Treaty of Utrecht revisited

:mrgreen:

I can see Gibraltar from my house but it's so far away that it takes a clear day to see it. So hoping to be sufficiently out of range, it should still be fun watching the coming war.

Seriously though, what is this whole brouhaha about, silly time?:roll:

To wit:

Tory grandee Michael Howard responded to the row by telling Sky's Sophy Ridge that Theresa May would fight to protect Gibraltar just as Margaret Thatcher fought to protect the Falklands from "another Spanish-speaking country".

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Looks like questionable stuff is currently being smoked BOTH sides of the Atlantic.

Somewhat more factual:

It's worth noting at this point that the line about Gibraltar has no legal force. It hands Spain a veto over the terms of a future trade deal, a right which it has already as an EU member. It does not and cannot change the legal rights and obligations concerning the Rock, as Charles Brasted tells the FT in their explainer of the legalities around the Gibraltar line.

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and, where thoughts and comments :2razz: are concerned

But these minor squalls have two consequences for Britain's chances of a good Brexit deal. The first is in sapping diplomatic goodwill among the EU27. The second is in increasing the political risk here at home to Theresa May in striking a deal involving large and continuing payments to the European Union.

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The Gibraltar row has undermined the UK's chances of a good Brexit deal

Nevertheless, should I be breaking out the AK-47 that I'm keeping in reserve for when the hordes come from even further South? Or perhaps take refuge with Andy who lives so far away from the rock that he can't see it at all?
Pray someone alleviate my considerable concern.:lamo

Oh, just to keep the merriment rolling, The Telegraph has gone one better and phoned up a retired rear-admiral to find out if we could still "take" Spain in a fight. (The verdict: "we could still singe the King of Spain's beard", says Rear-Admiral Chris Parry.)

Chagos said:

~ The Gibraltar row has undermined the UK's chances of a good Brexit deal ~

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An early sign of many of the problems we face in getting a good deal. The French for one won't mind putting the boot in on our way out.

Infinite Chaos said:

An early sign of many of the problems we face in getting a good deal. The French for one won't mind putting the boot in on our way out.

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On the principle of "stay calm and carry on", I'll start sweating when Brexit negotiations have reached conclusion. Predicting that I won't be sweating that much then at all.

Only certainty for me being that I won't be moving from here as a result, whichever way things may go.

This always comes up when the Tories need to deflect away from something. The Spanish barely talk about and even the Spanish forigen minister has come out and said "stay calm" to the freaking British.

Of course there has to be a solution around Gibraltar, just as there has to be a solution about Northern Ireland and the British military bases on Cyprus. They will all go from being within the EU to being outside and hence the borders will become external, which means that the status quo cant go on.

It is the British that are taking this to a whole new level and one has to ask why? Is it a pitiful attempt to distract from a failing exit plan? Or is it to distract from Northern Ireland, which will be a much bigger problem than the Rock...

Interesting times ahead...

It's Project Deflect. The Tories are getting jittery about the negotiations. They are setting up possible deflections onto potential scapegoats. It's particularly telling that it is coming from a former party leader so that there is both authority in his declaration and also plausible deniability for current leaders. It's also ironic that Howard evoked the ghost of Maggie, who used the very same tactic of declaring war on Argentina in order to deflect from extraordinary unpopularity at home. Perhaps they think no one will work it out.

Andalublue said:

It's Project Deflect. The Tories are getting jittery about the negotiations. They are setting up possible deflections onto potential scapegoats. It's particularly telling that it is coming from a former party leader so that there is both authority in his declaration and also plausible deniability for current leaders. It's also ironic that Howard evoked the ghost of Maggie, who used the very same tactic of declaring war on Argentina in order to deflect from extraordinary unpopularity at home. Perhaps they think no one will work it out.

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learned a new word today from a local when I tried to translate strawman fallacy as "argumento hombre de paja". When asked what I was trying to refer to I mentioned this row.

"falacia espantapájaros" he beamed back at me. Followed by laughter.

I like it, scarecrow seems far more apt.

as he waved his shotgun gaily,
he'll now go there twice daily.

"There" being Gibraltar, of course.:mrgreen:

Interesting (perhaps) in the context of all this is that Spain has officially stated that it will not (any longer) oppose Scottish membership in the EU, should Scotland actually secede from UK and subsequently apply.

No mention was made of reclaiming Las Malvinas (Falklands) though and, AFAIK none of reclaiming Texas either.:rofl

Andalublue said:

It's Project Deflect. The Tories are getting jittery about the negotiations. They are setting up possible deflections onto potential scapegoats. It's particularly telling that it is coming from a former party leader so that there is both authority in his declaration and also plausible deniability for current leaders. It's also ironic that Howard evoked the ghost of Maggie, who used the very same tactic of declaring war on Argentina in order to deflect from extraordinary unpopularity at home. Perhaps they think no one will work it out.

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You were doing so well until you got to the "declare war on Argentina" section. The Argentine invasion of the sovereign British territory (the Falklands) had a large part to play in the war...

Infinite Chaos said:

You were doing so well until you got to the "declare war on Argentina" section. The Argentine invasion of the sovereign British territory (the Falklands) had a large part to play in the war...

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Yeah, sorry about that. We've debated this into the ground previously. I shouldn't have made that comment, it was off-topic.

Infinite Chaos said:

You were doing so well until you got to the "declare war on Argentina" section. The Argentine invasion of the sovereign British territory (the Falklands) had a large part to play in the war...

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Andalublue said:

Yeah, sorry about that. We've debated this into the ground previously. I shouldn't have made that comment, it was off-topic.

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Frankly I don't see how comparing tactics arrived at under similar circumstances (for similar reasons of certain interested parties) constitutes going OT. Especially when in the here and now the ghost of there and then is summoned.

That Falklands was not primarily about re-gaining popular support back home is of course not disputable. That it served that purpose as well is however not disputable either.

That said I don't want to go shift the theatre of attention back down the Atlantic either, so I'll leave this as well now. Not, however, without the parting observation that actually neither side officially declared war in that conflict.

Just for the record.

Chagos said:

Frankly I don't see how comparing tactics arrived at under similar circumstances (for similar reasons of certain interested parties) constitutes going OT. Especially when in the here and now the ghost of there and then is summoned.

That Falklands was not primarily about re-gaining popular support back home is of course not disputable. That it served that purpose as well is however not disputable either.

That said I don't want to go shift the theatre of attention back down the Atlantic either, so I'll leave this as well now. Not, however, without the parting observation that actually neither side officially declared war in that conflict.

Just for the record.

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You could have just said "OK..." :mrgreen:

Infinite Chaos said:

You could have just said "OK..." :mrgreen:

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That is NOT the Chagos way. Nor would we want it to be! eace

Infinite Chaos said:

You could have just said "OK..." :mrgreen:

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Sure thing but diarrhea of the jawbone needs outlets. :mrgreen: