• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Poland risking trouble with the EU

Every associations have the right to set their condition for membership and it is goods that EU have rules then it comes to democracy and judiciary independency.

Also using nationalism as an excuse to concentrate as much power and control under the ruling party can lead to increased corruption as well as reduced democracy.
And no one questions those two things.

Except that is not the context of this move by the Polish government and you know it. This is not just out of nowhere or directed at contravening EU principles. This is about a political battle between the Pro-EU Polish left and the EU-skeptic Polish right. This is a domestic issue that is being heavly influenced by the outside! So why is the EU taking such a strong position? Not on principle but to protect her interests and to deny that is lunacy.
 
And no one questions those two things.
What's there to question when one sticks specifically to the two points you responded to?

And, having read your take on the whole issue for some time now, one wishes you'd make up your mind between

Except that is not the context of this move by the Polish government and you know it. This is not just out of nowhere or directed at contravening EU principles.
and
This is about a political battle between the Pro-EU Polish left and the EU-skeptic Polish right.
so as to be able to discern what, in your mind, it's going to be then.
This is a domestic issue that is being heavly influenced by the outside!
Interests raging may be domestic (actually they're Kaczynski and followership) but that doesn't make it a solely domestic issue. The vast majority of Poles that hold membership in the EU to have been of great benefit to Poland and thus hold opposing such membership as undesirable are more likely to agree on that than they're likely to agree with you.
So why is the EU taking such a strong position?
Because communities have rules that all members agree upon before joining, often enough playing a role (part) in the very formulation of the same, once they're members. Change your mind to no longer liking them, make your move to change them. Breaching them is not the answer so the last resort is to leave the club. Good luck with getting the majority of Poles to approve that one.

There's no having your cake and eating it too.
Not on principle but to protect her interests and to deny that is lunacy.
I'll spare myself and everyone else speculations on where lunacy actually lies in this case. Just to say that your lack of comprehension on the issue of privileges (granted) and responsibilities (demanded) of EU member states to each other and to the whole, does precious little for the case you're trying to make here.
 
I have taking two stances:
1. the media is not framing this in context so its impossible for an outside objective observer to accurately gage the motives
2. The EU is likely source of this BS media narrative to help the local PO interest due to their pro-EU stance. That is overstepping the current EU mandate and is another example overstep.
Your comment speaks to neither...
 
I have taking two stances:
1. the media is not framing this in context so its impossible for an outside objective observer to accurately gage the motives
2. The EU is likely source of this BS media narrative to help the local PO interest due to their pro-EU stance. That is overstepping the current EU mandate and is another example overstep.
.........both opinions noted and noted as being no more than just that/those.
Your comment speaks to neither...
nothing to be done for those that either cannot read or simply refuse to.

In view of which I'm done with you here, so have a nice day.
 
.........both opinions noted and noted as being no more than just that/those.nothing to be done for those that either cannot read or simply refuse to.

In view of which I'm done with you here, so have a nice day.
I suppose I don't need to respond but yes, I came here to share an opinion, so your reading matches my expectations in sharing even if you think it silly. I am not in disagreement with the facts that the EU can set her own rules or there are legal grounds to take action or principles of judicial indepdence are good or government appointing judges is suspcious, I am simply sharing my view on a situation which I see the EU as in the moral wrong despite those facts. If you want to discuss my reasoning I am happy to but I don't need to talk about other issues where we are in agreement and if you dismiss my opinion okay great.
 
And no one questions those two things.

Except that is not the context of this move by the Polish government and you know it. This is not just out of nowhere or directed at contravening EU principles. This is about a political battle between the Pro-EU Polish left and the EU-skeptic Polish right. This is a domestic issue that is being heavly influenced by the outside! So why is the EU taking such a strong position? Not on principle but to protect her interests and to deny that is lunacy.

The same argument has been heard from the ruling party Fidesz in Hungary and right wing and far right policians from other European countries regarding the development in Hungary. That they claim that it’s an internal matter that EU shouldn’t care about.

Even if you have seen a deteriorating of democracy during Fidesz seven years in power. With both increased corruption, more concentration of power to the ruling elite and that Hungary have fallen to place 71 on the World Press Freedom Index.

https://rsf.org/en/hungary

Also, that are your evidence that it’s only about EU protecting its interest? That even the Polish president that belong to the Law and Justice Party have struck down two of three proposed laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dent-signs-controversial-law-despite-protests
 
The same argument has been heard from the ruling party Fidesz in Hungary and right wing and far right policians from other European countries regarding the development in Hungary. That they claim that it’s an internal matter that EU shouldn’t care about.

Even if you have seen a deteriorating of democracy during Fidesz seven years in power. With both increased corruption, more concentration of power to the ruling elite and that Hungary have fallen to place 71 on the World Press Freedom Index.

https://rsf.org/en/hungary

Also, that are your evidence that it’s only about EU protecting its interest? That even the Polish president that belong to the Law and Justice Party have struck down two of three proposed laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dent-signs-controversial-law-despite-protests
Thank you for addressing my point and providing a situation to help bring further context. I will look into the Hungry situation and see how it changes my impression.
 
No, it is very important, both in the symbolic manner but also because they will no longer have a voice when EU laws and decisions will be made.

And I think an independent judiciary is highly important and if a country tries to do away with that, the EU has to stand up for the rights of Polish people to have the protection of an unbiased and independent judiciary.

I know what you mean, and what you are trying to explain.
But what I am saying is that the way it is now, the EU is barely fair with Poland as it is. They should at least get a chance to have more of a say in the matters of their own making before something serious happens.

Its more on the same line as when I was following Brexit, but the two can be seen a an eerily similar parallel, despite some of the more glaring difference.
 
I know what you mean, and what you are trying to explain.
But what I am saying is that the way it is now, the EU is barely fair with Poland as it is. They should at least get a chance to have more of a say in the matters of their own making before something serious happens.

Its more on the same line as when I was following Brexit, but the two can be seen a an eerily similar parallel, despite some of the more glaring difference.

Except that the Brits made a decision about the future of their country, making them more free (according to themselves which may or may not be true, people will have to wait and see because they could be lumbered with a lot of the "bad" from the EU without much of the benefits) whereas this was a political assault on the judicial impartiality and independence.
 
Except that the Brits made a decision about the future of their country, making them more free (according to themselves which may or may not be true, people will have to wait and see because they could be lumbered with a lot of the "bad" from the EU without much of the benefits) whereas this was a political assault on the judicial impartiality and independence.

Like I said, parallels & differences.

Though as my inbox is telling me, that as of the 24th their president has finally cowed to the intense protest leveled his way...
So I guess this was meaningless... undone by my spam filter.. again.
 
I know what you mean, and what you are trying to explain.
But what I am saying is that the way it is now, the EU is barely fair with Poland as it is. They should at least get a chance to have more of a say in the matters of their own making before something serious happens.

Its more on the same line as when I was following Brexit, but the two can be seen a an eerily similar parallel, despite some of the more glaring difference.

This is where you are getting it wrong. Poland can do whatever it wants, but as a member of the EU there will be consequences when you go against the treaty obligations. One of those treaty obligations is an independent judiciary and you aint independent if your judges are all appointed by the Minister of Justice.

And lets be clear here, the EU as an institution does not care.. it is the member nations that care. When Poland and Ireland tried to force Christianity to become the official religion of the EU, it was not the EU that protested, it was the other member nations. Ireland backed down, but the Poles kept at it and lost. It is not the first time that Poland, and especially the governing party, have been at loggerheads with the other EU members over things.
 
This is where you are getting it wrong. Poland can do whatever it wants, but as a member of the EU there will be consequences when you go against the treaty obligations. One of those treaty obligations is an independent judiciary and you aint independent if your judges are all appointed by the Minister of Justice.

And lets be clear here, the EU as an institution does not care.. it is the member nations that care. When Poland and Ireland tried to force Christianity to become the official religion of the EU, it was not the EU that protested, it was the other member nations. Ireland backed down, but the Poles kept at it and lost. It is not the first time that Poland, and especially the governing party, have been at loggerheads with the other EU members over things.

Yeah that whole "lets all be Christian, but less nice about it" fiasco was not one of their best moments, if I must say so myself.

People are still missing the fact that even if the members of the EU care, it does not change the fact that can be jus as controlling, or even more so than what they say Poland is trying to be. We have seen it in the past, when they go to vote on certain outcomes, and either they would just ignore the result nearly outright. Or they would call for a revote until the get the answer they wanted. Now I admit that its not always the case, but you can see that what is going on now is definitely not the best way for them to be handling this.
 
This is where you are getting it wrong. Poland can do whatever it wants, but as a member of the EU there will be consequences when you go against the treaty obligations

In fact, the head of the Polish Law & Justice party, pulling political strings, thinks HE can do whatever he wants. He's gone bonkers since he lost his twin brother in a plane crash. (For which he has blamed his "enemies".)

From "Freedom House", here: What Trump Should Learn from Poland’s Troubles
After winning elections in October 2015, the Law and Justice Party, led by Jaroslaw Kaczynski, made targeting the media one of its first priorities, starting with the influential public broadcaster. First, a temporary measure allowed the firing of the management and supervisory boards of the national television and radio broadcasters, allowing the party to replace them. A former party lawmaker became head of the TV station.

Then, the governing party passed a “bridge law” that created a new National Media Council that has party lawmakers as three of its five members. The effect on the public broadcaster of these changes has been striking: some 225 journalists have resigned or been fired, and the broadcaster’s news agenda now follows the government’s talking points in lock-step.

Private media are under pressure in more subtle ways, through a shift in advertising revenue from state-owned enterprises away from critics and towards pro-government outlets, and creeping restrictions on distribution of critical media at locations like state-owned gas stations. Journalists and outlets are grappling with shrinking access to government officials. Rhetorically, they face broadside attacks from a government that speaking of “re-Polonization” of the media, meaning ridding the sector of foreign ownership and eliminating “unpatriotic” views.

Poland seems to be behaving as if it were still controlled by the Communist Party.

Kaczynski has got to go, and until then Poland will be sidelined in any futher EU business. Until the Polish voters wake up and junk his party, Poland is in quarantine in the EU.

For sure, for sure ...
 
Last edited:
No, right as usual. Whining about my comments in some other thread is just that, whining.
:lamo Wrong as usual.
Pointing out that you are engaged in either one or the other activity is not whining.
Too bad you do not know the difference.


No, most of what I say is accurate.
iLOL
You may think it is but it really isn't.


No, that is nonsense because the treaty was updated to envision the concept that it is now.
Oy vey!
Is now?
Is now, is not what it was intended to be. Do you really not understand that?


Nope, but please keep posting the usual non-answers.
You are projecting.


Not if you are part of a Union in which some things have been agreed upon to be regulated on EU wide scale. Your opinion that it is not is irrelevant in this because it is based on what you think should be important, not what is the actual reality of the situation (which is what I am talking about as it pertains to the EU and it's principles).
Wrong as usual.
Brexit.


Except that it has been said that they are in violation of the statute about respecting the rule of law.
And yet no on one has been able to provide the exact law they say is being violated and then poiint out how it is.
As far as I can tell it is nothing more than a false claim at this point.


Nope, because if governments can fire judges they feel are not ruling in their favor enough, it is not independent. Or is that simple concept one bridge too far?
iLOL You are imagining things.
It does not say that.


Yes, the EU leadership can claim and act on it. And nope, we should keep the EU for as long as we deem it appropriate.
I see. It is your thinking that is what's wrong here.

Again.
The EU can claim anything it wants, it doesn't mean it is right, if it does, it means you should get rid of the EU immediately.
 
At this point, if Poland tried to declare war on Russia, it would be isolated. Their closest ally - Trump - is terrified of Vladimir Putin. The only countries I could see coming to Poland's aid if they went full-on ultranationalist would be Hungary and Turkey.

I hope the ultranationalism in Poland reaches its high-water mark very soon.
 
At this point, if Poland tried to declare war on Russia, it would be isolated. Their closest ally - Trump - is terrified of Vladimir Putin. The only countries I could see coming to Poland's aid if they went full-on ultranationalist would be Hungary and Turkey.

I hope the ultranationalism in Poland reaches its high-water mark very soon.

Hungary also got close ties to Russia and Putin.

Inside the EU, Hungary promotes Russian interests such as the scrapping of economic sanctions imposed after Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014. Trade ties include a gas supply agreement with Russia's Gazprom, and a deal for Russia to finance and build a nuclear power plant. Both sides want to boost bilateral trade.

Orban has also followed parts of the Kremlin's playbook, cracking down on critical non-governmental bodies that he accuses of using foreign funding to subvert the political order.

There was scope for still-deeper ties between Hungary and Russia, and if the EU grumbled Orban would likely point to Trump, said Peter Kreko, a lecturer at Indiana University.

"All Orban has to do is point to America," Kreko said. "If Russia is good for them why should we exercise restraint?"

Hungary tests EU nerves frayed by Russia as Putin visits Budapest | Reuters

The positive thing about Poland is that you have large protest against the goverment and a president that atleast partly listen to the people. That the president atleast veteod two out of three law regarding the goverments attempt to take controle of the courts.
 
Back
Top Bottom