Poland risking trouble with the EU

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

An independent judiciary is one of the most important things in a democracy, and the Polish right wing government has taken it upon itself to embrace and approve a law which gives the government influence in the judicial process and which would make the judiciary no longer independent and be at risk of politicizing the judicial process.

Now the law has been approved by both the congress and the senate in Poland, the law now finds itself on the desk of Polish president to sign.

In what is a highly ironic name, the ruling Law and Justice party wants to end the justice in Poland by making the judiciary come under review from political forces/politicians. Something that is highly undesirable in any way shape or form.

The country now risks serious sanctions from the EU for their actions to politicize the judiciary. Large demonstrations have already been happening in Poland against the law and there are many critics at home and abroad. Germany is very uneasy with this turn of events saying that it will lead to a "politically controlled judiciary, in which compliant judges are guided like puppets."

Meanwhile the EU has said that they might trigger an article 7 procedure against the Poles. This article 7 is a sanction law which is in place for when countries make laws/decisions that are: "serious and persistent violations" of the EU treaty's fundamental values. Should the procedure pass, it would mean that Poland looses it's voting rights in the EU.

Well, this is going to get interesting because the Polish president now has a thinking time of 21 days before he must either sign the law or decide to refuse to sign the law.

Mac77 · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
An independent judiciary is one of the most important things in a democracy, and the Polish right wing government has taken it upon itself to embrace and approve a law which gives the government influence in the judicial process and which would make the judiciary no longer independent and be at risk of politicizing the judicial process.

Now the law has been approved by both the congress and the senate in Poland, the law now finds itself on the desk of Polish president to sign.

In what is a highly ironic name, the ruling Law and Justice party wants to end the justice in Poland by making the judiciary come under review from political forces/politicians. Something that is highly undesirable in any way shape or form.

The country now risks serious sanctions from the EU for their actions to politicize the judiciary. Large demonstrations have already been happening in Poland against the law and there are many critics at home and abroad. Germany is very uneasy with this turn of events saying that it will lead to a "politically controlled judiciary, in which compliant judges are guided like puppets."

Meanwhile the EU has said that they might trigger an article 7 procedure against the Poles. This article 7 is a sanction law which is in place for when countries make laws/decisions that are: "serious and persistent violations" of the EU treaty's fundamental values. Should the procedure pass, it would mean that Poland looses it's voting rights in the EU.

Well, this is going to get interesting because the Polish president now has a thinking time of 21 days before he must either sign the law or decide to refuse to sign the law.

Let me get this straight

A democratically elected house and senate pass a law with majority support that statist liberals in the EU claim is undemocratic?

The polish law does not force lefty countries in the EU to comply with it or interfer with Germany in any way

The undemocrats are the liberals outside of poland trying to dictate polish policy

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Mac77 said:
Let me get this straight

A democratically elected house and senate pass a law with majority support that statist liberals in the EU claim is undemocratic?

The polish law does not force lefty countries in the EU to comply with it or interfer with Germany in any way

The undemocrats are the liberals outside of poland trying to dictate polish policy

Except an independent judiciary is one of the core values of the EU. Period.

If a democratically elected house and senate pass a highly undemocratic and dubious law, the EU has no choice but to take a stand against that country.

The Polish law breaks the EU principles and cannot be left unpunished and I fully applaud that decision by the EU.

Also the EU is not undemocratic at all.

Mac77 · Jul 22, 2017

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/07/20/poland-draft-law-threatens-supreme-court

I see nothing wrong with what poland wants to do

The law would make federal judges appointed instead of electecd just as we do in the US

And put a term limit on them at age 65

Thats a very good idea that I wish we had in America

Mac77 · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Except an independent judiciary is one of the core values of the EU. Period.

If a democratically elected house and senate pass a highly undemocratic and dubious law, the EU has no choice but to take a stand against that country.

The Polish law breaks the EU principles and cannot be left unpunished and I fully applaud that decision by the EU.

Also the EU is not undemocratic at all.

screw EU principles

Poland is an independent counrty

Its laws used to written in moscow and now they have to be be approved in Berlin or brussels instead?

That is very undemocratic

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Mac77 said:
screw EU principles

Poland is an independent counrty

Its laws used to reviewed in moscow and now they have to be be approved in Berlin or brussels instead?

That is very undemocratic

Yeah but that is bull, Poland is part of the EU and has to abide by those laws and rules and if they do not do that they have to be punished.

The do not need to be approved, Poland can make the laws in principle that it wants and the EU has the freedom to punish Poland for those decisions.

And it is not undemocratic. The EU has a parliament and laws/rules democratically chosen (by EU parliament and the leaders of all EU countries).

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Mac77 said:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/07/20/poland-draft-law-threatens-supreme-court

I see nothing wrong with what poland wants to do

The law would make federal judges appointed instead of electecd just as we do in the US

And put a term limit on them at age 65

Thats a very good idea that I wish we had in America

It would make the judiciary no longer independent and a tool for ill willing politicians. That is what is wrong with it.

And election judges is just plain wrong, pure and simple.

And you do not need to politicize judges if you want to make an age limit, just make an age limit.

Excon · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Yeah but that is bull, Poland is part of the EU and has to abide by those laws and rules and if they do not do that they have to be punished.

The do not need to be approved, Poland can make the laws in principle that it wants and the EU has the freedom to punish Poland for those decisions.

And it is not undemocratic. The EU has a parliament and laws/rules democratically chosen (by EU parliament and the leaders of all EU countries).

So what you are saying is that the EU is going against the democratic will of the people of Poland.

Mac77 · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Yeah but that is bull, Poland is part of the EU and has to abide by those laws and rules and if they do not do that they have to be punished.

The do not need to be approved, Poland can make the laws in principle that it wants and the EU has the freedom to punish Poland for those decisions.

And it is not undemocratic. The EU has a parliament and laws/rules democratically chosen (by EU parliament and the leaders of all EU countries).

I agree that if the EU is set up as a fascist dictatorship then all the member states are at the mercy of the collective

But that does not save the EU from being an undemocratic organization which it clearly is

Mac77 · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
It would make the judiciary no longer independent and a tool for ill willing politicians. That is what is wrong with it.

And election judges is just plain wrong, pure and simple.

And you do not need to politicize judges if you want to make an age limit, just make an age limit.

Either you elect the judges which is political or you appoint them which is also political

That sounds like a tossup to me

But term limiting the judges is an excellent idea

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Excon said:
So what you are saying is that the EU is going against the democratic will of the people of Poland.

Yup, when it breaks our laws the EU will punish the rule breakers and good for them.

Excon · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Yup, when it breaks our laws the EU will punish the rule breakers and good for them.

Our laws. Doh! iLOL

Thank you for showing why the EU should be abandoned.
It should have no business interfering with the internal running of a Country.

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Mac77 said:
I agree that if the EU is set up as a fascist dictatorship then all the member states are at the mercy of the collective

But that does not save the EU from being an undemocratic organization which it clearly is

Nonsense, nothing fascist at all. Could it be more democratic, sure but that goes for most everything. And the member states made that collective decision and thus there is nothing undemocratic about that because those decisions have been made in a democratic fashion.

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Mac77 said:
Either you elect the judges which is political or you appoint them which is also political

That sounds like a tossup to me

But term limiting the judges is an excellent idea

Neither option is acceptable, politicians should not interfere in the appointing of judges.

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Excon said:
Our laws. Doh! iLOL

Thank you for showing why the EU should be abandoned.
It should have no business interfering with the internal running of a Country.

Yup our laws. And the EU should not be abandoned because it is a very good institution.

And it should very much have the duty to protect the rule of law in the EU.

Excon · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Yup our laws.

Again, thank you for demonstrating a problem with the EU.

Peter King said:
And the EU should not be abandoned because it is a very good institution.

Your opinion is noted and dismissed as being biased.

Peter King said:
And it should very much have the duty to protect the rule of law in the EU.

And Poland should very much have the right and duty to protect it's democratic decisions in it's own country.

Oborosen · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
An independent judiciary is one of the most important things in a democracy, and the Polish right wing government has taken it upon itself to embrace and approve a law which gives the government influence in the judicial process and which would make the judiciary no longer independent and be at risk of politicizing the judicial process.

Now the law has been approved by both the congress and the senate in Poland, the law now finds itself on the desk of Polish president to sign.

In what is a highly ironic name, the ruling Law and Justice party wants to end the justice in Poland by making the judiciary come under review from political forces/politicians. Something that is highly undesirable in any way shape or form.

The country now risks serious sanctions from the EU for their actions to politicize the judiciary. Large demonstrations have already been happening in Poland against the law and there are many critics at home and abroad. Germany is very uneasy with this turn of events saying that it will lead to a "politically controlled judiciary, in which compliant judges are guided like puppets."

Meanwhile the EU has said that they might trigger an article 7 procedure against the Poles. This article 7 is a sanction law which is in place for when countries make laws/decisions that are: "serious and persistent violations" of the EU treaty's fundamental values. Should the procedure pass, it would mean that Poland looses it's voting rights in the EU.

Well, this is going to get interesting because the Polish president now has a thinking time of 21 days before he must either sign the law or decide to refuse to sign the law.

Okay I would like to say that Poland has more than enough on its place, especially with the migrant crisis, not to mention several of their anti "slander" actions that are pretty much turning their more tech savvy population against their ruling body. This is just going to be another piece of what could be one of the worse sh*t pies that country has had to deal with in a long time.

Losing their voting rights in the UE on the other hand is a laughable thought, such power is just for political show, and I have watched vote after vote go through with them. Only for the main body to ask for a re-vote until they get the desired answer, or even just decide to ignore the vote all together, with little to no repercussions.

Still the law is a horrible move in some cases, and a good move in others. However at his point it is rather hit on miss, on deciding just how it is going to be in the long run. Some would be more for the speed at which the changes in the judicial process could be handled. Others are just honestly not happy about the oversight that the government is going to be given in the end.

As with all political actions, or courses.

You can't make everyone happy.

PeteEU · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Neither option is acceptable, politicians should not interfere in the appointing of judges.

Yes and no.

Denmark also appoints judges, as does many other countries. However the politicians dont appoint them, but an independent panel made up of representatives from the political establishment, the judicial establishment, unions (I think) and the average person.

The problem with Poland and its clearly fascist government, is that they are removing the checks and balances in the country and becoming the ones that make the law and the ones that interpret the laws. It is a classic fascist move.

For our American friends.. it would be the same if all judges were appointed by the government in charge and that government also made all the laws. So for example, Trump comes to power, he replaces all SC judges with his people, as well as all the other federal courts and tells them how to make their rulings based on his views and not the law it self.. There is zero checks and balances, and you have a defacto dictatorship. That is what is happening in Poland and has happened to a degree in Hungary. The next step in Poland is that the government starts to take over media and banning media.. that is what happened in Hungary. Then they rewrite the constitution and election rules so that they never lose the majority. Is it the will of the people? No, because they are never asked after they have elected them the first time. Who did this trick? Adolf Hitler.

Also the EU is far more democratic than many of its detractors. Problem with the detractors, is that they dont know or refuse to understand how the EU actually works.

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Excon said:
Again, thank you for demonstrating a problem with the EU.

Yeah, thank you for your opinion but there is no problem with the EU

Excon said:
Your opinion is noted and dismissed as being biased.

Your opinion is noted and dismissed as irrelevant.

Excon said:
And Poland should very much have the right and duty to protect it's democratic decisions in it's own country.

Nope, not if it breaks the rules they have to comply with.

joG · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
An independent judiciary is one of the most important things in a democracy, and the Polish right wing government has taken it upon itself to embrace and approve a law which gives the government influence in the judicial process and which would make the judiciary no longer independent and be at risk of politicizing the judicial process.

Now the law has been approved by both the congress and the senate in Poland, the law now finds itself on the desk of Polish president to sign.

In what is a highly ironic name, the ruling Law and Justice party wants to end the justice in Poland by making the judiciary come under review from political forces/politicians. Something that is highly undesirable in any way shape or form.

The country now risks serious sanctions from the EU for their actions to politicize the judiciary. Large demonstrations have already been happening in Poland against the law and there are many critics at home and abroad. Germany is very uneasy with this turn of events saying that it will lead to a "politically controlled judiciary, in which compliant judges are guided like puppets."

Meanwhile the EU has said that they might trigger an article 7 procedure against the Poles. This article 7 is a sanction law which is in place for when countries make laws/decisions that are: "serious and persistent violations" of the EU treaty's fundamental values. Should the procedure pass, it would mean that Poland looses it's voting rights in the EU.

Well, this is going to get interesting because the Polish president now has a thinking time of 21 days before he must either sign the law or decide to refuse to sign the law.

Admittedly, I have not read the new law and cannot really speak for or against the change, but it has reached a level of agitation here in Europe that I think I will see if I can find an English, French or German translation. I am curious about the case now.

But it is a general question also. You are quite right that the Judiciary is one of the three powers generally required to be independent of each other for rule of law democracy. There are a variety of criteria of qualifications, the social groups from which its members are chosen and the methods of electing them or tenure that differ greatly from country to country. Without a close look, it is hard to tell how independent the Judiciary or the other powers are or how "inbred".

What is ironic, however, is the excitement by countries with systems that do not even attempt to separate their Legislative and Excecutive and have bare fig leaves to cover the extent media dependence of government, dominance of parliament etc.

Peter King · Jul 22, 2017

Oborosen said:
Okay I would like to say that Poland has more than enough on its place, especially with the migrant crisis, not to mention several of their anti "slander" actions that are pretty much turning their more tech savvy population against their ruling body. This is just going to be another piece of what could be one of the worse sh*t pies that country has had to deal with in a long time.

Losing their voting rights in the UE on the other hand is a laughable thought, such power is just for political show, and I have watched vote after vote go through with them. Only for the main body to ask for a re-vote until they get the desired answer, or even just decide to ignore the vote all together, with little to no repercussions.

Still the law is a horrible move in some cases, and a good move in others. However at his point it is rather hit on miss, on deciding just how it is going to be in the long run. Some would be more for the speed at which the changes in the judicial process could be handled. Others are just honestly not happy about the oversight that the government is going to be given in the end.

As with all political actions, or courses.

You can't make everyone happy.

No, it is very important, both in the symbolic manner but also because they will no longer have a voice when EU laws and decisions will be made.

And I think an independent judiciary is highly important and if a country tries to do away with that, the EU has to stand up for the rights of Polish people to have the protection of an unbiased and independent judiciary.

Harry Guerrilla · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
An independent judiciary is one of the most important things in a democracy, and the Polish right wing government has taken it upon itself to embrace and approve a law which gives the government influence in the judicial process and which would make the judiciary no longer independent and be at risk of politicizing the judicial process.

Now the law has been approved by both the congress and the senate in Poland, the law now finds itself on the desk of Polish president to sign.

In what is a highly ironic name, the ruling Law and Justice party wants to end the justice in Poland by making the judiciary come under review from political forces/politicians. Something that is highly undesirable in any way shape or form.

The country now risks serious sanctions from the EU for their actions to politicize the judiciary. Large demonstrations have already been happening in Poland against the law and there are many critics at home and abroad. Germany is very uneasy with this turn of events saying that it will lead to a "politically controlled judiciary, in which compliant judges are guided like puppets."

Meanwhile the EU has said that they might trigger an article 7 procedure against the Poles. This article 7 is a sanction law which is in place for when countries make laws/decisions that are: "serious and persistent violations" of the EU treaty's fundamental values. Should the procedure pass, it would mean that Poland looses it's voting rights in the EU.

Well, this is going to get interesting because the Polish president now has a thinking time of 21 days before he must either sign the law or decide to refuse to sign the law.

And this is exactly what I don't like about the EU.
It's essentially the United States of Europe, it just hasn't evolved enough yet to force member states to bend to its will.
Precisely why I don't like about the USA.

Time to jump ship before it's to late Poland.

Mac77 · Jul 22, 2017

Peter King said:
Neither option is acceptable, politicians should not interfere in the appointing of judges.

Then how are judges selected in euro la la land?

Do they pull names out of a hat?

And if so who decides which names are in the hat?

ludin · Jul 22, 2017

this is what happens when you surrender your sovereignty.

England realized this and got the heck out of dodge.
I agree term limits for judges would be great.

same for congress.

Lord Tammerlain · Jul 22, 2017

ludin said:
this is what happens when you surrender your sovereignty.

England realized this and got the heck out of dodge.
I agree term limits for judges would be great.

same for congress.

Time for Scotland to get out of dodge as well

Poland risking trouble with the EU

Doctor D