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Paris gun battle

It was reported here quite a few hours ago that Islamic State gave a false name for the attacker. Apparently he is a French National, his name is Karim Cheurfi, was convicted of attacking a police officer in 2001, had been under investigation by anti terrorism officers for some time, and was arrested in February on suspicion of plotting to kill officers but was apparently released because of a lack of evidence.




He has a history of attacks on Police Officers. If the reports are accurate, he should never have been free to begin with.

One of the many dangers of living in a free society, is that if we wish to maintain our freedom and liberty, we sometimes have to risk personal harm rather than risking allowing the government to trample on that very freedom and liberty. When we require a high bar of burden on the state to ensure they can prove their charges against us, rather than allowing the government to put whomever they deem a threat into prison, we sometimes will pay the price for our freedom in blood and treasure. Either at home, as was done here, or overseas in foreign lands as is going on in the Middle East and other regions of the world where those that wish to eliminate our freedom and liberty all together, gather in force to train and prepare to attack us at home.

As for me, I prefer to err on the side of protecting our freedom and liberty, and make the conscious choice to risk harm by others in exchange. From what I know of you, I believe you would as well. It's not a great choice, but it preserves our freedom and liberty, and for that, it's the only choice.
 
I'll stop saying it when my sense of common decency (propriety included) goes completely South.



So you will just keep mourning this one and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next..... When will you stop mourning and demand something be done?
 
yawn.

Bye.

What? You can't tolerate truth?

The reports I read say that he used an automatic weapon. Seems to me that since they are banned in France, it would be awfully hard for your average French citizen to get one without assistance.

(Shouldnt need to be said...but that is not a comment on gun control but rather the likelihood that others were in some form involved)

Well said sir. The deniers keep denying the obvious.

Clarify please.

Are you advocating for all immigration to cease or just immigration for all Muslims?

I can't speak for others, but as I see it, immigration for those who cause most of the problems, should be halted, immediately. This is not rocket science.

"A piece of paper that was found in his pocket praised ISIS and other papers found between seats in his vehicle showed addresses of various police departments. In the trunk of his car, investigators found a black bag containing a pump-action shotgun, knives, scissors and a Koran, according to Molins."
Man who tipped off authorities about missing Tenn. student Elizabeth Thomas describes 'clues' - ABC News


One of the many dangers of living in a free society, is that if we wish to maintain our freedom and liberty, we sometimes have to risk personal harm rather than risking allowing the government to trample on that very freedom and liberty. When we require a high bar of burden on the state to ensure they can prove their charges against us, rather than allowing the government to put whomever they deem a threat into prison, we sometimes will pay the price for our freedom in blood and treasure. Either at home, as was done here, or overseas in foreign lands as is going on in the Middle East and other regions of the world where those that wish to eliminate our freedom and liberty all together, gather in force to train and prepare to attack us at home.

As for me, I prefer to err on the side of protecting our freedom and liberty, and make the conscious choice to risk harm by others in exchange. From what I know of you, I believe you would as well. It's not a great choice, but it preserves our freedom and liberty, and for that, it's the only choice.

I agree.

So you will just keep mourning this one and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next..... When will you stop mourning and demand something be done?

Excellent question. Seems like we face the same ignorance in the US.
 
~ Actually they are not more commonplace if we look over decades.

OK, we're getting into Apples and Oranges here. Yeah, we had Baader Meinhof / IRA / Basque separatists etc so I acknowledge that. Instead of heading down that deflection, I am addressing the mainly jihadi attacks here in Europe. These attacks have become far more commonplace. Please don't introduce white gunmen gun babies or gunkid's killing white people in the USA - this is about Europe.

~ A lot of which is already being done. Why not just close the Internet and intern all Muslims? Go all out Trump on the situation!

Or we could discuss the situation without mentioning Trump and the USA?


~ However it is hard to recruit people in a community that feels under attack by authorities, the press and everyone outside the community.

Finally, you address the subject. Well done. I wanted to make the point about changing that scenario so that more muslims would join. You are aware more muslims have joined jihadi groups than joined the UK armed forces in the last 30 years?

~ No what we really need, is to stop blaming all Muslims and Islam for the criminal acts of the few. When a Muslim abuses a child, then it is Islams fault and the fault of all Muslims, but when a Christian does it, it is not the fault of Christianity or all Christians. Hypocrisy at its best and THAT has to stop. We have to work with the Muslim communities but that wont happen effectively if we continue to attack all Muslims for the criminal acts of the few..

OK, you're speaking to the American crowd here and not to me.

~ Just look at the Dortmund bus attack... instantly Muslims were blamed, and yet we now know it was German-Russian that did it, to earn money off the Dortmund shares.. Now will all Germans be blamed for this? Russians are already by some, even though he is a German citizen... it seems his Russian ethnicity is more important as it is being mentioned more than his German citizenship.. How about blaming greed and capitalism? Or maybe he is just a common criminal...

When Brevik did his terror attack, did we blame all Norwegians and Christians for to having mind reading capabilities and prevented the attack? Of course not, and yet we expect Muslims to do so..

The hypocrisy issue is a serious problem with society... and it is creating a "we against them", and driving whole countries apart down religious lines.. and that is wrong.

Hyperbole aside - it is recognisably easier to get white secret agents into white terror groups as we did against combat 18 (I am repeating myself here) but we need to encourage muslims who feel they have something to lose if the whole of islam continues to be blames for the acts of a few. These need to be encouraged to join, to train and be our eyes in such groups.

That's what I am talking about.
 
One of the many dangers of living in a free society, is that if we wish to maintain our freedom and liberty, we sometimes have to risk personal harm rather than risking allowing the government to trample on that very freedom and liberty. When we require a high bar of burden on the state to ensure they can prove their charges against us, rather than allowing the government to put whomever they deem a threat into prison, we sometimes will pay the price for our freedom in blood and treasure. Either at home, as was done here, or overseas in foreign lands as is going on in the Middle East and other regions of the world where those that wish to eliminate our freedom and liberty all together, gather in force to train and prepare to attack us at home.

As for me, I prefer to err on the side of protecting our freedom and liberty, and make the conscious choice to risk harm by others in exchange. From what I know of you, I believe you would as well. It's not a great choice, but it preserves our freedom and liberty, and for that, it's the only choice.
Well stated.

Not to clutter up a sound philosophy with detail;), nevertheless in the case of this perp one has to differentiate between somebody being reasonably deemed as prone to criminal acts and somebody being caught in the act of actually having entered the planning stage of those (already).

If we blur the lines of this distinction we're on the way to making precautionary arrests alone on looks, ethnicity and political and/or religious stance. Since those parameters can always be "reasonably" made into parameters for subsequent action.

Plenty of examples in history of where that leads.

Not to be misunderstood here, proven membership in a terrorist organization "reasonably" fulfils the criteria of being in the planning stage and justifies precautionary action IMO.

Being Muslim all on its own does not.

Not even with previous criminal acts having been committed and already penalized by due lawful process, thus providing a criminal record.
 
The reports I read say that he used an automatic weapon. Seems to me that since they are banned in France, it would be awfully hard for your average French citizen to get one without assistance.

(Shouldnt need to be said...but that is not a comment on gun control but rather the likelihood that others were in some form involved)
Ever heard of the darker channels of procurement?

I can get a Zastava M70 (Serbian built AK-47 spin-off) by simply travelling to Marseille and entering the right quarters, without having to join any terrorist group or even the local gun-running mafia.

Heck, I can even save myself that trouble by going into the Dark Net and hoping that the advertiser is not an undercover cop. Nine out of ten times my hope will be fulfilled.
 
What? You can't tolerate truth?....................~
If claims that merely represent opinion (corroborated by nothing) present truth to you, good luck.
 
So you will just keep mourning this one and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next..... When will you stop mourning and demand something be done?
You don't know what I demand.

And from my expression of condolences you cannot.
 
~..............................this is about Europe.



Or we could discuss the situation without mentioning Trump and the USA?................~
Indeed.

"Going all out Le Pen" in this here context would have sufficed as example completely.

It gets kind of silly if we gripe about some of our cross-pond posters constantly bringing their politicos into here when we then do it ourselves.
 
OK, we're getting into Apples and Oranges here. Yeah, we had Baader Meinhof / IRA / Basque separatists etc so I acknowledge that. Instead of heading down that deflection, I am addressing the mainly jihadi attacks here in Europe. These attacks have become far more commonplace. Please don't introduce white gunmen gun babies or gunkid's killing white people in the USA - this is about Europe.

Going from zero to 1 or 2 is "more common" but lets be real here. You have a bigger chance of getting hit by a falling airplane than by an Jihadist attack in Europe.

Or we could discuss the situation without mentioning Trump and the USA?

You can switch Trump with Le Pen or Hitler if you want.

Finally, you address the subject. Well done. I wanted to make the point about changing that scenario so that more muslims would join. You are aware more muslims have joined jihadi groups than joined the UK armed forces in the last 30 years?

So there are under 600 Muslim UK soldiers over the last 30 years? Or are you talking about all jihadists all over the world?

OK, you're speaking to the American crowd here and not to me.

No I am speaking to the racist xenophobic crowd that use minorities as the excuse.

Hyperbole aside - it is recognisably easier to get white secret agents into white terror groups as we did against combat 18 (I am repeating myself here) but we need to encourage muslims who feel they have something to lose if the whole of islam continues to be blames for the acts of a few. These need to be encouraged to join, to train and be our eyes in such groups.

Yes it is easier.. especially when society and government are not marginalising you because of your religion.. which is happening.

The best recruiter for the Jihadists, is people like Donald Trump, Le Pen, whats his name in Holland and half the Tory party in the UK. Those that blame the whole Muslim community for the actions of the few, and use it as an excuse to hit down on said minority they blame for pretty much everything.
 
Indeed.

"Going all out Le Pen" in this here context would have sufficed as example completely.

It gets kind of silly if we gripe about some of our cross-pond posters constantly bringing their politicos into here when we then do it ourselves.

Hey had to wait til Trump fully endorsed Le Pen.. happened overnight!

Could also have used Hitler or even Churchill but the latter would require too much historical context..
 
Going from zero to 1 or 2 is "more common" but lets be real here. You have a bigger chance of getting hit by a falling airplane than by an Jihadist attack in Europe.



You can switch Trump with Le Pen or Hitler if you want.



So there are under 600 Muslim UK soldiers over the last 30 years? Or are you talking about all jihadists all over the world?



No I am speaking to the racist xenophobic crowd that use minorities as the excuse.



Yes it is easier.. especially when society and government are not marginalising you because of your religion.. which is happening.

The best recruiter for the Jihadists, is people like Donald Trump, Le Pen, whats his name in Holland and half the Tory party in the UK. Those that blame the whole Muslim community for the actions of the few, and use it as an excuse to hit down on said minority they blame for pretty much everything.

The actions of a "few", can be countered and stopped by the actions of the "many." The "many" refuse to act and clean up their own house, which to me, translates into "Sharia Law rules", no matter what!
If we have a terrorist or serial rapist/murderer in our town, my entire town will be out looking for this clown. Guns at he ready. That's the difference. Complicity with the evil doers, vs. corralling them and bringing them to justice.
There are communities in America that don't even call the police when one of their own acts out. They deal with him or her, themselves.
As I see it, Europeans and Brits for the most part, would rather let someone else deal with the problems.
 
Hey had to wait til Trump fully endorsed Le Pen.. happened overnight!

Could also have used Hitler or even Churchill but the latter would require too much historical context..

Le Pen, is the only one making any sense, over there. Sharia Law, is NOT the law of the land, but it will be, if good men and women do nothing to stop it.
 
Well stated.
Thank you.

Not to clutter up a sound philosophy with detail;), nevertheless in the case of this perp one has to differentiate between somebody being reasonably deemed as prone to criminal acts and somebody being caught in the act of actually having entered the planning stage of those (already).

If we blur the lines of this distinction we're on the way to making precautionary arrests alone on looks, ethnicity and political and/or religious stance. Since those parameters can always be "reasonably" made into parameters for subsequent action.

Plenty of examples in history of where that leads.

Not to be misunderstood here, proven membership in a terrorist organization "reasonably" fulfils the criteria of being in the planning stage and justifies precautionary action IMO.

Being Muslim all on its own does not.

Not even with previous criminal acts having been committed and already penalized by due lawful process, thus providing a criminal record.

History is replete with too many examples of the government removing people from society with reckless disregard for personal liberty, freedom, or even basic human rights. However, as you state very clearly above, there has to a balance between safety of the whole and liberty of the individual. Finding that balance without threatening either beyond reasonability is what has haunted man for centuries.
 
Thank you.



History is replete with too many examples of the government removing people from society with reckless disregard for personal liberty, freedom, or even basic human rights. However, as you state very clearly above, there has to a balance between safety of the whole and liberty of the individual. Finding that balance without threatening either beyond reasonability is what has haunted man for centuries.

I agree.
 
Hey had to wait til Trump fully endorsed Le Pen.. happened overnight!

Could also have used Hitler or even Churchill but the latter would require too much historical context..
too much historical context.
Yeah, that might pose a problem for some.:lol:
 
Going from zero to 1 or 2 is "more common" but lets be real here. You have a bigger chance of getting hit by a falling airplane than by an Jihadist attack in Europe.

[/sigh] If I'd said there were hundreds of jihadi attacks every week, your comment would have relevance. Stop posting as if you're replying to the American posters please - I'm here to discuss this subject.

~ You can switch Trump with Le Pen or Hitler if you want.

That's not discussing the thread subject... or even in response to what I said.

So there are under 600 Muslim UK soldiers over the last 30 years? Or are you talking about all jihadists all over the world?

I'm talking about the situation in the UK. This is the Europe forum. If I were talking about the world, then obviously Indonesian / Pakistani / Saudi Arabian soldiers in their respective countries have joined and make for higher numbers.

Do you see where hyperbole can lead you? You're too used to discussing serious subjects with some posters and have forgotten how to discuss European matters sensibly.

~ No I am speaking to the racist xenophobic crowd that use minorities as the excuse.

Then I'm wasting my time replying your quotes of my posts?
 
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