Germans are bad

When it comes to the German cars, most people who are willing to buy expensive cars will not shy away from buying audi, bugatti, bmw or mercedes cars.

But Volkswagen also produces cars in the US and Mexico.

BMW and Mercedes also make cars in the US.

So they will most likely not be tragically hit by import duties on their cars anyway.

And even then, some just go for the quality of a German car. I wouldn't be caught dead in one. I drive an Italian car (Fiat, before that a Lancia) and in the past Japanese cars (toyota, mitsubishi).

Peter King said:

When it comes to the German cars, most people who are willing to buy expensive cars will not shy away from buying audi, bugatti, bmw or mercedes cars.

But Volkswagen also produces cars in the US and Mexico.

BMW and Mercedes also make cars in the US.

So they will most likely not be tragically hit by import duties on their cars anyway.

And even then, some just go for the quality of a German car. I wouldn't be caught dead in one. I drive an Italian car (Fiat, before that a Lancia) and in the past Japanese cars (toyota, mitsubishi).

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I have owned British (MGB/Vauxhall), French (2CV), Swedish (SAAB), Italian (FIAT) and German (Opel/VW) cars. The dullest and by far the most reliable car I've had was the British/German car. Not the VW Golf, but the Vauxhall/Opel Astra. A complete snooze-a-thon to drive, but I had it for 8 years and in that entire time the only thing to go wrong was a rusted-through exhaust pipe. The VW, my current car, is a never-ending calvary of breakdowns. Great to drive though.

Andalublue said:

I have owned British (MGB/Vauxhall), French (2CV), Swedish (SAAB), Italian (FIAT) and German (Opel/VW) cars. The dullest and by far the most reliable car I've had was the British/German car. Not the VW Golf, but the Vauxhall/Opel Astra. A complete snooze-a-thon to drive, but I had it for 8 years and in that entire time the only thing to go wrong was a rusted-through exhaust pipe. The VW, my current car, is a never-ending calvary of breakdowns. Great to drive though.

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I once purchased a Mazda from a Mazda/VW dealership. The car came with complimentary oil changes for the first two years. Every time I was in for an oil change I would be the only Mazda owner there, but the waiting room was always full of VW owners getting warranty work done.

Anecdotal evidence, take it as you will.

Mycroft said:

Maybe. Maybe not.

Trump isn't really stuffing it down the throats of US allies. He's simply telling them that the old way of doing things...the way that were disadvantageous to the US are over. If they want to get pissed off about it, that's their choice. On the other hand, they can choose to work with Trump to make deals that are acceptable to both sides.

I think, after all the pissing and moaning they'll see the light and come around.

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That isn't how your allies see it. No matter how much you spin this moron, you have absolutely no control over what your allies think.

Right now Trump is waging a campaign against his allies and has fired the opening shot in a trade war with Canada. Yet, he and his followers to too arrogant to believe there will be repercussions.

Fearandloathing said:

That isn't how your allies see it. No matter how much you spin this moron, you have absolutely no control over what your allies think.

Right now Trump is waging a campaign against his allies and has fired the opening shot in a trade war with Canada. Yet, he and his followers to too arrogant to believe there will be repercussions.

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Wait...are you calling me a moron? Are you sure you want to do that?

radcen said:

I once purchased a Mazda from a Mazda/VW dealership. The car came with complimentary oil changes for the first two years. Every time I was in for an oil change I would be the only Mazda owner there, but the waiting room was always full of VW owners getting warranty work done.

Anecdotal evidence, take it as you will.

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I agree that anecdotal evidence can be found to support most positions. I also think that VWs produced in Germany probably have a better reliability record than those produced elsewhere in the US, Mexico, China, India, Russia etc.

My advice would be that if reliability is your top priority (it's not mine particularly) then buy an Opel/Vauxhall.

Fearandloathing said:

That isn't how your allies see it. No matter how much you spin this moron, you have absolutely no control over what your allies think.

Right now Trump is waging a campaign against his allies and has fired the opening shot in a trade war with Canada. Yet, he and his followers to too arrogant to believe there will be repercussions.

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I'm hoping that our allies know this dumbassery is only temporary.

Mycroft said:

shrug...

Let them sacrifice if they want to go that route. Their choice.

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I'm afraid that demonstrates no understanding of what you earlier were trying to argue.

Infinite Chaos said:

I'm afraid that demonstrates no understanding of what you earlier were trying to argue.

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Well, if you say so...but you saying it doesn't make it so.

Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that to support what you are saying.

Mycroft said:

Well, if you say so...but you saying it doesn't make it so.

Sorry, but you'll have to do better than that to support what you are saying.

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I could say the same about you but with greater validity. One of us was trying to argue that Germany needs the US more than the US needs Germany so when I point out Germany's position of forging a stronger EU and partnerships with other nations is likely to succeed - I remain at a loss how Germany's decision is "their loss?"

As I am sure others have pointed out, Germany has factories in the US employing US workers and exports from those factories. Anyhow, as we've seen this week too, Trump is going to try and renege on the climate deal and this too will hep forge coalitions between China and the EU where both are committed to clean energy and clean energy production.

You try and export goods made with dirty energy and see how that goes for you.

Infinite Chaos said:

I could say the same about you but with greater validity. One of us was trying to argue that Germany needs the US more than the US needs Germany so when I point out Germany's position of forging a stronger EU and partnerships with other nations is likely to succeed - I remain at a loss how Germany's decision is "their loss?"

As I am sure others have pointed out, Germany has factories in the US employing US workers and exports from those factories. Anyhow, as we've seen this week too, Trump is going to try and renege on the climate deal and this too will hep forge coalitions between China and the EU where both are committed to clean energy and clean energy production.

You try and export goods made with dirty energy and see how that goes for you.

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The German auto industry understands the result of the US pulling out of the Paris Accords. This action puts them at a competitive disadvantage...making US automaker's position stronger. The German auto industry will have to respond...and will likely pressure Merkel to back off her environmental position.

.......

"The regrettable announcement by the USA makes it inevitable that Europe must facilitate a cost efficient and economically feasible climate policy to remain internationally competitive," Matthias Wissmann, president of the German auto industry lobby group VDA, said in a statement on Friday.

"The preservation of our competitive position is the precondition for successful climate protection. This correlation is often underestimated," Wissmann said, adding that the decision by the Unites States was disappointing.

The VDA said electricity and energy prices are already higher in Germany than in the United States, putting Germany at a disadvantage.

The VDA represents carmakers including BMW (BMWG.DE), Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), and Mercedes-Benz parent Daimler (DAIGn.DE).

The VDA's warning comes as German Chancellor Angela Merkel, one of the strongest advocates of the global pact to curb emissions of gases that speed climate change, said there was no turning back from the 2015 Paris climate agreement.

(highlight mine)

German carmakers fear losing competitive edge after U.S. Paris exit | Reuters

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Mycroft said:

The German auto industry understands the result of the US pulling out of the Paris Accords. This action puts them at a competitive disadvantage...making US automaker's position stronger. The German auto industry will have to respond...and will likely pressure Merkel to back off her environmental position.

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They'll just have to live with it. Conversely, US manufacturers not producing cars to globally-agreed standards will be at a competitive disadvantage in exporting their products to Paris-compliant countries. There may well be tariffs and impediments placed on US-manufactured vehicles if those vehicles do not comply with Paris standards.

Admittedly, the EU exports far, far more vehicles than the US does, but still the potential hit the US motor industry's export ability might take could outweigh any benefit they might gain from not complying with the Paris agreement.

Andalublue said:

They'll just have to live with it. Conversely, US manufacturers not producing cars to globally-agreed standards will be at a competitive disadvantage in exporting their products to Paris-compliant countries. There may well be tariffs and impediments placed on US-manufactured vehicles if those vehicles do not comply with Paris standards.

Admittedly, the EU exports far, far more vehicles than the US does, but still the potential hit the US's export ability might take could outweigh any benefit they might gain from not complying with the Paris agreement.

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Kinda like Volk's and BMW who cheated on emissions.

Will these be the new global standards of fair play and integrity?

RetiredUSN said:

Kinda like Volk's and BMW who cheated on emissions.

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Not just those two. Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes, Porsche, Toyota, Opel/Vauxhall/GM, Land Rover, Renault and others have all been caught. Seems like it was standard industry practice.

It's not just VW

Will these be the new global standards of fair play and integrity?

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Looks like it. I think Trump's the least likely candidate for imposing regulations on motor manufacturing corporations.

Mycroft said:

The German auto industry understands the result of the US pulling out of the Paris Accords. This action puts them at a competitive disadvantage...making US automaker's position stronger. The German auto industry will have to respond...and will likely pressure Merkel to back off her environmental position.

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Germany is already far behind it's loudly proclaimed goals. It is also quite inconceivable that successive governments did not know or turn a blind eye on the fact that the cars their firms were selling were emitting far more poisonous gas than the were documenting and so fraudulently achieving competitive advantage. But that is only a small criminal detail. The major hypocrisy is that one or the main industry was the one responsible for a very large amount of the co2 emissions they are angry about.

joG said:

Germany is already far behind it's loudly proclaimed goals. It is also quite inconceivable that successive governments did not know or turn a blind eye on the fact that the cars their firms were selling were emitting far more poisonous gas than the were documenting and so fraudulently achieving competitive advantage. But that is only a small criminal detail. The major hypocrisy is that one or the main industry was the one responsible for a very large amount of the co2 emissions they are angry about.

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Do you think the US, Japanese, Korean and French governments were aware that their motor manufacturers were doing that too?

Andalublue said:

Do you think the US, Japanese, Korean and French governments were aware that their motor manufacturers were doing that too?

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I cannot say as definitely as in the German case. But in the volkswagen case the state government sits on the board as do reps of the most powerful union. The fact of the poisonous gas and the co2 were both intensively discussed and multiple laws were passed. The attention was intense also because it is an industry that is so central to german survival. Furthermore the legal levels for gas concentrations in down town areas of a number of cities had been continuously breached to the point that inner cities had to be closed to traffic at certain times. The numbers did not add up. This was discussed over a decade ago in at least one political party.

Whether Clinton knew that chrysler was cheating? I have no idea. Did Wulff and probably also Schröder know? I think it is impossible that they didn't at least have a strong suspicion and they were in positions responsible for knowing it.

The level of conflating issues just for the sake of having something to say and appearing knowledgeable in the process may get tiring, nevertheless information needs deserve being served:

1. It is not the German government that sits on the board of VW, it's the government of the federal state of Lower Saxony. And those sitting there are the "Minister President" (Head of State) and the Minister for Economics, Labor and Traffic. 2 of 21, among them 2 Qataris and 2 Union representatives.

2. The company is owned in over 50 pct by the Piech (Porsche) family, with the state of Lower Saxony holding some 20 pct (Qatar 17 pct and 13 pct spread among other investors/stockholder)

3. The incidents of German cities at times being declared a no-drive zone were down to high particle concentration in the air, an issue peculiar to Diesel engines as is the often (unacceptably) higher emissions of nitroxides. IOW nothing to do with co2 at all.

4. Why Schroeder and Wulff find mention in this context at all remains mysterious, to say the least. Schroeder was no longer heading Lower Saxony by 1998 and Wulff (equally) by 2003. Both dates well before the pretty much inefficient (compared to today) emissions norm IV (Euro 4) was implemented (2005).

5. The Diesel engines were always allowed (unwisely methinks) a higher level of particle and NoX emmission than the petrol (gasoline) engines and the current crisis (not just of VW or other German makes) does not pertain to the latter at all. Where the (not just VW) fraud occurred, it was in falsifying reality to the point of pretending that Diesel engines were approaching the better emission standards of petrol/gasoline motors.

Andalublue said:

I agree that anecdotal evidence can be found to support most positions. I also think that VWs produced in Germany probably have a better reliability record than those produced elsewhere in the US, Mexico, China, India, Russia etc.

My advice would be that if reliability is your top priority (it's not mine particularly) then buy an Opel/Vauxhall.

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..........meaning, by now, buy French. IOW move from GM to PSA (Citroen/Peugeot).

Mycroft said:

The German auto industry understands the result of the US pulling out of the Paris Accords. This action puts them at a competitive disadvantage...making US automaker's position stronger. The German auto industry will have to respond...and will likely pressure Merkel to back off her environmental position.

Click to expand...

Andalublue said:

They'll just have to live with it. Conversely, US manufacturers not producing cars to globally-agreed standards will be at a competitive disadvantage in exporting their products to Paris-compliant countries. There may well be tariffs and impediments placed on US-manufactured vehicles if those vehicles do not comply with Paris standards.

Admittedly, the EU exports far, far more vehicles than the US does, but still the potential hit the US motor industry's export ability might take could outweigh any benefit they might gain from not complying with the Paris agreement.

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Andy pretty much sums up what I was saying. Have to say though, there are agreements set for the long term which auto manufacturers in the EU are working towards which will drive design for a long time. We're already seeing that and enlightened US manufacturers like Tesla are going to make sure the US doesn't fall behind but other manufacturers will have to work harder to sell the same tired old technology abroad.

I think there is a little difference in companies doing (criminal) lying and Presidents doing (ignorant and dangerous) lying: pretending there is no global warming made by humans.