims are less well-integrated in Europe than America, due to the focus on increasingly dense and expensive cities, and comparably less focus on outlying or peripheral areas. This impacts all Europeans, frankly, but especially immigrants, who usually can't afford dense city propers. Those areas on the fringes are not as well-supported as suburbs in America, so these communities become increasingly isolated and economically abandoned.

2. Most Islamist terrorists in Europe are actually second generation, not brand new immigrants. One possible reason for this is that there is a conflict between the old culture of their parents (who never properly integrated), and the new culture they see around them. They have a lot of conflicts about right and wrong, and aren't accepted in either world; too pious for their peers, and too Western for their parents. They can't participate fully in either one without facing scorn, which leads to a lot of guilt or frustration.

3. Economic opportunities are often scant -- another reason for alienation.

...Lots more.

The reality is, America actually isn't as vulnerable to Islamic extremism even if they had just as many Muslims. The geopolitical factors are just different.

Having myself lived in an American city with a TON of Muslim immigrants, I can vouch that they were better integrated than most European Muslim communities I've seen. And unsurprisingly, American Muslim immigrants are dramatically less likely to be radicalized than European ones.

At the end of the day, radicalization really doesn't have anything to do with politics. It as to do with vulnerability and lack of access to mainstream society.
 
coldjoint said:
And who or what is responsible for that?
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You think I'm even remotely going to discuss any of this with the likes of YOU?

Truncate whole efforts being made by others, like you did here, and you can go talk to yourself.
 
Chagos said:
You think I'm even remotely going to discuss any of this with the likes of YOU?

Truncate whole efforts being made by others, like you did here, and you can go talk to yourself.
Click to expand...

Who is responsible for all that killing? Pretty simple question. It only has one answer.:lamo
 
coldjoint said:
Who is responsible for all that killing? Pretty simple question. It only has one answer.:lamo
Click to expand...
You think I'm even remotely going to discuss any of this with the likes of YOU?

Truncate whole efforts being made by others, like you did here, and you can go talk to yourself.
 
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