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London's Grenfell Tower, A Very Political Tragedy

Bergslagstroll

Bergslagstroll

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Intersting article about the horrific fire in London and how adequate housing should be a right.

Time and again, residents reported serious concerns about the safety of the building to the management organization, the local council, and the member of parliament (recently unseated in the general election). They were met with silence, and several told me on the scene they were convinced it was because they were poor, living in a rich borough that was determined to socially cleanse the area as part of a gentrifying project.

Today’s fire in Grenfell Tower is not outside of politics — it is a symbol of the United Kingdom’s deep inequality. The block of 120 apartments housed between 400 and 600 people, some in very crowded conditions. Tenants reported problems with elevators, emergency lighting, wiring, and boilers. Even the most minor improvement required constant badgering. People were given the message that they were lucky to have any home at all, let alone in a borough that harbored such wealth.
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https://jacobinmag.com/2017/06/grenfell-tower-fire-inequality-housing
 
truthatallcost said:
Who is responsible for the buildings upkeep?
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The owners, the management company, the local council, the government regulators. All conservative. Luxury flats never burn down like a roman candle because they have adequate fire protection.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Intersting article about the horrific fire in London and how adequate housing should be a right.



https://jacobinmag.com/2017/06/grenfell-tower-fire-inequality-housing
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Does money grow on trees in the Jacobin world? Funding dries up quickly when you are importing immigrants that need to be fed and housed at the national taxpayer expense. You already have citizens that are in need, and you want to keep importing more and more people who need to be housed and fed?

Yep....just blame it on those evil conservatives who want to take care of the people who are already here!
 
Manc Skipper said:
The owners, the management company, the local council, the government regulators. All conservative. Luxury flats never burn down like a roman candle because they have adequate fire protection.
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Wait Manc, they're 'all conservatives'? How do you know this?
 
Bergslagstroll said:
Intersting article about the horrific fire in London and how adequate housing should be a right.



https://jacobinmag.com/2017/06/grenfell-tower-fire-inequality-housing
Click to expand...

The owner in the final analysis is the City. The Fire Department is city and the Police are city. Everyone responsible for the funding of safety and control of it are city organizations and they all report into the Lord Mayor's office. It even seems that the problem of safety had been tabled at a city council meeting or two. So who is responsible for the situation?
 
Manc Skipper said:
The owners, the management company, the local council, the government regulators. All conservative. Luxury flats never burn down like a roman candle because they have adequate fire protection.
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You can't blame Conservatives for this. The fault lies with any regulations that allowed (if it turns out to be the cladding's fault) polyethylene cladding with an aluminium skin to be used on buildings.

The building was designed in Harold Wilson's first premiership, completed during his second premiership.

The decision to spend over £10 million on refurbishment and upkeep was apolitical.

Fitting water sprinklers would have cost £138,000 at £1150 per flat and it is down to whoever specified whatever was to go into that building that they chose to spend £2.6 million on replacement windows and not a cheap £138,000 on water sprinklers - or even smoke / fire alarms.

You CAN point at Theresa May and say she handled her visit badly while Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did meet residents and face their anger.

RetiredUSN said:
Does money grow on trees in the Jacobin world? Funding dries up quickly when you are importing immigrants that need to be fed and housed at the national taxpayer expense. You already have citizens that are in need, and you want to keep importing more and more people who need to be housed and fed?

Yep....just blame it on those evil conservatives who want to take care of the people who are already here!
Click to expand...

While I am happy to defend the Conservatives were relevant, Grenfell tower did not comprise imported immigrants only and this was unrelated. Vast sums of money were spent on the building but not on fire suppression systems - and that money was approved under a Conservative Govt. The way the money was spent however was apolitical.

joG said:
The owner in the final analysis is the City. The Fire Department is city and the Police are city. Everyone responsible for the funding of safety and control of it are city organizations and they all report into the Lord Mayor's office. It even seems that the problem of safety had been tabled at a city council meeting or two. So who is responsible for the situation?
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You're back with this idiotic claim that you never answered in the other thread. Can you please show the chain of command that says Sadiq Khan is responsible?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
You can't blame Conservatives for this. The fault lies with any regulations that allowed (if it turns out to be the cladding's fault) polyethylene cladding with an aluminium skin to be used on buildings.

The building was designed in Harold Wilson's first premiership, completed during his second premiership.

The decision to spend over £10 million on refurbishment and upkeep was apolitical.

Fitting water sprinklers would have cost £138,000 at £1150 per flat and it is down to whoever specified whatever was to go into that building that they chose to spend £2.6 million on replacement windows and not a cheap £138,000 on water sprinklers - or even smoke / fire alarms.

You CAN point at Theresa May and say she handled her visit badly while Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did meet residents and face their anger.



While I am happy to defend the Conservatives were relevant, Grenfell tower did not comprise imported immigrants only and this was unrelated. Vast sums of money were spent on the building but not on fire suppression systems - and that money was approved under a Conservative Govt. The way the money was spent however was apolitical.



You're back with this idiotic claim that you never answered in the other thread. Can you please show the chain of command that says Sadiq Khan is responsible?
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Council housing right?
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Fitting water sprinklers would have cost £138,000 at £1150 per flat and it is down to whoever specified whatever was to go into that building that they chose to spend £2.6 million on replacement windows and not a cheap £138,000 on water sprinklers - or even smoke / fire alarms.
Click to expand...

There is simply no way a sprinkler retrofit would cost so little. I just completed a dry line replacement in a small parking garage that cost more than that. No new hardware, no new holes drilled or lines run, just new pipe and heads, in an incredibly cheap labor market.

The windows were likely done on an energy management program to save costs on heating.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
You can't blame Conservatives for this. The fault lies with any regulations that allowed (if it turns out to be the cladding's fault) polyethylene cladding with an aluminium skin to be used on buildings.

The building was designed in Harold Wilson's first premiership, completed during his second premiership.

The decision to spend over £10 million on refurbishment and upkeep was apolitical.

Fitting water sprinklers would have cost £138,000 at £1150 per flat and it is down to whoever specified whatever was to go into that building that they chose to spend £2.6 million on replacement windows and not a cheap £138,000 on water sprinklers - or even smoke / fire alarms.

You CAN point at Theresa May and say she handled her visit badly while Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did meet residents and face their anger.



While I am happy to defend the Conservatives were relevant, Grenfell tower did not comprise imported immigrants only and this was unrelated. Vast sums of money were spent on the building but not on fire suppression systems - and that money was approved under a Conservative Govt. The way the money was spent however was apolitical.



You're back with this idiotic claim that you never answered in the other thread. Can you please show the chain of command that says Sadiq Khan is responsible?
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The Conservative government has resisted/deflected updates in regulations. Brexiteers spoke joyfully of making a bonfire of regulation once we leave. Boris the Mayor cut ten fire stations and multiple pieces of equipment from the LFB and bought water cannons. The refurbishment excluded the installation of sprinklers (requirement deleted) but included cladding because the tower was an eyesore to the luxury flats nearby. (It was in the design brief) The cladding panels were chosen because they were TWO POUNDS per panel cheaper than the inflammable type. Those peole died from austerity for a £5000 saving.
The tenants were ignored by Kensington council and the management committee as they were interfering with the gentrification and tacit expulsion of poor people from the area.
 
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This fire will cost those who own the building a lot more than it would have cost to make it safe.

Wait and see.
 
joG said:
The owner in the final analysis is the City. The Fire Department is city and the Police are city. Everyone responsible for the funding of safety and control of it are city organizations and they all report into the Lord Mayor's office. It even seems that the problem of safety had been tabled at a city council meeting or two.
So who is responsible for the situation?
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Who put the do-nothing politicians in office?
 
RetiredUSN said:
Council housing right?
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https://www.globalplasticsheeting.c...ibrary/plastic-sheeting-is-it-flame-resistant

"Burn Baby Burn...Is Plastic Sheeting Fire Resistant?

Is plastic sheeting flame resistant? No... Can plastic sheeting be flame resistant? Again, no. Not if you adhere to the definition that differentiates flame resistant and flame retardant, or fire retardant.
flame_resistant.png

It's a bit tricky because more often than not, flame resistant and flame retardant are used interchangeably. Here is the minute difference.
Flame resistant fabrics (notice the word "plastic" is missing here) are fabrics that are inherently flame resistant by their chemical nature. If a fire is lit under a flame resistant fabric, it will prevent the spread of fire. They may burn, but they will burn slowly, and often self-extinguish.
Fire or flame retardant plastic (plastic sheeting) and fibers, are items which by themselves will burn if a flame is placed on it. What makes some fabrics and plastics fire retardant is the special fire retardant chemicals that are either added to the polymer while it is being formulated, or treated with these chemicals, which then makes the fabric or plastic fire retardant.
Plastic sheeting made from polyethylene will burn big time when hit by flames. The only saving grace to slow the fire is if the polyethylene is treated with a fire retardant chemical. Since plastic/ polyethylene is made from oil, it can really make a fire become a big fire in a hurry it ti's not treated with and FR additive.
Better safe than sorry- FR plastic is the way to go to be safe."
 
Manc Skipper said:
The Conservative government has resisted/deflected updates in regulations. Brexiteers spoke joyfully of making a bonfire of regulation once we leave. Boris the Mayor cut ten fire stations and multiple pieces of equipment from the LFB and bought water cannons. The refurbishment excluded the installation of sprinklers (requirement deleted) but included cladding because the tower was an eyesore to the luxury flats nearby. (It was in the design brief) The cladding panels were chosen because they were TWO POUNDS per panel cheaper than the inflammable type. Those peole died from austerity for a £5000 saving.
The tenants were ignored by Kensington council and the management committee as they were interfering with the gentrification and tacit expulsion of poor people from the area.
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You see the Express headline trying to blame the EU?
 
RetiredUSN said:
Does money grow on trees in the Jacobin world? Funding dries up quickly when you are importing immigrants that need to be fed and housed at the national taxpayer expense. You already have citizens that are in need, and you want to keep importing more and more people who need to be housed and fed?

Yep....just blame it on those evil conservatives who want to take care of the people who are already here!
Click to expand...

Oh look, we're going to start caring about people in need.
 
Anyone else feel another riot brewing?
 
Manc Skipper said:
Fake news. They hate the EU/Muslims/poor people. There's no EU requirement.
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I know that, but I bet the usual Express reader does not.. most of which are most likely Tory/UKIP types. Lets see if it sticks, because so far I have not heard much about the fact, that the cladding/insulation is banned on the continent and even in the US... only Piers "I love Trump" Morgan is touting the US part but ignoring the EU/European continental part..
 
Higgins86 said:
Anyone else feel another riot brewing?
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It is close that is for sure, and I would not blame them this time around. The government (local and national) have been slow as hell. The fact that they wont come out with how many residents there are in the block is worrying... not that they are trying to hide anything, but that they are incompetent which is almost worse.

That there is no standing fund to deal with such disasters is kinda .. wtf? Ohh now there is 5 million pounds to help those effected.. yea but if you dont know how many there were in the building, then.. sigh.

Normally, there would be a death number and a missing number.. only thing we have is a death number that is going up. Where is the missing? Why is it, that people effected have to go around looking for the missing? There seems to be a serious lack of coordination here.. no leadership.

Only good thing that has come out of it, is that the community has come together big time to help. Question is if the posh rich twats aka landlords, living down the road, will open up their vacant homes/apartments to the people effected. So far I have only heard of a university dormitory opening up some rooms for the effected.

People forget... the area is dirt poor but you can literally spit into some of the richest parts of London from the building, which is why the cladding was put on in the first place, because the rich in the posh areas saw it as a eye sore.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Does money grow on trees in the Jacobin world? Funding dries up quickly when you are importing immigrants that need to be fed and housed at the national taxpayer expense. You already have citizens that are in need, and you want to keep importing more and more people who need to be housed and fed?

Yep....just blame it on those evil conservatives who want to take care of the people who are already here!
Click to expand...

I assume you are talking about asylum seekers rather than immigrants, given that immigrants as a whole use the benefit system less than locals. But do tell me what proportion of the budget goes to asylum seekers?

Furthermore we have a level of corporation tax lower that that of the United States (not that many in either country are paying it) so it´s not like we woke up one day and realized that we ran out of money.
 
Red_Dave said:
I assume you are talking about asylum seekers rather than immigrants, given that immigrants as a whole use the benefit system less than locals. But do tell me what proportion of the budget goes to asylum seekers?

Furthermore we have a level of corporation tax lower that that of the United States (not that many in either country are paying it) so it´s not like we woke up one day and realized that we ran out of money.
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Yet, you cannot maintain enough funds to maintain a building. Gimme a break!
 
RetiredUSN said:
Yet, you cannot maintain enough funds to maintain a building. Gimme a break!
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Central government's austerity policy since the Bush Crash has cut funding to local authorities, while banning them from raising local rates to compensate. Services have been decimated. This particular area is a small pocket of poverty in the most expensive part of London. The Conservative council has long adopted a quiet policy of not-so-benign neglect, coupled with creeping gentrification to gradually drive these people out of the area, pleading poverty themselves for cuts in services and assistance.
The flammable cladding panels used were £2 per panel cheaper than the fireproof ones. These people died for a saving of £5,000 on the building.
 
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