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London's Grenfell Tower, A Very Political Tragedy

RetiredUSN said:
Yet, you cannot maintain enough funds to maintain a building. Gimme a break!
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We can, and thats what everyone is so pissed off about. You can look up the stats if you think I´m making things up
 
PeteEU said:
You see the Express headline trying to blame the EU?
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That was unbelievable. Appalling and stupid. I've read elsewhere those panels are not used in Europe so how the Express could claim this is stupid beyond belief.

Manc Skipper said:
The Conservative government has resisted/deflected updates in regulations. Brexiteers spoke joyfully of making a bonfire of regulation once we leave. Boris the Mayor cut ten fire stations and multiple pieces of equipment from the LFB and bought water cannons.
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You're conflating Conservatives and Brexiteers here. I still maintain this was both a business decision by the contractors and for the executive in charge of Grenfell. The public inquiry hasn't started and I will point fingers of blame when they find fault.

Not before.

Manc Skipper said:
~ The refurbishment excluded the installation of sprinklers (requirement deleted)
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The leader of Kensington council didn't do any favours to himself yesterday when he appeared to blame the residents. That decision will also come out of the inquiry.

Manc Skipper said:
~ but included cladding because the tower was an eyesore to the luxury flats nearby. (It was in the design brief) The cladding panels were chosen because they were TWO POUNDS per panel cheaper than the inflammable type. Those peole died from austerity for a £5000 saving.
The tenants were ignored by Kensington council and the management committee as they were interfering with the gentrification and tacit expulsion of poor people from the area.
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OK. The panels and windows were fitted at cost of £2.9 million but the building still cost nearly £9million to update. You can't yet claim austerity - £6.1 million was spent elsewhere and those decisions have to be investigated properly and publicly.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Central government's austerity policy since the Bush Crash has cut funding to local authorities, while banning them from raising local rates to compensate. Services have been decimated. This particular area is a small pocket of poverty in the most expensive part of London. The Conservative council has long adopted a quiet policy of not-so-benign neglect, coupled with creeping gentrification to gradually drive these people out of the area, pleading poverty themselves for cuts in services and assistance.
The flammable cladding panels used were £2 per panel cheaper than the fireproof ones. These people died for a saving of £5,000 on the building.
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Did they use EIFS with a stucco finish?
 
It is insane that the company used the non-fire retardant material on the outside (with the flammable plastic), in the US and in my country that material is not allowed on buildings higher than 12 meters high (just for fire safely reasons). The local council which allowed this should be sued for endangering people's lives for that decision alone. Maybe for the entire combination of failures they could even be prosecuted for causing the deaths of all these people.
 
Peter King said:
It is insane that the company used the non-fire retardant material on the outside (with the flammable plastic), in the US and in my country that material is not allowed on buildings higher than 12 meters high (just for fire safely reasons). The local council which allowed this should be sued for endangering people's lives for that decision alone. Maybe for the entire combination of failures they could even be prosecuted for causing the deaths of all these people.
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If anything, grenfell tower might stand for something.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
That was unbelievable. Appalling and stupid. I've read elsewhere those panels are not used in Europe so how the Express could claim this is stupid beyond belief.

You're conflating Conservatives and Brexiteers here. I still maintain this was both a business decision by the contractors and for the executive in charge of Grenfell. The public inquiry hasn't started and I will point fingers of blame when they find fault.

Not before.

The leader of Kensington council didn't do any favours to himself yesterday when he appeared to blame the residents. That decision will also come out of the inquiry.

OK. The panels and windows were fitted at cost of £2.9 million but the building still cost nearly £9million to update. You can't yet claim austerity - £6.1 million was spent elsewhere and those decisions have to be investigated properly and publicly.
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I think the problem is going to be that this disaster fits a narrative almost perfectly.
 
truthatallcost said:
I'm sure that the only conservatives in liberal-minded London just happen to be the ones responsible for Grenfell.

:doh
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You ever hear of austerity measures affecting practically everything and ever hear of who imposed those measures over the past years?
 
Chagos said:
You ever hear of austerity measures affecting practically everything and ever hear of who imposed those measures over the past years?
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If anything, grenfell tower was the funeral pyre warning us about the dangers of austerity.
 
truthatallcost said:
I'm sure that the only conservatives in liberal-minded London just happen to be the ones responsible for Grenfell.

:doh
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Not correct. The Boroughs of:

Barnet
Bexley
Bromley
Havering
Hillingdon
Kensington and Chelsea
Kingston upon Thames
Richmond upon Thames
Wandsworth
Westminster

are all under conservative control, so to say the only conservatives in Liberal-minded London just happen to be responsible for Grenfell is untrue as 9 other boroughs are led by Tory/conservative politicians.
 
William Rea said:
I think the problem is going to be that this disaster fits a narrative almost perfectly.
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Absolutely. The trouble is the easy answer doesn't always help because the finger of blame gets pointed in the wrong direction.

Anyhow, one thing the Conservatives are doing really badly is handling the public mood - Theresa May is out of touch and even though trying hard with a £5 million fund she needs to face the public in Kensington rather than disappear the moment any protesters start. The public mood is anger and the Govt doesn't seem to have anyone who can present a sympathetic face that engages with the people directly affected.

Mind you, if I were violently anti-Conservative, it would be a plan to go foment hostility and scupper any attempts by the govt when they come to meet people.
 
I also you got a free market out of control then it comes to hoisng in London. There a one bed room apartment can cost over 400 pounds a week. While at the same time you can.t guarantee everything have a decent and safe living.

What Does It Really Cost to Live in London? | Apartment Therapy

That you even had the Tories voted down proposal that properties should be fit for human habitation while at the same Tories propose laws that would reduce the number of council homes and other aptarments for renting.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-ensure-rented-homes-fit-for-human-habitation
 
Chagos said:
You ever hear of austerity measures affecting practically everything and ever hear of who imposed those measures over the past years?
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Perhaps they might have addressed these sorts of problems when they were spending like drunken sailors. Austerity is a consequence, not a cause.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Absolutely. The trouble is the easy answer doesn't always help because the finger of blame gets pointed in the wrong direction.

Anyhow, one thing the Conservatives are doing really badly is handling the public mood - Theresa May is out of touch and even though trying hard with a £5 million fund she needs to face the public in Kensington rather than disappear the moment any protesters start. The public mood is anger and the Govt doesn't seem to have anyone who can present a sympathetic face that engages with the people directly affected.

Mind you, if I were violently anti-Conservative, it would be a plan to go foment hostility and scupper any attempts by the govt when they come to meet people.
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I never bought into this 'Health and Safety gone mad' meme, I guess that comes from working in an industrial setting being surrounded by stuff that will kill you, not just maim you. It seems to me that it's only the British and the emerging economies that want to work to this lowest common denominator but then, our ruling class was mad enough to push the Industrial Revolution on us like they did so why should I be surprised. The most powerful force in this will be the Insurance companies who are not going to insure a risk like this very cheaply going forward.
 
Fletch said:
Perhaps they might have addressed these sorts of problems when they were spending like drunken sailors. Austerity is a consequence, not a cause.
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The Banksters private debt was socialised, and it's still killing innocents today.
 
Manc Skipper said:
The Banksters private debt was socialised, and it's still killing innocents today.
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I kind of agree but, the real root cause was allowing private banks to control money supply via credit. Under government supervision, the Bank of England effectively privatised and deregulated money supply and then left it to the market.

EDIT - The problem is the slavish puritanical economics of the neo-liberal laissez faire who seem to think that we should treat our economy like a huge experiment in pure economic theory; as long as it's their version of this pure utopian economic theory of course. It's like they have approximated Economics into a model that humans have no control over, we do have control.
 
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Fletch said:
Sure. But if true all the more reason to oppose socialization.
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NO. When you nearly destroy an economy with one course of action, the solution is not more of the same!
 
Fletch said:
Perhaps they might have addressed these sorts of problems when they were spending like drunken sailors. Austerity is a consequence, not a cause.
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For the Tories, austerity is neither; it's a religion. Economic growth has stalled because of a lack of government spending, not because of too much.
 
Andalublue said:
For the Tories, austerity is neither; it's a religion. Economic growth has stalled because of a lack of government spending, not because of too much.
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But Andy! Won't you just think of the trickle down!







...that never works.
 
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William Rea said:
But Andy! Won't you just think of the trickle down!







...that never works.
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I've thought about it, visualised it, meditated on it and invoked it, but somehow it just never seems to appear.

Funny that.
 
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